| Author | Message | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 3081 Registered: 5-2007  |
Internal Contradictions: 1. Caffeine. While there were much more significant struggles for me as an SDA teenager one that I didn’t recognize back then as an indicator of what was really wrong in the things I was taught was the question of what was right or wrong about drinking coffee. I was taught by family members, Sabbath school lessons and elementary school teachers that coffee drinking was a sin because it contained caffeine. Caffeine, along with other drugs, was bad because, like alcohol, it would be something that would pollute my body. Of course, 1 Cor. 3:16-17 would be quoted and how could I argue with the Bible? Well, it has been well over 55 years since I abandoned my ongoing failed attempt at becoming a perfect Adventist boy and then decided logically to spend the few miserable days allotted to me at being a ‘happy sinner’ doomed for hell. Looking back over my life this just hast to be about the most trivial of issues that I have had to confront as I grow in sanctification. 2. Appearances Something I still struggle with is doing something right because, if I didn’t, people would think me a Bad Adventist boy and I would never go to heaven if people see me doing bad things. Case in point: In those days there were candy ‘cigarettes’ we could use to pretend like we were smoking. I was told that was just as bad as the real thing because somebody might see me doing it and not understand it was really just candy. Bowling was bad because there might be a bar there and people might see me near others who might be drunk. Never understood why movie theaters were bad because we often got to watch many of the very same movies at school or church. I was informed that someone might see me at the theater and think I was going to see a “bad movie”. As a sign of my open rebellion I got a bottle of Thunderbird and drank it then went to the theater and watched the Marilyn Monroe movie, Bus Stop. Man oh man had I become a decadent sinner. I even indulged in the game of bowling. Even though I was a member of the Napa Seventh-day Adventist church who was openly sinning according to Adventist standards my behavior was never challenged. Not until years later when I turned my life over to the Lord and began worshiping at a, horror of horrors, a Sunday Keeping church did anyone question me about my behavior. When I told that person, an aunt who was herself leading an open sinner’s life, that I now believed Ellen White was a false prophet she violently became mad and the subject never came up again except another aunt who agreed with me but remained an Adventist anyway. Adventist simply do not understand the futility and hypocrisy of doing things for appearance sake with the one thing they don’t want to see you doing is attending a Sunday Keeping church. Even as I should know better I still fall into the trap of doing things for the sake of appearance. Perhaps it is the one legacy of my upbringing that will always be with me in the life ‘of the flesh’. PS Years later at a family reunion which included Adventist cousins I led a Sabbath day devotional from 1 Cor. Chapter 3 where the Apostle Paul clearly teaches that ‘popularity cliques’ within the body of Christ which take our attention off of the foundation of our faith (Jesus and the gospel of Jesus Christ) is what pollutes the ‘Body of Christ’. Furthermore, Paul goes on to teach that our ‘good works’ that will withstand the test of fire are founded upon nothing other than Jesus Christ the foundation of our faith. And, even if our works do not survive the test of fire, the salvation of those who are saints is secure. That time of devotion didn’t go well. Clearly, looking at context isn’t something Adventist are normally willing to do. They are happy to paste unrelated portions of Scripture together and arrive at doctrine even when it violates the context of the ‘proofs’ being used. Fearless Phil | ||
| Capross Registered user Username: Capross Post Number: 95 Registered: 7-2012 |
Phil When I was an Adventist they always quoted 1 Corinthians 6:19. Yet there is where Paul makes it clear there is only one sin against our body. 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 8 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. Seems they made up all of the other sins against my body. Cap | ||
| Capross Registered user Username: Capross Post Number: 96 Registered: 7-2012 |
Phil BTY I write this as I am enjoying my 2nd cup of coffee this morning Cap | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 3084 Registered: 5-2007 |
Thanks Cap, I had that passage in mind also. Looking back on the time I was an Adventist, which can be hard to do because it was so long ago, it boggles my mind how things are taken out of context to such an extreme. In 1 Cor. 6:12-20, the context is 'all things are lawful' (verse 12) except sexual immorality (verse 13). Since the theme, core and context of Adventist teaching focuses on the subject of the food we eat is what can pollute the body there is Matt. 15:10-20 to consider. In this passage the list of what does pollute our body is expanded upon by including anything that come from the heart (verse 18) but Specificatlly excludes anything we eat (verse 16). The context of this passage (verses 10 & 11) is that what we put into the mouth cannot pollute but what comes out of the mouth can and does pollute our bodies. Since false teachings come out of the month of current and past Adventist teachers and preachers I contend that this is what is polluting the whole Body of Christ which is the true Universal Church, which is the theme of 1 Cor. chapter 3. PS I also am now on my second cup of coffee.  Fearless Phil | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 349 Registered: 4-2014 |
Phil and Capross, You guys have given me some profound thoughts.....hopefully I can write them down and make sense out of them......here goes... Human beings have a longing for a physical tangible connection with God. Nothing else can replace that. People were physically intimate with Jesus Christ on many levels. They would touch his robes. They would wash his feet with their hair. He would lay hands on them and heal them. They drank and ate the last supper with him after he touched each part of it. The genius of Evangelical Christianity in my mind is that it has succeeded in replicating much of this visceral, tangible connection with the Resurrection. Adventism as we all know, because of its emphasis on trivial and meaningless historical dates; silly and outdated health rules; pointless paranoid imaginings; dry legalism....I could go on and on.....just cannot fulfill these human longings like only the Resurrection can. Jesus went into the heavenly Accounting Department in 1844, put on the green eye shades and went to work in earnest adding up our heavenly debit and credit balance. It wasn't finished on the cross. It is finished on a spreadsheet. Adventists are incorrect that our perfect behavior will speed up His Return. Modern computerized accounting methods will whittle through our record of good works much much faster. Adventists think Jesus keeps track of the cans of Big Franks you eat, versus the times you sneak out and get that Big Mac. As for me, I think it all boils down to whether Heaven has ordered in enough copies of Excel. Ellen White devised the Investigative Judgment in a day and time when people put the balances down with pencil and paper. Surely by now Heaven has accepted the superiority of Pentium Processors? That's where their silly and pointless arguments against coffee and alcohol come from. A can of beer and a cup of coffee are tangible behaviors that can be quantified mathematically in the heavenly spreadsheets. Ever notice how your heart's deepest longings for the actual presence of God (which Jesus is and was, and now the Holy Spirit) cannot be quantified mathematically? Since God made it clear that his greatest desire was to become one of us and live among us, it seems pretty clear that he had to discard worthless and trivial junk like the Law to remove any and all separation between Him and us. And focusing on trivia like cups of coffee, cans of Pabst, Big Macs and Veja-Links reinstates those artificial separations that Jesus so painstakingly removed. He gave up his very life to remove them. Too early in the morning. I just started on my second cup of Ethiopian Mocha Harrar. I'm getting away with it though: I'm banking on the Heavenly Accounting Department sticking to an 8-5 schedule | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 3085 Registered: 5-2007 |
Res, Ah, Ethiopian Mocha Harrar, very good coffee I would think. Due to economics I restrain myself and roast the house blend of the company I get my green beans from. I've roasted Ethiopian Harrar but it wasn't the 'Mocha' blend. However, it was really good coffee. Did try the Mocha Java once but wasn't all that impressed. My favorite is just about anything that comes from Indonesia. However, I’m not interested in trying out the coffee featured in the movie, The Bucket List. Although, they do say coffee beans that have passed through the digestive track of a monkey does give your coffee a certain unique flavor. PS My own Bucket List centers on things of eternal value, not what I eat or drink. Fearless Phil | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 3086 Registered: 5-2007 |
Res, Interesting what you said. I'm impressed with what you see in anything I or Cap have said in that it goes way beyond and deeper than my own limited insight. Fearless Phil | ||
| Capross Registered user Username: Capross Post Number: 99 Registered: 7-2012 |
Phil/Res personally I like all coffee as long as it is Arabica. Some of the things that have been said compel me to explain the relationship I have found with the Lord. Although He know every rotten thing I have ever done and He know all of my thoughts He still loves me and wants me in His family. No one else has ever done that for me. He richly blessed me even when I was His enemy. He has shown me I can count on Him for everything necessary in my life. In John the 14th chapter he said that if I remain in Him and His word remains in me that I can ask whatever I want. Why wouldn't I remain with Him. More clearly. How could I ever live without Him. Cap | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 3087 Registered: 5-2007 |
Cap, Coffee is only an indulgence that I allow myself out of the free choice to do so. If for any reason I could or should not drink coffee then it is gone and someone else gets to have my roaster. As for Arabica, I wouldn't even consider anything else. That's a given. I am with you about the "rotten things" in my own life. The Savior who died for my sins knew about all of them even before I was born yet offered me salvation anyway. One of the heresies of Adventism is why would our Creator who knew all things even before creation need to examine the Book of Life to know what he already knows? Fearless Phil | ||
| Capross Registered user Username: Capross Post Number: 100 Registered: 7-2012 |
Phil Agreed | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14954 Registered: 12-2003  |
Phil, thank you for starting this thread. I completely resonate with your reflections on behaviors being ignored until one attends a Sunday church. THEN ALL the behavior deviations are assigned to one. I periodically remember the letter to the editor at Proclamation that asserted we left Adventism because we wanted "to eat ham sandwiches and swing". WHAT??? Sigh. Res, thanks for unpacking the ways Adventism replaces intimacy with God with ascetic behaviors. I'm realizing the tendency to asceticism is a natural human thing; it springs full-blown from mortal flesh. It's touted as "spiritual", but it's actually fleshly. It's not only Adventists who think spiritual perception is enhanced by vegetarianism. Hindu and other easter philosophies and religions believe the same thing. I can only conclude that Paul must have been right  : it is doctrines of demons to forbid foods and marriage. Oh, a couple of Christmases past, my younger son gave me a small bag of civet coffee as part of my gift. (Yes, the kind that has moved through the digestive tract of the civet...a unique cat-like animal.) I just have to say...I brewed that coffee and shared with with Richard and Nathanael, and it was truly delicious. It was all cleaned up...and extremely mild. All trace of bitterness was gone! Truly delicious! Colleen | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 350 Registered: 4-2014 |
The Investigative Judgment: Keeping track of your innermost secrets; one Big Mac at a time. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1604 Registered: 2-2011  |
~~ (^_^) ~~ We must keep our "sense of humor" to hang on to our "Senses!" Thanks for the Reminder~ Resjudicata~ ~mj~ | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14958 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ha! Colleen | ||
| Nowisee Registered user Username: Nowisee Post Number: 1471 Registered: 5-2009 |
Wasn't there a teaching of Ellen's that there would also be a "video" of our life shown in the judgement, for all to see? That horrified me…not only do the angels record every sin for Jesus to peruse, but all the beings & "watching worlds" will be able to see us committing them in living color! And they've renamed the book that taught us this horrifying IJ info, "The Great HOPE" & sent it, unsolicited, to millions of unsuspecting people | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14971 Registered: 12-2003 |
The irony is beyond belief. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 10208 Registered: 3-2004  |
A family from Calvary Chapel, where I attend, received one of those books. The man of the house looked at it and threw it away, as I remember. |
