| Author | Message | ||
| Blessed Registered user Username: Blessed Post Number: 102 Registered: 1-2007 |
I was just speaking with an evangelical pastor whose wife works at an Adventist nursing home. In our conversation he mentioned that a number of Alliance churches here in Canada rent from Adventists and use their churches on Sundays. He said "if Sunday worship is the mark of the beast how do they justify having that happen in their buildings?" I wasn't sure how to answer that one - any suggestions? Also I am aware that It Is Written USA have seminars (not sure if that is what they call them) on weekends at resorts. I gather that people with money attend and donate to the ministry. Obviously the hotel staff have to work to prepare meals, etc. for the Adventist people. Isn't that breaking the Sabbath by causing other people to work? How is that one justified? I am once again so thankful to be freed from the legalism of this denomination. Blessed | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2149 Registered: 10-2004  |
It's all about the money! They'll do anything for money. But, I've wondered that same thing. It doesn't seem like they could come up with a legitimate answer, does it? Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on September 17, 2007) | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 109 Registered: 6-2007 |
The church we left rented the church out on sunday to another church for years and years. Jeremy is right... all about the $$. Laurie | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 464 Registered: 12-2004 |
Hi Blessed, You have struck on a couple of questions that have always intrigued me. Another example.....I attended the Hope campmeeting in Btitish Columbia for over 40 years every summer. Meals were served on Sabbath in the Lodge, but only for those who had purchased their meal tickets on friday or earlier. Now, a meal ticket is in effect cash in that it "buys" you the meal. The person collecting the tickets was working and being paid. All the kitchen staff were working and being paid, as were the clean up crews. However, if you didn't have a meal ticket you are not allowed in. In hindsight, I of course, find the whole situation very ironic, hypocritical, and hilarious. I think it is called the traditions of man. | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 112 Registered: 6-2007 |
Randy You're right, it is ironic, hypocritical and hilarious. There are countless examples of how adventists "keep" the sabbath while allowing the entire world to work around them for their benefit. It's insane. I think one of my favorite examples involves the camp our church owned. It was adjacent to a state park. Everyone would buy the ticket for admission to the state park on Friday, then go for their nature walk on Saturday by turning in their "Pre-paid" ticket. Insane. And don't forget.... don't even think about going wading in the lake on sabbath. I could go on forever with examples of this. Hypocrisy sums it up. Hypocrisy and insanity. Laurie | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 165 Registered: 4-2005 |
The last I heard (some time ago) the housekeepers at Adventist hospitals were off on Saturday, but the nurses, who were paid (although,very long ago I understand, they tried not to pay them) had to take up the slack. This made no sense to me either as the nurses were usually short staffed on week ends and a day without cleaning staff can really leave the place a mess. The denomination organized a nurses group of some kind and were charging dues. I asked about the purpose--vague answer, and I asked them in what way nurses would benefit from this organization, and no one knew, so I didn't join. Too cynical I guess. It was probably for recruitment purposes-- I didn't think nurses should pay for that. Peggy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1473 Registered: 9-2006  |
Well, after all, these folk who work for our benefit on Saturday are mark of the beaster's, why should not we proud Adventist elect use them and even drub our feet across their back, they will be lost anyway! River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1474 Registered: 9-2006 |
I mean after all they are just meat eating cannibals, whyyy that old River even offered us Possum legs and grits!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6810 Registered: 12-2003  |
Exactly, River! I used to try to mentally solve that dilemma, and I never could. Clearly, the whole world could not BE Adventist, or no one could survive on Sabbath. Power plants, police, rescue personnel, the gas company, the water works, hospitals....everything would have to shut down. You couldn't even have a "skeleton crew" on duty without their breaking the Sabbath. Adventists, like orthodox Jews, depend upon unbelieving "gentiles" for their own existence on Sabbath. There's something wrong with this picture... Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 405 Registered: 3-2005 |
Blessed: I would say that all of the above is true, but most people in the pews don't think in those kind of terms. They are often very sincere, even though their beliefs are seriously and sincerely rooted in heresy. So I would guess that there is a fair amount of rationalization regarding their "witness". In other words, being the laodicean adventist  that I was, I could have used the fact that they rented the church as my witness of Adventism to them. You know...something along the lines of "they'll see the name, they'll see the books, they'll KNOW we worship on Saturday and at least be exposed to the "truth"." I would have then assumed that even if they didn't come on over to the truth at that point, when the tribulation comes, they might make the right decision based on what they've seen. In my experience the grip of their cultic thinking goes so deep that really just about anything can be rationalized. They can even believe it's not about money and to many of "them" it isn't. Even if they do see that it's about the money, they can color it to see it as a means to an end. Patria (Message edited by patriar on September 17, 2007) (Message edited by patriar on September 17, 2007) | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1476 Registered: 9-2006 |
Patria, Of course you are correct, the Adventist folk I know are caring people, they are just locked in a system that determines their borders, the system determines those borders. I painted an unfair picture, true, but still unfair because I was being just a little sarcastic. I must try to keep from using sarcasitaty (now there's a word) to make a point. But it does make one wonder then how one develops such an upside down logic. However it may even be worse to give such an upside down logic a pass. I don't know whether to laugh or cry most of the time these days. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2151 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen wrote: "Adventists, like orthodox Jews, depend upon unbelieving "gentiles" for their own existence on Sabbath." However, at least the Jews don't think that Gentiles need to keep the Sabbath or are sinning by not doing so. They also don't believe that Gentiles need to convert to Judaism. Jeremy | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 407 Registered: 3-2005 |
River! I wasn't reprimanding you or anyone else. I promise! Those were just the thougths that I had. ha! I like your new word. Doesn't it seem like people are duped into crazy thinking a lot!? I don't know if this is correct or not, but it seems to me that people don't often want to do the hard work of thinking something through for themselves. I was recently reprimanded by someone I (still) highly respect, no adore!, for refusing to accept the work of another pastor who, by way of a book, is purporting that there is a formula for achieving spiritual transformation! Good gravy. We already have that. Colossians 1:6 says that when we receive the Gospel, the fruit is "constantly increasing". What can we add to that?! Nothing. That kind of thinking just sets a person up to receive erroneous thinking. Their eyes are off of Jesus. sigh... Well in all fairness it wasn't for refusing to accept it, it was for being so VOCAL about it.  . We have a fairly large group of Former Adventists at my church and two of us are usually in cahoots causing trouble asking all kinds of annoying questions. But I tell you what, I will follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit no matter WHO gets irritated and honestly, this person wouldn't ask any less. I know it's not easy to listen to us formers squawk sometimes, but oh my goodness, we have such a perspective on the reality of deception and HOW deeply embedded it becomes so quickly. It truly is a miracle when someone breaks free by the power of the Holy Spirit. Anyway, that was a long way around to get to the point which was really just the last two sentences. ha! Thanks for listening. Patria (Message edited by patriar on September 17, 2007) | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 408 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy: I was just having that conversation with a couple of other ladies. It is fascinating to me that the Jews think it's just ridiculous for a Gentile to be "keeping the Sabbath". Something else Chris Lee recently pointed out to me is that Sabbath isn't Sabbath anyway without the ritual sacrifices in the temple. So even if we were actually "doing" Sabbath right, and we all know NO one does, then we still wouldn't be doing it acceptably because there is no longer a temple to sacrifice in! So basically, half of the requirement isn't even available to "do". That does seem like a rather unobscure clue from God since Jesus Himself prophesied the destruction of the Temple. Patria | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 465 Registered: 12-2004 |
Patria, Thankyou for your last couple of posts. I would have never guessed you were one of those cahooter girls stirring up trouble and controversy. What I find amazing is that more people when presented with sound scriptural evidence, don't break free by the power of the Holy Spirit. I suppose that the still small voice sometimes takes its time to prompt and nudge. For many that small voice becomes a roar that can no longer be ignored regardless of how much nonsense has previously filled there minds. Thanks again for your insights and your always kind and gentle manner. Randy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1477 Registered: 9-2006 |
If a person wants a formula for transformation he/she might consider joining the crew of Star trek, They have a transponder on there that works most of the time, of course you take a chance on being scrambled, come to think of it thats probably what happened to me. I landed right in the middle of a buncha Adventist,its kinda like "There is nothing wrong with your screen, you have just entered the Twilight zone" River | ||
| Martinc Registered user Username: Martinc Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2006 |
Excellent, River! LOL! So that's what I went through, a transponder. No wonder I'm still groping around for some missing parts. Actually the Lord is reconstructing me. Colleen, wow, you really described the plight of the Gentile proletariat! With lots of faithful, unholy help and a little modern technology, one could just leave all those cares behind. Of course, that Sabbath rest was harder to come by for us poor folk living in the country. By the way, has anyone ever compiled a list of all the things Ellen White said we should and shouldn't do on the Sabbath? How many multiples of 613 will the total number of items be? | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 411 Registered: 3-2005 |
River!  Randy, thank you for the affirmation of growth in my life. Anything gentle from me is a work of the Holy Spirit. I come from hard core finger pointers. Patria | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 426 Registered: 6-2005 |
Hey Patria, A couple weeks ago I was at a service and the pastor said that anyone who wanted prayer for healing should stand. So I stood. I wanted prayer for my rotator cuff (injured while trying to show off to my son--I wanted to prove to him I could body surf huge hurricane remnant waves...but that is another story) . Anyway, I stood for prayer, and these two teenage girls came up to pray for me. They didnt ask, and I didnt say, what I wanted prayer for. They just layed hands on me and began to pray for gentleness, grace, kindness, fruit of the Spirit stuff. Especially gentleness. End of story, or so I thought. Throughout the week, I noticed kind words coming out of my mouth. I was extrodinarily patient with my son when he left his swim equipment stuff for the hundreth time. Gracious remarks and comments I wasn't even aware of thinking were being spoke out of my mouth. I found my head spinning around, to see who this kind and caring woman was...This continued for the entire week, with absolutely no effort on my part. Talk about fruit! I could still use prayer for my shoulder, but God had a different miracle in mind for me at that time! I got to have His heart for people for a time, and I am asking for more. Yes, anything gentle from me is a work of the Holy Spirit! (Especially on the inside, where no one but God sees). I so relate. Lori | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 116 Registered: 6-2007 |
Jews and the temple and sacrifice were mentioned above. Can anyone tell me when and why the jews stopped sacrificing. If they do not believe Jesus was the messiah, why are they not still offering sacrifices today? How do they consider their sins forgiven without a sacrifice on someone's part? | ||
| Blessed Registered user Username: Blessed Post Number: 103 Registered: 1-2007 |
Lori, Your post is so timely for me. I will be starting a new Beth Moore study next Tuesday evening and the title is Living Beyond Yourself - Discovering the Fruits of the Spirit. I sure could use some kindness, gentleness, meekness, etc. Blessed | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2152 Registered: 10-2004 |
Laurie, the Jews stopped sacrificing in AD 70 when the Temple was destroyed, because they are only allowed (according to the Law) to sacrifice at the Temple. Similarly, they also no longer tithe, as that would also be against the Law, with no Temple/Levites system. Jeremy | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 412 Registered: 3-2005 |
Lori: Wow. What a beautiful story. Just last week I was talking to a family member who was telling me about a conversation in which she was defending the concept of Sabbath in Christ to someone. She said, "I just wish that these things were taught explicitly." Well of course I told her that they ARE explicit. The question is do we believe God is correct! But that's another story. My point is that I told her that one of the strongest evidences is the change in my heart and my life just as you are describing. I find I'm more patient with my children. I have a longing to be a godly wife. Those were never things I had before. And that doesn't even touch on the thought life! If I ever have momentary doubts about God, all I have to do is remember the very real, miraculous change in me. God is so amazing. Truly gracious! Patria (Message edited by patriar on September 18, 2007) | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 118 Registered: 6-2007 |
Jeremy I still don't understand what they feel is the sacrifice to take away their sin. In old testament times the lamb was their sacrifice. If they do not see Jesus as the Messiah, their substitute, who or what is their substitute or sacrifice today? | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 192 Registered: 5-2007  |
Laurie, Your question is a good one that I have never thought to ask, but just may get the chance. The plant where I work produces a Kosher product so we are inspected by a Rabbi at intervals. The next time I see him I will try and remember to ask the question. Phil |
