| Author | Message | ||
| Carracio Registered user Username: Carracio Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2014 |
Sorry, another question. I go to a very traditional church, with an organ etc. In our tradition pastors always read the Ten Commandments, our pastor doesnt always do that, but sometimes he does. But what do you think about this? Should the Ten Commandments occupy such an important place in the sunday service? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2107 Registered: 7-2004  |
I will offer, ahead of time, a view that will likely differ from the majority here. Although I will agree that any focus on the Ten Commandments is a misguided focus, the degree of "problem" with that is directly related to what "role" these commandments are given. Going beyond just the 10 Cs, it is important, IMO, to look at how a church uses Law (I Tim 1:8-11; Rom 3:19-31) If the Law is used to direct people towards grace, and remind people of the salvation that we have in Christ then I would not consider that a problem. If the Law is used to repeatedly beat up believers, leaving them feeling guilty instead of forgiven, that is a serious problem. If the Law is used as the ultimate guide for what you should do now that you're saved it is also a serious mis-use of the concept. The mistake with an emphasis on the Ten Commandments is the idea that these compose the Law or represent the core of the Law. But I don't believe that this mistake is nearly as big of one as using Law, on the whole, incorrectly. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14785 Registered: 12-2003  |
I agree, Rick. Carracio, I would want to know what your tradition is. Rick's outline of the different ways Law can be used show the ways different denominations or traditions might use the law. Ultimately, the Lord Jesus is the center of all Scripture. God gave many shadows of Him and of His atonement in the Old Testament; if these shadows are not understood and explained as being fulfilled in Jesus, they may easily be used wrongly. Colleen | ||
| Carracio Registered user Username: Carracio Post Number: 19 Registered: 3-2014 |
Hi Colleen. It is a traditional Reformed church. The law is used to show how God wants us to live our life. Our pastor is also struggling with the law so he now almost always reads the Royal Law of love. But other pastors keep putting the law in the sunday service. Its quite hard for us, because of the situation with my in-laws. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1409 Registered: 2-2011  |
Carracio~ Dutch Reformed Church? ~mj~ | ||
| Carracio Registered user Username: Carracio Post Number: 20 Registered: 3-2014 |
Yes, dont know if you know that kind of church? | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1410 Registered: 2-2011 |
Carracio~ One is located near where I live~ ~mj~ | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 29 Registered: 4-2014 |
I wonder why the Churches always elevate the Ten Commandments but NEVER elevate the myriad and detailed condemnations of various sins in the Epistles? I wonder why "take up this cross and follow me" is almost NEVER raised to the same level as the Ten Commandments? I wonder why the Noahide Commandments, with their comprehensive system of justice that was actually consistently interpreted as the Covenant for the Gentiles; is never mentioned? I wonder why nobody ever notices that the Noahide Commandments predated the Mosaic Law by several hundred years? I wonder why the First and Second Century Christian Fathers are almost NEVER discussed? I can find NO mention of the Ten Commandments in the writings of ANY First or Second History Church Father! I can find plenty of unequivocal and harsh condemnations of Christians caught up in the Judaizing and Ebionite heresies, which were early versions of Seventh Day Adventism. I can find plenty of harsh and ringing denunciations of attempted blending of the Gospel and Mosaic Law. I can plenty of stories of Christian fathers who believed that going to the Lions was being obedient to the Great Commission to carry the Gospel to all nations and tongues. I can find plenty of stories of them hoping that their lion tooth-nicked bloody bones would inspire their fellow church members to carry on the good fight. But curiously, no mention whatsoever of the Ten Commandments. I wonder why? (Message edited by Resjudicata on May 03, 2014) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14803 Registered: 12-2003 |
Great questions, Resjudicata. Colleen | ||
| Carracio Registered user Username: Carracio Post Number: 25 Registered: 3-2014 |
Resjudicata, thank you for your respons. When I search internet for Chruch Fathers and Ten Commandments I find some websites which quotes them (Augustinus, Ireneaus etc.) on how important the TC are. Are they fake? (Seems like SDA sites, but they are in dutch so I cant share them) | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 38 Registered: 4-2014 |
I was talking more about the First and Century Church fathers. Inevitably whenever someone came up with the bright idea of reviving the dead and moldy Mosaic Law, those martyrs would declare a one-word denouncement: "Hypocrites." Ignatius of Antioch and Justin Martyr were just withering in their denunciations of the Mosaic Law in its entirety. They both issued blistering denouncements of Sabbath Keeping, equating it with a lack of receiving Grace. It was an amazing time, Ignatius, on his way to being fed to the lions at the Roman Coliseum, wrote blistering attacks on the "hypocrites" that were trying to defile the churches with the Ebionite heresy (virtually the blueprint for Seventh Day Adventism: Salvation by Sabbath Keeping and vegetarianism). He argued that the Old Testament Law was incompatible with the Church's primary social policy: supporting widows and orphans. The Church of Constantinople - by itself - supported 30,000 widows and orphans! Those guys are real heroes of mine. The torture and gruesome deaths they accepted are just beyond belief. Right at the end, Ignatius's only worry is making sure his lion tooth-nicked bloody bones would make it back to the church as a holy relic, to bolster their resolve and courage. | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 39 Registered: 4-2014 |
I should add: both Ignatius and Justin STRONGLY equated Sabbath Keeping as an indication that Grace had not been received. They had no time for junk like the Ten Commandments. They were obeying Christ's Great Commission to take the Gospel to the whole world. There was no time to lose. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14814 Registered: 12-2003 |
I think a great many Christians have lost sight of church history and what our forebears both lived for and died for. The only question we'll have to answer is...what did we do with Jesus? None of those others will matter. Jesus changes everything. He changes our hearts; He gives us a new spirit. He changes our identities and our desires and gives us new power. He gives us a new heritage and a new kingdom. We are transferred out of the domain of darkness into the kingdom of the Beloved Son, and we are literally adopted by the Father! Think of it...the Father adopts us when we believe the Son! Modern Christianity is being tainted by so many temptations to adopt and believe things that just aren't the gospel. I pray that our Father will hold us in truth and reality! Colleen | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1450 Registered: 2-2011 |
IMO~ 'We' are held in, "truth and reality", by the transforming of our minds through the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the study of Scripture! This is what keeps us grounded and protects us from the 'evil one's' lies! ~mj~ | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3365 Registered: 7-2007 |
That includes Sunday "keeping" too. Keeping any day because one feels they have to, to be right with God indicates not only ignorance (because Jesus is the Sabbath now - Colossians 2:16-17), but also an indication that the person has not accepted Jesus' finished work in their behalf! | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2014 |
To be fair, I think the number of Christian denominations that equate Sunday with being the "Christian Sabbath" is very small. Since I left Adventism, I have never heard one sermon arguing that Sunday "should be kept" like the Sabbath. For the most part, Sunday has been pointedly disregarded by the majority of fellow church members I have met. I think most of them do agree with Asurprise that Jesus is the Sabbath now. That is an argument that I have heard that truly cuts across denominational lines. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14825 Registered: 12-2003 |
MJ, I agree 100%. Praying alone will not ground us in truth; there's a REASON God gave us His word. If we ignore His word and go trying to have personal understanding directly from Him, He will not bypass His word in order to fulfill our wish. He keeps redirecting us to His word. I often pray for the formers I meet online, that God will ground them in Scripture and truth. The temptation is so strong among formers...the temptation NOT to submit themselves to any authority outside themselves, even to the authority of Scripture. Truly, Adventists make an idol out of their own mental prowess. They insist on having the "last word" even over the Bible and how they understand and "use" it. Colleen | ||
| Terryohare Registered user Username: Terryohare Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2012 |
Carracio, During my long history as a Christian, I attended the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Christian Reformed Church and United Reformed Church, all of which put the Ten Commandments center-stage in their Sunday liturgy. The tradition developed with great intentions to present the gospel through the various steps of the liturgy. “Guilt, Grace, and Gratitude” epitomized the gospel message, and the Ten Commandments served to demonstrate man’s guilt before a holy God. Based on Calvin’s exegesis, he viewed the law (meaning the OT) has having three functions. The first use is to present the righteousness of God in order to see how we have come short of His glory. This is why these churches read the “the Law” (i.e., the TC as a summary of God’s law) early in the liturgy. The law condemns us and is the ministration of death. This realization is what motivates people to seek God’s grace. In other words, we need to admit and confess our sinfulness before asking for His grace to forgive us. Once forgiven, we move forward with an abundant life characterized by gratitude. From my perspective, the problem with reading the Ten Commandments is that it contains a ceremonial law. With a ceremonial law within its core, it is not the best passage to use in order to present the moral righteousness of God. However, Reformed churches do not believe the Sabbath commandment is a ceremonial law. They think that Jesus’ summation of the law to love the Lord and to love your neighbor has its antecedent in the Ten Commandments (the first four commandments directing our love to God, and the remainder our duties toward our fellow man). Occasionally, some pastors would select other passages that exhibited the flawless perfections of God’s character, but the Church Order of these denominations hearken back to their confessions which exalt the Ten Commandments in their theology. The history of these denominations is a proud one, and many lives were lost in the making of their confessions and catechisms, so they do not want to veer far from this tradition. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14833 Registered: 12-2003 |
Terry, I know you are right in your summary. I do wish that the Reformed tradition could examine its historical analysis, however, and realize the Sabbath was ceremonial and was designated so in Scripture, both in Leviticus 23 where it is listed along with all the other ceremonial Sabbaths, and in the NT, especially Colossians 2:16-17 and Hebrews 3-4, etc. It seems to me that the paradigm of "covenant theology" has kept the blinders in place. From my perspective, covenant theology downplays the conditional nature of the Mosaic covenant and underplays the remarkable difference of the new covenant and Jesus' fulfillment of the entire Mosaic covenant. Nevertheless, this question isn't the question that determines fellowship. It is repentance and belief in the Lord Jesus that transfers us out of the domain of darkness into the kingdom of the Beloved Son. Colleen | ||
| Terryohare Registered user Username: Terryohare Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2012 |
Thank you. That is my prayer for my Reformed friends. I wondered myself if their form of “covenant theology” was tightly linked to their form of Sabbatarianism. Their general understanding of covenant theology (CT) is that God’s work with mankind through history has been guided by a series of covenants, rather than dispensations. That is, Reformed CT is primarily about the structure of the Bible (Robertson, "The Christ of the Covenants"). Yet, Reformed believers understand the concepts of fulfillment and typology. The 1561 Belgic Confession, Article 25 states: “We believe that the ceremonies and symbols of the law have ceased with the coming of Christ…” I wondered how they could easily relegate circumcision and sacrifices and sacerdotal duties to the heap bin of ceremonial law, but not the Sabbath. What prevents them from acknowledging the ceremoniality of the Sabbath is this syllogism: 1) The TC contain a summary of God’s moral law, 2) the Sabbath is commanded in the TC; therefore, 3) The Sabbath is a moral law. The first statement, though, is indefensible from Scripture, so the conclusion has no merit. However, this syllogism has been inculcated through catechetical teaching at Reformed churches for centuries and is the primary barrier to understanding the fulfillment of Sabbath law. |
