| Author | Message | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 287 Registered: 9-2006  |
is that It seems to me the sad fact, especially in the Pentecostal churches the flesh side of man dare not show up on Sunday morning, we are too busy working on our perfection to put up with the likes of that, got to get those imperfections out of the way and look spiritual. Luther confessed several hours a day until his confessor in pure frustration told him "Go out and do something worthy of confession! Stop bringing me these little peccadilos." He tells us that he hated the righteousness of God because it was that which condemned. I imagine when Luther finally got it a true fellowship with the Lord began. And we just seem to have to learn the same hard lesson over and over, tis by grace and not of ourselves. How many of us harbor a secret hate/resentment because we canít seem to measure up to what we think God expects of us? If we canít even measure up too what we think the church expects of us then how can we measure up to what we think God expects of us? I think many of us are so busy making bricks of perfection we have no time to enjoy the saviors company, and heaven forbid we show any weakness to other Christians at church. To show weakness to someone in the church is like showing weakness to a hungry bear robbed of her whelps. Here we are having been saved by grace and then trying to maintain our relationship to God thru our obedience-works. Years ago after God literally reached down and picked me up while I was in a drunken stupor showing himself to me, I almost immediately began to try to earn the rest of my salvation, how is that for cognitive dissonance? I felt then that I had to perform perfection in order to stay saved and the suffrage began, and a constant wringing of the hands. I think that is the position of a good many churches today, we are to busy staying saved to have much of a relationship with Jesus and heaven help us if we have been saved twenty even thirty years and have not arrived at perfection. One church I went to said that people left the church because they did not want to get rid of sin in their life and that was the reason their congregation was so small, I guess the rest had finally found perfection since they were still there, all 20 of them. Now I am not opting for deliberate filthiness of the flesh and mind, the Bible doesnít teach that, but does the Bible teach that we are to be so wrapped up and worried trying to obtain perfection that we have no real time for him because we spend so much time thinking about that and wrapped up in it? So does this kind of perfectionistic spirituality lead to freedom or back again to bondage? We some of us ìloseî our salvation at the rate of several times a day. How can we have fellowship with one another if we canít be comfortable enough to let our guard down for one moment? Is there any fellowship possible in that? It seems to me that true fellowship would be to have a friend whom we can be comfortable with and if we canít be comfortable with one another then how is it that we can be comfortable with Jesus whom we have not seen? Is our view of God someone who sits with a rod ready to whack us upside the head in our moments of weakness in this body of flesh that we live in day in and day out? Just observe the guardedness with which we greet one another on Sunday morning? ìBrother how is it with you?î ìEverything is just hunky doryî and we continue to hide the struggles, hurt and loneliness that we live in day by day. We know a true friend will keep his trap shut and not go public with everything we confide in them, anybody in church you know you can trust? What we have is the ìFake it till you make itî syndrome, the only problem is we never make it as for as perfection goes so how is a comfortable fellowship possible with one another or with God? I think what we sometimes, if not all the time, end up doing is attempt breaking the bread of Christ without the ability to truly discern the bread and wine too fellowship with one another and it just seems to me that without that fellowship it cannot be done. Jesus said (John 15:12 KJV) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. And further more he said (John 15:14 KJV) Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Is that how he loves us, the same guarded way we love one another? Do we go into our time of fellowship with him the same guarded way? And if so would you think that he would consider that quality time, the same as spending time completely comfortable with a trust worthy friend? Truth is I am more comfortable around sinners than I am with the church crowd and I challenge that. What, I just have to take some kind of leap of faith and call it fellowship and never challenge anything? Oh but if you challenge you will be ostracized and taken out of the loop altogether. Better not rock any boats, let sleeping dogs lie and let well enough alone. Can we describe our church as open, honest, loving, true friendship, trustworthiness and caring (or) somber, guarded, distant and superficial at skin level? Everyone singing praise to God with our gates tightly shut against the fear and sometimes even loathing of one another and roped into the loneliness of our own world without the intended strength and fellowship God must have intended his church to have, group corporately and body particulate. I am just wondering if we can have a true fellowship with the Lord Jesus and be so uncomfortable with one another is all, I have no particular nit to pick. I would be glad if someone can show me where my thinking has went wrong and if so correct me. I am not for making the church into a social club but one of true outreach; if we can have a vertical and horizontal relationship with Christ then I think people will want that. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 288 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dear faf friends, I put this up there because I thought you might like a view from the angel of a non-Adventist Evangelical. It is rather long but I could see no way to shorten it. I have enjoyed your fellowship here but I do feel as though I probably have written too much, maybe this Article will make it clear why. If I have hogged the forum I will try to be a better lurker rather than tire you. I do want to be clear that this view is my own and not necessarily the view of any evangelical church. You as former Adventist have had your problems in coming to know the savior in a personal way but we evangelicals have also had ours. I am in hopes that this will benefit you in some way. Forgive me if you think it out of bounds or if I have been out of bounds in any other way. Anyway, with some misgivings I have decided to go ahead and post. River | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2444 Registered: 3-2005 |
River, You make some excellent points. Don't go away! It is not only Adventists who are into perfectionism. It is true that Pentecostal chuches are known more for being works oriented to stay saved, because many of them believe that you can lose and gain your salvation the same day as SDAs also believe. We have to keep our eyes on the Lord Jesus Christ as a powerful Savior, not the weak savior that so many today view Him. The main reason I left Adventism is because of their view of Jesus not completing the atonement at the cross, and when 1844 was found to be false, then the whole false system of works salvation is gone. Since leaving Adventism, I have come to know a Savior who is all powerful to save. He chose me--I couldn't have possibly chosen Him. I was dead spiritually. And since He actually paid for my sins at Calvary, and my salvation was sealed permanently there, after being predestined before time began, then Christ also goes after all his sheep, until all of His sheep are safe, and He sends His Comforter and Spirit to be a guarantee against any possibility of being lost. The problem is that SDAs, Roman Catholics, and even the former mega-church I attended, and Pentecostals, and many other churches all believe that there is something YOU have to do to STAY SAVED. It depends on YOU abiding every day, or I heard one of my former non-SDA pastors say that since you used your free-will to become saved, you can use your free-will to become unsaved. This is a frightening thought. With this kind of theology, no wonder there is so much anxiety over salvation, and people don't feel saved. God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of joy and a sure anchor of hope that reaches behind the curtain (Hebrews 6) an Anchor and a Mediator which we didn't experience in Adventism because of the fear of the Investigative Judgment, and unfortunately there are other churches who are regarded as evangelical, who also teach a form of fear with regard to their salvation being lost. Praise God for that sure and Blessed Hope! Stan | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5153 Registered: 12-2003  |
River, you make some very good points. It's true that many Christian communities do not allow one another to be who they really are. That was one of the points in Dave Dykes' article in the last Proclamation that I liked so much. In his discussion of legalistic congregations as compared to grace-filled ones, one of his points was that in a legalistic congregation people couldn't admit their faults and weaknesses without threat of being marginalized. In fact, one of the most startling aspects of being around true Christians has been, for me, observing them openly admitting their fears and struggles and allowing me and others to pray for them and their families. I will never forget when I first joined Moms In Touch at our boys' school the first year we were out of Adventism. One mom prayed one day, "Oh, Lord, thank you that my son was caught cheating on a Bible test. You know I have always asked you to allow my children not to get away with sin if they fall into temptation, and I thank you that the teacher caught him and that he has had to face the consequences for his cheating." She went on to pray for his heart transformation. I was SO SHOCKED that a mom would actually admit her kid's sin in front of other moms (my experiences with Adventist home and school moms was still too fresh) that my eyes popped open in a startle response. I will never forget that momentóthe huge lesson I learned about accountability and vulnerability and the need to allow others to know and pray for our weaknesses in a safe environment. I'm not aware of anyone's being upset with any of your posts at any time, River. You always are honest, sensitive to others, and thought-provoking. Is there something you have observed here that makes you feel we are uncomfortable with one another? I admit I'm a bit dense this time...I'm not sure what you are addressing. If you wish to email me privately about something, please do so. My email is proclamation@gmail.com I would like to be able to respond to your concern! Thanks! Colleen | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2446 Registered: 3-2005 |
Here is an interesting quote from Michael Horton's book "Putting Amazing Back Into Grace", which illustrates the point River is making with regard to even some non SDA churches: "I was raised in a solid Christian home, with the nurture of daily devotions and the simple piety of believing parents, they offered me a warm, supportive meaningful environment. But in my teenage years, the same cliches, slogans, and experiences which had provided a sense of being "in" and of belonging to a group, began to appear shallow and trite. The rules which I had never questioned began to choke me. My Christian school became my prison. In my senior year in High School, I had a Bible instructor who took particular delight in enumerating the things for which we could be lost. If, for instance we were to die with an unconfessed sin, we would be eternally lost. The implications haunted me, and since I knew I was not good enough, it continued to have a serious effect. What if I screwed up some Saturday night and Jesus came back before I could walk down the aisle on Sunday AGAIN! What if I couldn't remember a particular sin in order to confess it? There were so many ways I could lose my soul!" ------------------------------------------------ I have to say that I was blown away after reading this experience from Michael Horton, now one of the hosts of the White Horse Inn, www.whitehorseinn.org and editor of "Modern Reformation" magazine. His experience was exactly like my experience in Academy. How about yours? Stan | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 335 Registered: 12-2004 |
River, Your article is so true, and today, is manna from heaven for me. The most difficult adjustment I am having to make in my life right now, is learning to be Authentic and Honest with people. The guard has been up for over 45 years and it has about sufficated me. Many people become very uncomfortable with authentic and honest. The facades we carry around for so many years are the people our friends and family have come to know. When the real you steps forward, and the mask is put down, they often do not like the real you anymore. There is a price to pay for authenticity, however the price of putting the facade back on is even greater. That price is to deny who you are, and quite possibly the YOU that God wants you to be. Once again, thank-you for this post you wrote. I cannot agree more. Randy | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 630 Registered: 1-2003  |
Dear River, I must be missing something here? I have enjoyed your comments very much. In fact I'd been blessed very much because they come from a different perspective than some FAF people. I know most of my growth has come from nonSDAs and even nonFAFs. Sorry guys. Not that I'm not blessed being here and reading many of the insightful comments that are left. I am deeply blessed by many here I do feel that I'll never measure up to the standard of nonSDAism that is expected by some here. I realize this may be just me and just my issue and no one elses. It seems that if an SDA person makes a comment it is automatically branded a false gospel but if a reformed theologian makes the comment it is sacred and unchanging truth. I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't have it all worked out as well as most here seem to. I'm not sure I ever will. I do know He died for me and I can rest in that assurance of my salvation and more than just salvation, He has given me a new life in Him now and not something I must wait for the future to participate in and enjoy. Folks my theology may be wrong in some areas, In fact I'm sure it is, but He has given me more peace and assurance in the past couple of years than all the decades before. (saying this as probably the senior if not actually the senior person online here)  Actually I don't think he cares that much about some of the details of theology. He just wants me to commune and spend time with Him. I thank Him often that I am His child even when I don't have it as together as others. I seek a passionate relationship with HIM. For those of you who have met me you know it will probably be a quiet passion but then who knows what He will do through me. In Him, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 631 Registered: 1-2003 |
Sorry everyone I didn't mean to send that post but pushed the wrong button. Reading it over I'm not sure it makes sense, I'm just feeling very vulnerble today. God is doing something and my emotions are right out there. I can't find out how, is there a way to delete a post after it is sent? In Him, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 289 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen, No I do not have any concerns about the forum or anything anyone said, you are all a great bunch of people, and I certainly am not uncomfortable with you folk, in fact you folk have become like a family to me and I have been able to open up and really discuss issues where otherwise I would be almost completely alone and I love to write on the forum. Itís just that I think I write too much sometimes and bore people with my drivel. Of course I spend about six hours a day on the keyboard so its nothing for me two ream off a page or two. No concerns. Stan, I was born again, shall we say into to the Pentecostal church, now I wouldnít change denominations but they do have a serious issue with a works type stay saved thing that I have come to believe after suffering for years with cognitive dissonance and fear about my salvation and uncertainty, I guess you could say I was like Luther only I was too lazy to do as he did, finally I was out on the tractor and as I worked a I thought about things as usual and I suddenly became so frustrated with it all and suddenly the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart and mind, he said ìEnjoy the salvation that I have given you!î and that was my breaking point, I finished that field with joy unspeakable and full of glory and from that point on I have never looked back and I donít intend too. I can now do a mental scan of the whole Bible without feeling condemned about my imperfection, no, the Adventist donít have a corner on works, the Arminians just have a slightly different twist is all. The Adventist for the most part never claim it and the Arminians think you can lose it so both seem too strive much the same way. The cognitive dissonance comes in when God saves a person and then we think itís up to us to keep ourselves now doesnít that sound just a bit ridicules? Now of course thatís not all Pentecostals but an awful lot of them. What I wrote up there sound a little similar to your experience in Adventism? River | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2447 Registered: 3-2005 |
Actually Richard, your post that you wanted deleted has a lot of truth, and maybe it was meant to be sent. I took note of this comment Richard: "It seems that if an SDA person makes a comment it is automatically branded a false gospel but if a reformed theologian makes the comment it is sacred and unchanging truth." ------------------------------------------------ I think you are right. We need to evaluate truth based on scripture alone, and not the label of the person who said it. I like your gentle spirit, and I have been blessed by your posts. Stan | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 290 Registered: 9-2006 |
Richard, It was a good post.Just stay with what you have and God will add more. be encouraged today. God cares. There's a bunch on here don't have it altogether yet, me being the most needy. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 291 Registered: 9-2006 |
Richard, If I ever do get it all together though, I'll announce it and maybe we can bake a cake, tie a ribbon round my neck and stamp me "Done". | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3202 Registered: 3-2004  |
River, That will only happen in Heaven for any of us. But the good thing is we will all be there to celebrate. Most importantly, Jesus will be there and that will be so joyous. I am looking forward to that. I am so thankful He does not let go of us once he has a hold of us. Thank you God. You are awesome. Diana | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 337 Registered: 6-2005 |
Richard, Glad you didnt erase your post. Amen. River, I am blessed by your posts, and would even enjoy the long ones, if you would put a blank line or two between you paragraphs! Then I could go back and reread parts I want to ponder! I appreciate this thread. I have only recently begun to understand how completely phony, unauthentic, hypocritical I have been in my religious life, for as long as I can remember. I can blame it on SDA upbringing, social learning, denial, fooling myself, etc etc., but the bottom line is, I have not been honest. I have begun to work on this, and repent, and ask for conviction when this happens. For me, the deception and dishonesy about my spirtual life to self and others and God is almost automatic. To quote ACOA rhetoric, "I lie, when it is just as easy to tell the truth". For instance, when praying, I pray "God, I really want to forgive this person, but I just cant seem to do it..." Then I catch myself in the lie, and ammend my prayer, "God, you tell me to forgive, and there is not a bone in my body that wants to forgive this person, I would rather brood and nurse the wound, and imagine them with dire consequences...So please, grant me Your heart to forgive........etc. etc. This kind of honesty is so new to me. So refreshing, and so unnatural. I agree Randy, people are shocked with honesty, and dont know what to do with it! But I believe, like Colleen experienced, that it can be a powerful witness to a completely different relationship with Christ and Christ followers. Lori 4excape@bellsouth.net | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 293 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well, lets just take honesty with one another for a moment, should we discuss our deepest private lives, maybe things we are shamed of with friends or church people? NOT, there are some things better taken up in honesty with God and kept between us and him, he alone has the power too put our hearts at rest. What we should not do as friends or church corporately is go expecting everyone to be perfect and without sin, it wonít kill us to admit that we are not perfect and we cannot expect some sort of performance from others that is impossible for them to deliver on. the results of this kind of perfectionistic spirituality that I talked about leads to everyone putting on a false face, thatís why I titled this post ìExcuse me while I hideî. We every one of us are in a different place in our advancement spiritually and cleaned up wise fleshly. Some may have external habits such as cigarette or other tobacco use that they simply donít have the power within themselves to overcome and may never overcome, these are visible habits, in short they struggle, and the minute the church finds out, especially in the Pentecostal circles, itís a downer. Now these same people may spend more time with God than æ of the congregation, so everybody puts their mask on and heads for church and this kind of perfectionistic spirituality actually hinders folk, they become wary of one another, the smoker hides his cigarettes and old sister blum that has the hots for her neighbor and old brother Cal that just cussed out his prized shoat goes and brakes the bread and wine of the body of Christ not discerning that there is a horizontal as well as a vertical, failing to show any real love and concern for one another for fear of someone finding out that they are not perfect after all. O.K. here has been my own experience in the 35 years since the Lord reached down and inexplicably set me on a different road, it has been 35 years of struggle with poverty, habits, depression, shouldering the problems of wayward children and their problems and that stacked on problems of a dysfunctional family I left puberty with, that was so bad I left home at 15, joined the Navy at 16 and then did a stint in the army, add about 13 or so years of alcoholism on that, you want scars, I gottem, but I donít feel a bit sorry for myself, I am still fairly spry and I got all my innerds and limbs (getting stiff) but still there, but perfection has eluded me, maybe when they handed out brains I thought they said rain and headed for cover. I have never had to stay overnight in a hospital bed, just had my wounds patched up and sent home so I got lots of things to be thankful for. In spite of all that I met with the Lord this morning, read my Bible and that I know of he didnít upbraid me because of my imperfections, he was the same kind Lord that I have known the past 35 years. Bless his Holy name. River P.S. Its the Lord that does the keeping. | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 773 Registered: 7-2004 |
GREAT thread, River! Thank you so much. Authenticity is my new word, my new way of living, it seems, for this past year. It seems the word pops up in my Bible study a great deal. I think that is what the sanctification of God boils down to. Part of living holy lives through the grace of God is being authentic and honest. "...May the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love...so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before God..." 1 Thess. 3:12,13 - One cannot be authentic and increase and abound. Ultimately it is God's hold on my life and NOT my weak effort to hold onto God that counts. When I am living authentically in Christ, God's hold brings peace that passes understanding and it is the truth that sets us free. I agree whole heartedly with you, River, that the desire "to do" and "to be" keeps us from this authenticity. It is not just SDAs who are alive to the law and bound by the laws...Paul talks to these Christians in Romans 7 - It is only when we die to the law that we are free to no longer be what we were...those people living with their masks glued on tight. Part of being free in Jesus is putting away fear of people finding out our imperfections and finding fellowship with God and others that far exceed our wildest dreams. I am raising my cup of hot chocolate to you on this cold Montana night my authentic friend River! Denise | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5154 Registered: 12-2003 |
Oh, Denise, thank you for your well-stated comments. You're so right: we have to completely die to the law as we are born in Jesus before we can hope to be free from our fears of people knowing our weaknesses. God wastes nothing in our lives, and He redeems EVERYTHING we submit to Him. I'm seeing that when we finally risk accepting the truth about Jesus, He proceeds to reveal to us the truth about ourselvesóand sets us free from our own deep bondage. Sometimes we don't want to know the truth about ourselves, and when we resist, we tend to "get stuck" spiritually. I often pray that God will show me what I need to know, keep me grounded in truth and planted in reality, and do in me what He knows needs to be done. I really have no ability to see my own flaws without His help. And I don't like to see them! Yet He asks me to be willing to know the truth about myself as surely as He asks me to know the truth about Him. I believe we can't separate knowing Jesus from learning to recognize our own brokenness. It is actually one of His gifts to us when He shows us our own sin. River, thank you for starting this thread, and thank you for being so open with us. You are good for us all. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 294 Registered: 9-2006 |
The kind of perfectionistic spiriuality that I see in some Pentecostal circles is, in my own opinion, a sort of ìPull yourself up by your own bootstrapsî type of thing and I believe does hender them and actually holds back folks who have lots of love and ministry to give if only given a chance to be themselves, I think the truth is that we are all just broken people on the mend and we give it names like sanctification and glorification but the word sanctification means consecration or dedication to some thing, not spiritual perfection. Now I am not saying that we should love and hang on to known problems of sin in our lives, I am not saying that at all, what I am trying to address is a common sense approach to reality. My Son made the statement ìDad, God is peeling me like an onionî now I donít remember any of the rest of the conversation we had that day but sometimes I pick up a gold nugget such as that and store it away and bring it back out when needed. Consider the lowly onion, we begin too peel the thin dry useless layers of skin away one by one, layer on layer until finally we get down to edible portions. It is God who is doing the peeling and an onion canít peel another onion if you can get what I am trying to say. That is about as far as that metaphor needs to go. The peel representing sin, habits and such like. Nevertheless what we can do is minister to one another in love and understanding, there is absolutely no reason that I can see for us put on a mask for the benefit of others and try to appear something that we are not for fear of losing our place in the ministry or to be made to feel lower than a snakes belly. I have just about come to the point that if God has accepted me in my condition then if people do not accept me then God is able to take me up and make me stand in spite of opinion. My Bible says that he will never leave me nor forsake me and you and you and I am just simple enough to believe him. In the words of Ronald Reagan ìMr. Gorbachav, tear down that wallî. Now I have no desire to pull the thinking of this forum off from itís intended purpose which I think is too enable the former Adventist to minister too and encourage one another or else I read Colleen and Richard wrong, so I will say nothing else of Pentecostalism, but somehow I think the subject matter ties in. My question being, if we canít reach each other I just do not know how we will be able to reach our Adventist friends, not that you are not doing that here mind you I am speaking mostly of external circumstance, but just as the question plagues me, if my church that I go to cannot reach one another than I donít know how in the world we will be able to reach our community with any kind of impact. Now today is Sunday and in a few hours, God willing, I will proceed to my own house of worship, to give whatever I can, my intentions are to be clothed with the Lord Jesus Christ and all they are going to get is just Old River and the Holy Spirit abiding. If thatís not good enough, sorry about that, if the Lord demands honesty before him then he, in all probability, demands honesty before men. No, I will not confess my sins to them, I am not Catholic, my Bible says I have an advocate with the Father, it also says (James 5:16 KJV) Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. Not your Sins for crying out loud. Faults means responsibility, error, weakness, not Sin, if ever your church gets off into confessing Sins to one another, stay clear of that kind of thing, there is a world of hurt coming down. I have seen this go on folks and I know what I am talking about. In fact, I have to write a letter to a person this morning that has been hurt badly by just such a thing going on in a church I am not even affiliated with, I just got the backwash. Please know that I am not talking down to you all, I just simply have to warn any unwary soul who might have the propensity to fall into this kind of thing. Enough said. River | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 632 Registered: 1-2003 |
River, I can't speak for everyone (anyone) else but I don't think this is off the purpose of the forum. I know he is slowly unwrapping and peeling the dirt and dirty layers of "onion" from me. He has a real job here and yet I KNOW He is able and oh so willing to continue this process in and through me. Am I saved? YES ! ! Am I all cleaned up and perfect in every word and act? NO ! ! BUT I am His son and He is my ABBA (daddy) and for this I'm eternally grateful. Again, as I said before, I've made a conscious decision to keep my faith simple and uncluttered. In Him, Richard rtruitt@mac.com PS: Thanks for adding some blank lines in your writing, it makes it much easier to read and see "paragraph breaks". You can even add more if you want, it helps me to follow the flow. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 295 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well Richard, I came to a point just like this, I was frustrated because I could not understand salvation, I knew that I was saved but I just could not understand the mechanics of it, I said ìLord how can a man enter heaven while dying in an imperfect state?î I instinctively knew I would never be perfect while living here in this flesh. To make it short I began to see that it was not my perfection that saved me but his perfection, his death, and rising and he gives us his robe of righteousness, when I got that I had too just hang on to that truth for a long while and then he began to grow me in his word. So I just hunkered down there with that simple faith until he was ready to take me further into his word. I knew this, salvation is too important of a question to leave to the teachings of my church or anybody elses church, when I die my church wonít be there to speak for me, what I think is that I will face God alone just as if I was the only one ever born into this world and he will do the talking and I will do the listening when I appear before my maker. So maybe you are right where you need to be for awhile, the cross of Christ is my base camp, I cannot sit here and advise you personally and what I write is not intended to hint and or advice. I want to say this about the forum, because I deal with Adventist day after day, this forum is a safe place where I can come and discuss the issues involved and I do thank God for that and also the sponsors. I can come and discuss these issues without fear of hurting or attacking my Adventist friends, I am hard on Adventism because one of my Adventist friends whom I care for very much cannot have confidence of salvation such as you have confessed that ìYou know you are savedî you see he canít say that and it burdens my heart for him. Because you can hang on to the simple fact of your knowledge of salvation, you put my mind at rest. I know there are times when you will be frustrated but all I can do is encourage you to hang in there, to encourage you in Christ and I do that with sincerity. That simple faith has got many a man through many trials. As for the ìOnionî welcome to the ìOnionî club. River | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2006 |
River, Your comments remind me of my favorite verse in Lamentations 3: "Blessed are those who wait on the Lord". This has given me great comfort and confidence in Him over the years. After all, if we are waiting at the foot of the cross, what better place could we possibly be, regardless of our behavior or feelings? The more we realize what Christ means to us, the more we are inclined to become transformed into His character out of gratitude and admiration. I too am firm in my opposition to adventism, for my parents suffer under the delusion that I am not saved because of leaving "the church". They find it difficult to even discuss my excitement about the journey God has led me on. The intense fear of deception of adventism has locked many into a position of self-doubt and a judgemental skepticism about the Holy Spirit's work with people all around us. To be afraid of the Holy Spirit is a frightening position to find oneself in. Jesus warned us about obstructing the Spirit's work in ours and others' lives. It is indeed very serious business. Adventism to me represents the very worst of spiritual bigotry, not unlike Archie Bunker, who did'nt know much about truth, but he always knew he was right and everyone else was wrong. Sorry about the rant - it's a lousy way to start out the new year. Nevertheless, I feel better now. Steve | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 3210 Registered: 3-2004 |
River, I am in a 12 step program and was in it for a long time before I became a born again Christian. It was there I learned about the peeling of the Onion. It was my 12 step program where I learned how much God loves me, how he wants me to treat and love others and a lot of other things I never learned in the SDA church/schools. The Holy Spirit used the 12 step program to prepare me to leave adventism. I realized, not to long ago, that the Holy Spirit has been working on/in me for a long time and all along I thought it was me. Now I will give credit where credit is due, it was not me. It was God and the Holy Spirit who helped me with raising my son and helped me through life until I was born again. I am so thankful and He is so awesome. Diana | ||
| Aliza Registered user Username: Aliza Post Number: 141 Registered: 8-2006 |
LOL. Another member of the Onion Club here. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5161 Registered: 12-2003 |
As Richard just said to me as I read this thread to him: the "onion club" is showing him that the more that is peeled away, the more he realizes that it's himself that's being peeled away and what he's being compelled to realize is that at the core, he has to disappear so Jesus can be all there is and all he's about. Steve, I agree with you 100%. It is wearying and a bit frightening to hear parents saying that the work of the Holy Spirit is from "another spirit" in our lives. Adventism really is as you say: the worst of spiritual bigotry. I'm sure other religious groups also have their own bigotries, but this one is especially deceptive because it looiks so orthodox on the surface. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 300 Registered: 9-2006 |
Well Colleen, I'll bet Richard is a big ol' "Sweet Onion" all the "Hot Onions" got to stay at least five feet away. |
