| Author | Message | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 699 Registered: 11-2007 |
"But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts". 2 Cor. 3:14,15 NIV Is it really that simple to get rid of the veil? Just quit reading Moses and the old covenant? How about v. 16? "But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away". Does that mean that if the veil is still in place, a person has not "turned to the Lord". Surfy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11906 Registered: 12-2003  |
Really good questions, Surfy. I think that a lot of people think they've turned to the Lord because they say He's their Savior, but I know that many people say those words intellectually without actually surrendering their lives and repenting of their intractable sin. Colleen | ||
| Berit Registered user Username: Berit Post Number: 73 Registered: 7-2007 |
I thing the veil is removed when the Holy Spirit make a person see Jesus and the gospel as it is in its simplicity - without manmade interpretations. At least it is a part of the prosses. | ||
| Gorancroatia Registered user Username: Gorancroatia Post Number: 154 Registered: 6-2010 |
Veil in Biblical context is veil on Moses face, and veil which separate Holy and Most Holy part of Sanctuary. Broader it is all veils which hinder the Gospel. | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 700 Registered: 11-2007 |
I know, but based on these texts, we are to stop reading Moses and the old covenant and then the veil will be lifted. Well, that AND turn to the Lord. Seems pretty simple. Doesn't say to pray the veil will be lifted. Doesn't say to study and the veil will be lifted. Doesn't say to ask a hundred questions. Just quit reading Moses. Maybe that's why so many of us recommend the reading of Galatians every day for a month, when someone is starting to ask new/old covenant questions. Surfy | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6847 Registered: 9-2006  |
Surfy, Don't let anyone fool you, it really IS that simple. Jesus has said, Matthew 11:28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. That is also that simple. I mean,whats so hard about that, just quit reading Moses, and come to him, thats basically all any former has done, and sweet relief and freedom came of it. he is our rest. You got to the core of the matter, and hit the nail right square on the head. How things get complicated is when we make them complicated. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 825 Registered: 7-2004 |
...and ellen and her cohorts decided to pretend God was speaking to her to tell us that it is binding to read Moses and keep that veil tightly secured around our hearts and minds. She used a cord to wrap the veil tightly with the threat of losing our salvation if we didn't read Moses and follow the old covenant. | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 1493 Registered: 7-2007 |
Moses and the prophets pointed to Christ. The apostle Paul, whenever he had a chance to teach in a synagog; pointed out from those Old Testament scriptures how Jesus had fulfilled all the prophecies. The ones who rejected Jesus were the ones who instead believed teachers who taught that the Messiah hadn't come yet. Adventists listen to Ellen White who said that part of the salvation process is through works and that no one should say or feel that they are saved. They think the Bible is understood through Ellen White, therefore they CAN'T accept the Bible as it reads - and be saved. They can only accept the twistings of Ellen White. God is a loving God Who works miracles. If an Adventist (or Roman Catholic or Mormon) were to turn to God and ask Him to reveal the truth of the scriptures, He WILL reveal it. The problem is, they feel that they have the truth already so most cultists only study to "prove" that they are right.  But when they turn to the Lord - really wanting Him to reveal TRUTH; then the veil is removed.  | ||
| Psalm107v2 Registered user Username: Psalm107v2 Post Number: 768 Registered: 10-2008  |
Asurprise, I agree but I think I need to add that the concept of rule keeping to earn salvation applies to cults as well as generic run of the mill unsaved people Romans 3:11-12 says There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. If you ask the average person if they are "good" they will say yes. If you ask them if "good" people go to heaven they will say yes again. The SDA or the non Christian who thinks good works plays a part in their ability to be saved/go to heaven has a veil over their eyes. After I was saved for years I wrestled with this text. In looking back at my life I thought I tried to search for God. I tried to be good--but one day it hit me even after years of being saved: when I was an SDA I was trying to use the law to earn my way to heaven and by doing so I WAS FOLLOWING A GOD OF MY OWN MAKING. I was breaking the command to not have any other gods before my Holy Heavenly Father. Even though I did not understand the differences between the old and the new covenants I thought the sabbath and good deeds played a part in my standing before God--when it the whole issue was Jesus and His finished work at Calvary. We enter in by the veil of Jesus' flesh or not at all. Enoch | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 3470 Registered: 10-2004  |
If you keep reading to verses 3-4 of chapter 4, it would seem to further indicate that, yes. "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing," (2 Corinthians 4:3 NASB). Jeremy | ||
| Gorancroatia Registered user Username: Gorancroatia Post Number: 155 Registered: 6-2010 |
14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. KJV I don't see STOP, but a lack of understanding that Jesus is the end of it. To say STOP read OT is exaggeration and mistake. | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 456 Registered: 4-2007 |
"To say STOP read OT is exaggeration and mistake." Unfortunately Adventists, Messianics and others use the OT to define the NT...and the veil remains. They are adamant in their belief that the covenant between God and Israel cannot be broken and stands forever (in spite of the biblical evidence that Israel never upheld their end of the bargain: 'all this we will do') therefore the NC must be a rehash of the old - with all the legal requirements (the five books of Moses)...and the veil remains. Its interesting that Adventists, like Israel, treat the requirements as a smorgasbord by picking-and-choosing the ones they'll 'keep', most seem to believe that the five books of Moses consists only of the SABBATH and 'don't eat pork'. Add to this disaster a false prophetess, a nonexistent IJ and a Jesus who could have failed - subtract Grace and the Holy Spirit and you get the Seventh Day Adventist Church | ||
| Hec Registered user Username: Hec Post Number: 1463 Registered: 3-2009 |
This is kind of confusing. On on side, some people say that God's covenant with Israel is done away with. On the other side, the same people say that God's covenant with Israel is still standing and God will fulfill all its promises to Israel. Which one is it? Hec | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1807 Registered: 6-2006  |
What I still (and will always) have a problem grasping is, how and when did gentile Christians take ownership of a covenant given to Israel thousands of years ago? Even if the covenant given to Israel is still binding (which it's NOT, since Jesus was resurrected) would not the covenant still belong ONLY to Israel? Leigh Anne | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 458 Registered: 4-2007 |
Hec My take on this Covenant: a conditional agreement between two parties to do something specified. the agreement between God and the ancient Israelites, in which God promised to protect them IF they kept His law and were faithful to Him. Historically they did not and were not, by their noncompliance to the conditions of the covenant they voided the covenant. God was/is under no obligation to fulfill his promise to them. (Message edited by jonvil on November 01, 2010) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 11918 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hec, the Mosaic covenant is now fulfilled and obsolete. That covenant was not the covenant of "promise". The "promises" God made to Israel were the Abrahamic covenant, into which the Gentiles have been grafted but which has never excluded the Jews, the Davidic covenant, and the New Covenant. These are the covenants of promise, and they were all made to the Jews. The mystery of the Gentiles being grafted into the New Covenant (which is the realization of the Seed and Blessing promises in the Abrahamic covenant) is a wonderful gift from God. But these promises to Israel have not be nullified. Read Romans 9 through 11! Colleen | ||
| Asetechrail Registered user Username: Asetechrail Post Number: 52 Registered: 1-2010  |
Grace-Alone good question! As I see it, the old covenant (10c) was for Israel only. It was given to them to separate them from the rest of the nations. The gentiles never were under that old covenant. So why now, do gentiles try to place themselves under a covenant that was never meant for them in the first place? | ||
| Gorancroatia Registered user Username: Gorancroatia Post Number: 156 Registered: 6-2010 |
"quit reading Moses" and keeping the wrong Covenant is two different things. My be I am missing something here? To STOP read is a one of thous "don't" and where is end of it? Dont do that, dont do that and that.... Why to say "quit" ? OT is not about the old covenant only, there is also other stuff, and like Psalms they describe what Jesus think and felt on the Cross. You can not understand NT if you have no clue about OT, and Greek thinning. Exp. Sproul is very good with knowledge about Greek philosophy. Can we say STOP read Aristotle ? Why? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 6851 Registered: 9-2006 |
Gorancroatia, You missed the point, no one is suggesting to stop reading the OT. We simply meant to stop looking to Moses for salvation, but instead look to Jesus, the author and the finisher of our faith. Get it? I noticed this kept bothering you, is why I am trying to explain what was meant. River | ||
| Gorancroatia Registered user Username: Gorancroatia Post Number: 157 Registered: 6-2010 |
ok. I missed. |
