| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Hi Joni, Here are the two passages you wanted me to comment on: Hebrews 3:12, 10:26-31 (NIV) Hebrews 3 12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. Hebrews 10 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Since I believe in the absolute sovereignty of God, these passages do not confound me. Under the sovereignty principle salvation for ALL people occurred on the cross. Some never accept. Others accept and remain true. Still others, according to these passages, accept, then turn away. God knew they would turn away before they ever accepted. Thus, Jesus "never knew" them though they healed the sick, visited those in prison, fed the hungry, clothed the naked, raised the dead and preached the gospel. It is the overly rationalistic, "ya gotta prove it to me, God" mind set of modern Western culture that cannot reconcile the behavior of humans with the sovereignty of God. The fact that God knows in advance that somebody is going to choose a certain way does not mean that person is denied a choice. We humans do not and cannot understand this. It is another one of those revelation-generated paradoxes that the theology of mystery against which the theology of mystery can only stand in awe. God's mind, God's ways, God's understanding are NOT at our disposal. God does not have to prove ANYTHING to us. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are Gods thoughts higher than our thoughts and His ways higher than ours. Max of the Cross | ||
| Joni |
Max, thank you. This really make sense. Its funny how I can be confused one minute and the next, after reading your post, I think Oh! that makes sense. I realize it is all in trusting God. By the way I missed the last Hebrews class because my last born was not feeling very well. Oh well. What a lesson. | ||
| Max |
Joni, Speaking of Hebrew, the pastor of the church where I attend, Gary Inrig, is a Hebrew scholar. He taught Hebrew, I believe, at the Evangelical seminary in Dallas. In his sermon one Sunday he was preaching about holiness that morning from Old Testament texts. And he used the English word "holy" (as translated from Hebrew) in two different ways: 1. We are holy unto God. 2. But God is NOT holy unto us. I've had only one graduate level Hebrew course, so I know very little Hebrew. But I thought he should be more consistent. So after the service I questioned him. I said I liked the idea of God being holy unto me. Imagine! The mighty God, creator of an infinity of universes, being dedicated to ME? Makes me feel good, powerful, wanted, admired. Now Gary Inrig can sometimes be a bit abrupt. He cut me short. The Hebrew cannot support that interpretation, he said. In the Old Testament Bible, when the Hebrew word for "holy" is applied to humans, it means "holy TO" (God). But when it is applied to God it means "holy FROM" (humans). And so when it comes to the word "holiness" -- as distinct from, say, the word "love" -- it's a ONE WAY street. We are holy TO God, but God is holy FROM us. Love, on the other hand, is a TWO WAY street. God loves us first and we love him back. Not so with holiness. And -- I have since learned -- with good reason. For if God were holy TO us, he would be at our beck and call, our servant, our slave, the 100-ton King Kong in the sky ready to pound our enemies for us. But it's easy to see how absurd this idea gets in practice. Ever notice at a high school football game how each team will pray the same prayer: "God, help us to beat the other team." What would you do if you were sitting in the heavens and the earth were your footstool? How would you answer such a prayer? Whom would you favor? The Tulsa Tigers? Or the Buffalo Bears? You don't get to flip a coin. For the teams themselves could flip a coin to see who wins. And then they wouldn't have to play at all! And all the moms and pops in the stands could go home frustrated and angry because there was no football game that night. No, if God were holy TO us, absurdities would abound. WE would be running things, using God as our awesome tool, our Giant Vending Machine in the Sky. It would be like the guy who prayed the prayer, "Lord, if a thousand years is only as one day to you and one day is as a thousand years, then -- since there are 365,000 days in a thousand years -- wouldn't one of your dollars be worth 365,000 thousand of ours? Won't you give me just one of your dollars out of all your gazillions?" To which prayer God is reported to have replied, "In a day or so, my son." Yet another Biblical truth springs to mind here: God is not mocked. Never, ever! And making God "holy TO" us is in this sense a form of mockery, making God into something he isn't and cannot ever be -- a tool. No, God is not our faithful dog. He is our faithful Lord and Master. Max of the Cross | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, Hmmmmm, that put some perspective to he "Name It Claim It" and "Word Faith" mind set. It is such an awful (un)theology. When you listen to one of these people, they quote the verse about what ever you ask for in faith you will receive and build a case for their belief of, "MY God in the sky dancing to MY drum." When you bury a friend that was hooked up with that rubbish because of her belief in God's healing while she did nothing to help herself, you get sick! Maryann | ||
| Max |
Maryann, What do you mean, "...she did nothing to help herself..."? Help herself do what? What responsibilities do we have as Christians under the sunshine of God's sovereign grace? | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, I've been thinking about my friend lately and her kids too. The best way to tell you what I mean about not helping herself is to tell about her in the "memories thread." I'll get to work on that, maybe even this evening. Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
Wowwww Max, I went work on that story about my friend and dug up some memories that I hadn't thought of much in years! I just checked the time and had no idea it was this late! Tomorrow, or in this case, today is another day. I can hardly wait to finish now;-)) | ||
| Max |
Good, Maryann, go for it! | ||
| Chyna |
hiya, reading up on the pharisees, I couldn't help but notice the similarities between Adventists and Pharisees, such a sad, but true comparison. Chyna | ||
| Max |
Yes Chyna, In Luke's book of the Acts of the Apostles: 1. The Pharisees who were circumcised and kept the Sabbath were called unbelievers. 3. The Gentile Christians who were uncircumcised and did not keep the Sabbath were called believers. 4. The few Pharisees who did accept Christ tried to force their fellow Gentile Christians to become circumcised and start keeping the Sabbath. 5. Paul battled them to a standstill and took up the matter with the apostolic church leadership in Jerusalem under the leadership of James. 6. James ruled that no they did not have to. 7. In all the evangelistic meetings ever held the Sabbath is never preached. 8. There is no record at all anywhere of any Gentile converts ever keeping the Sabbath. Just a few things to keep in mind whenever your Adventist friends tell you that the Gentiles of the early church -- probably way over 99% of the membership -- kept the Sabbath. Max of the Cross Ps. How about a report on things in Thailand? | ||
| Patti |
Actually, Chyna (and I am not saying that you have made the claims below), I think it is important to remember that WE are the Pharisees, not just the SDAs. Anytime we think we are spiritually superior to anyone in any way, even if we give God the glory for it, as the Pharisee in the parable did, we place ourselves in sandals of the Pharisee--the one who did not "go down to his house justified." The reason the publican did? 1. He recognized his helplessness and God's great saving power: "God, be merciful..." 2. He acknowledged and rued his hopelessness, his sinfulness: "... to me, a sinner." We never advance past the point of needing God's great mercy for our exceeding sinfulness. "Going down to our houses justified," is the highest good that we as humans can attain, and it is a pronouncement based upon the sovereignty of God and the depravity of man. We never cease to be dependent upon God's infinite mercy; we never reach a point that we can gloat that we are not as other men are. Because our salvation is purely gratuitous; it comes of God's infinite mercy in Jesus Christ ALONE. The moment we cease to be hopeless sinners is the moment that we will no longer need a Savior. When we begin to see good things in ourselves it is evidence that we have taken our eyes off of Jesus Christ. | ||
| Chyna |
maybe the topic should be: "Problem Ellen G. White Period.' i feel like i am carrying a loaded gun with text i've copied onto my computer's clipboard, here it is: A physician who has the moral courage to peril his reputation in enlightening the understanding by plain facts, in showing the nature of disease and how to prevent it, and the dangerous practice of resorting to drugs, will have an up-hill business, but he will live and let live. He will not use his powerful drug medication, because of the knowledge he has acquired by studying books. ... Drugs are too often promised to restore health, and the poor sick are so thoroughly drugged with quinine, morphine, or some strong health-and life-destroying (word illegible), that nature may never make sufficient protest, but give up the struggle; and they may continue their wrong habits with hopeful impunity. The Paulson Collection, p. 22 Before the development of synthetic drugs, quinine was a "miracle-drug" that was used to treat malaria. Unfortunately, Adventist missionaries apparently took Mrs. White's extreme counsel to heart and paid for it with their lives: A row of graves in Africa mark the site of the first SDA missionaries. They were told by authorities to take quinine, but as Adventists they got their marching orders from a higher source. They knew that quinine was valueless: they trusted Mrs. White that she had been shown this by God, and as a result they died. (Gregory Hunt, M.D., Beware this Cult, chapter 4, "Ellen White and Medicine") sad sad sad, Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
more on ellen. sadly sadly: Ministry Magazine of October, 1981 contained many startling statements, not the least of which was this one on page 8, "We believe the revelation and inspiration of both the Bible and Ellen White's writings to be of equal quality. The superintendence of the Holy Spirit was just as careful and thorough in one case as in the other." | ||
| Shereen |
I was just talking to a good friend of mine who is a strong SDA. She is very curious about the books, the white lie and white washed. I am not sure if that is what they are called but if anyone could give me the names again and the authors so I can get the books and pass them on to her. I am very surprised that she is open minded enough to consider looking at them. Thank you. | ||
| Cas |
The White Lie is by Walter Rea, and White Washed is by Sydney Cleveland. You can find these books as well as others on www.ellenwhite.org. | ||
| Cas |
Note~I just checked and The White Lie can be read online at www.ellenwhite.org. | ||
| Max |
Following is a statement by SDA heavyweight theologian Walter M. Booth, Ph.D., that appears in MINISTRY, SDA "International Journal for Pastors," October 2000 issue, page 7. ^^I am convinced that Ellen White's theology satisfies the most essential characteristics of the best in a long line of theological tradition Again, she has given us a theology that (1) is purely biblical and comprehensive, (2) recognizes the transcendent meanng of divine truth, (3) shows a balance between positive and negative, between theoretical and practical -- with heavier emphasis on the positive and pracical, and (4) is humane and dynamic. ^^Surely, had she published a systematic formulation of her theological views, her high standing as a theologian [sic] would be acknowledged[!] I am convinced that, either she was all that she claimed to be or her theological thought must be regarded as one of the most impresssive achievements of the human spirit.^^ My personal reaction? All I can do is to repeat the sentence reputed to be carved into the stone archway that spans the entry into the open gates of hell: ABANDON HOPE ALL YE WHO ENTER HERE. Max of the Cross | ||
| Rayna |
AMEN PATTI! RAYNA | ||
| Dan_2 |
Hi, I just came across this web site and appreciate what I have seen here. Anyway, if I could ever be of any help to any Adventist who is sincerely questioning Adventist theology and wanting "some help," I'm more than willing to "email with you." I'm a former Adventist pastor (now pastoring at a community church). God has used me to help lead almost my whole extended family out of Adventism (4 of which were also SDA pastors). My church email address is, dan@mtnparkchurch.org When I think about the unwillingness for Adventist to consider that maybe their whole belief system, it reminds me of the song, The Boxer, "Still a man beliefs what he wants to belief and disregards the rest." Enjoy the 7 days a week rest in Jesus! --Dan | ||
| Max |
Wonderful to hear from you, Dan_2! Welcome! Your services are sorely needed. We have a lot of people who post a lot of questions! In addition to your being an e-mail resource, I would hope that you would also post a lot of answers. Max of the Cross |
