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Username: Freedom55

Post Number: 97
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2013 - 9:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In discussions with some of my SDA friends regarding the current Sabbath School quarterly, some questions have come up & hope you can help me find the right answer.

The question is asked at Dan 8:13, "How long is the vision" to which the answer is given at Dan 8:14 "2300 evenings and mornings". The quarterly suggests that the word "vision" in Dan 8:13 refers to the whole vision of Dan 8. I suspect they take this position to argue that the commencement of the 2300 evenings and mornings would be in the period of the ram (Media-Persia)identified at the beginning of the vision; which in turn would support their long-held teaching that the commencement date must be 457 bc.

But as I read Dan 8:13, the focus appears to be centered on that part of the vision dealing with the cessation of the daily sacrifices. In other words, it seems to me that the question in Dan 8:13 is not "how long is the entire vision" but rather "how long is the vision concerning the cessation of the daily sacrifices". Based on this view, the commencement of the 2300 evenings mornings would be at the time the daily was taken away by the little horn.

Anybody want to weigh in on this issue and help me out? Any insights? Any references?
Registered user
Username: Asurprise

Post Number: 3259
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2013 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A little over halfway down in the Sept.'12 Levitt Letter in the "letters to the editor" section, there's a wonderful response to this defective SDA doctrine!
Registered user
Username: Grace2

Post Number: 13
Registered: 8-2013
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2013 - 5:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The following quote is from the English Standard Version: "Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, “For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?” 14 And he said to me,[a] “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.” To me it seems plain that this is not about all of chap. 8 but particularly the trampling of the sanctuary.

If indeed it refers to 2300 literal years what or who started to trample the sanctuary in 457 and ended in 1844. To me the SDA doctrine doesn't add up.
Registered user
Username: Bskillet

Post Number: 1042
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2013 - 10:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Daniel 8 and Daniel 9 deal with completely different visions and issues. Daniel 8 is dealing with desecration of the sanctuary, whereas Daniel 9 deals with rebuilding of Jerusalem. The 70 "sevens" of Daniel 9 begin with "the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" (9:25). It is plainly contradictory to say that the 2300 evening-morning (be they literally "days" or "sacrifices") of Daniel 8's desolation of the sanctuary have the same starting point as Daniel 9's command to rebuild Jerusalem.

Furthermore, the SDA interpretation of the 2300 "evening-morning" means the Temple was desecrated from 457 BC onward until 1844. Problem is, a literal Temple was actually built, a Temple Jesus endorsed by calling it His Father's house and cleansing it of the money changers (John 2:17). This Temple was even expanded starting with Herod. It was then destroyed in 70AD, and never rebuilt.

To solve this, SDAism has to argue the prophecy in Daniel 8 was for a literal Temple until 31AD, then a spiritual Temple thereafter. Likewise, they have to argue the desolator was a literal Roman Empire until the papacy, at which point it became a spiritual desolator.

However, Rome had no relations with the Jews in 457 BC, so they could not have been desolating the sanctuary from that time onward. In fact, the first time the Jews had contact with the Romans was when they asked for Roman help in 161 BC during the Jewish uprising against the Seleucids. The Jews were rebelling against the Seleucids in part because an earlier Seleucid emperor, Antiochus Epiphanes, had desecrated the Sanctuary by offering a pig on the alter (among other desecrations). So when the Jews first made a treaty with the Romans, it was for help against the very empire that had earlier defiled the Jewish Temple. To say that the Romans were desecrating the Temple from 457 BC onward is plainly foolish, especially given the help they provided to the Jews against the Seleucids.

To make their interpretation of Daniel 8 and 9 work, one has to be completely ignorant of the most basic facts of Jewish and Christian history. Which exactly describes the early Adventist "pioneers."

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