| Author | Message | ||
| RaynaKay |
I was visiting with a friend today and she was telling me how her church divided over being too charasmatic. She said they sang songs the people did not approve of and there was also speaking in tongues. What do you all think of having a church service with music that almost sounds like rock and roll? I thought we were supposed to come before God with reverence and godly fear. I know this is not a test of whether we have salvation or not, just wanted to know what you all think? Is the "Trinity Church" a charasmatic church? Not sure I am spelling this word right,"charasmatic? Thanks for any response. | ||
| Plain Patti |
For me, personally, no way. I like "high church" with big organs, formal services and lots of reverence! But I say "whatever melts their butter." It is certainly biblical to praise God with all kinds of instruments and dance. One complaint about the mainstream churches is that they are too formal, too cold. A Pentecostal minister said to a Presbyterian, "Man, how can you stand it? Your church is so cold they are known as "God's frozen people." The Presbyterian immediately replied, "Oh, no, you are wrong. Many are cold, but few are frozen." | ||
| Bruce H |
Go to the word and see what it says. Does this form of fellowship bring people into the word and into a relationship with Christ then it is Ok. If it detracts from the GOSPEL, and does not lead to the fruits of the Spirit then it is bad. You will know them by their fruits | ||
| Lydell |
Excellent answer Bruce. For far too long the church seems to have divided into separate camps, each sort of assuming that the others must be wrong because their style is different from ours. God made us all so different with such different styles of learning, different styles of expression, it really is absurd to assume that we all must express our worship to Him in exactly the same style. I'd grown up in traditional churches. And when the Lord led us to a church where the worship appeared more of what I had always assumed was "charismatic", I immediately attempted to remind Him that this just wasn't "reverent enough". Hey, there were drums and everything there! Hm, instead what I was shocked to find was music that so beautifully expressed the cry of my heart I was reduced to tears. The worship there is heartfelt. Sometimes it is exubberant in it's celebration of deliverance and sometimes it falls completely quiet as folks are just lost in the wonder of the love of God. And at either extreme, the Lord seems to come up and do a work in the lives of people even before the preaching begins. And it's all because of hearts being opened to allow the Lord to come in and move. That doesn't mean there is anything at all wrong with the traditional music, pipe organs and the works. It's just a different expression. As Bruce said, it is all in whether the result is that folks are encouraged to go to the Lord and the Word. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Bruce and Lydell, Amen! | ||
| BORN AGAIN |
HERE IS A QUOTE FROM A BOOK BY CHARLES PRICE A BRITISH BIBLE TEACHER. THE BOOK IS "ALIVE IN CHRIST" PG11. "THE SIMPLE YET MOST PROFOUND DISCOVERY ANY CHRISTIAN CAN MAKE IS THAT GOD HIMSELF IS OUR STRENGTH. HE DOES NOT SIMPLY GIVE IT TO US, NOR DOES HE TEACH US TECHNIQUES FOR PRODUCING IT, BUT IT IS HIMSELF! FAIL TO REALIZE THAT AND LIVE IN THE GOOD OF IT, AND THE CHRISTIAN LIFE WILL BE LIKE PUSHING A HEAVY LAWN MOWER ACROSS THE LAWN, WHEN ALL THE TIME THE ENGINE WAITS ONLY TO BE ENGAGED!" THE SECOND QUOTE IS AS PROFOUND AS IS THE FIRST: "THE CHRISTIAN LIFE IS NOT A TECHNIQUE OR A "STYLE", IT IS EXCLUSIVELY THE CONSEQUENCE OF A RELATIONSHIP THAT ALLOWS GOD TO BE GOD WITHIN A PERSON'S LIFE. IT IS THE INDWELLING SPIRIT OF CHRIST HIMSELF WHO MAKES THE CHRISTIAN LIFE "TICK." THESE TWO STATEMENTS SUM UP WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BELONG TO THE BODY OF CHRIST WHERE IT ALLOWS GOD TO BE GOD WITHIN HIS PEOPLE. | ||
| Bruce H |
Born Again Boy are those good points. Hey I like your name. | ||
| Bruce H |
I am sitting by the Columbia River in Washington and a Bald Eagel just flew by it is 5:47 in the mourning and it is beautiful. God's creation is awsome, I wonder what the New World will be like? Bruce Heinrich | ||
| Steve |
Hi Bruce, How's Washington? I've been there a number of times. It's a wonderful beautiful place. God Bless. | ||
| Sherry2 |
Counterfeit Revival - the following quotes are taken from Hank Hanegraaff's book "Counterfeit Revival, pgs. 223-228 Offending the Mind "Whether in the ashrams of cults or at the altars of churches, the objective of achieving an altered state of consciousness is always the same: to dull the critical thinking process because the mind is seen as the obstacle to enlightenment. As John Wimber and John Arnot put it, 'God offends the mind to reveal the heart.'9 Counterfeit Revival guru Rodney Howard-Browne explains that 'you can't understand what God is doing in these meetings with an analytical mind. The only way you're going to understand what God is doing is with your heart.'10 Thus, while Howard-Browne allows his subjects to make nonsensical sounds, he prohibits them from praying. On one occasion, as a woman was about to lapse into an altered state of consciousness, she became apprehensive and called out to God in prayer. Immediately Howard-Browne commanded her to cease. 'Would you listen to me?' He shouted indignantly, 'If your praying had helped, it would've helped you; now get laughing.'11 Even while people are lined up waiting to receive his touch, Howard-Browne commands them not to pray: 'Now people in the lines, wait for me to come and lay hands on you, and don't pray, please don't pray.' He addresses those who insist on praying as 'stubborn people' adding, 'People come trying to be all serious and praying. No! This is not the time to pray. This is not a prayer meeting; get in the joy; you can pray on the way home.' 12 Like Howard-Browne and leaders of the Counterfeit Revival, the late Indian guru Baghwan Shree Rajneesh denigrates the mind, going so far as to say that the 'goal is to create a new man, one who is happily mindless.' 13 Rajneesh's experiences 'on the road to enlightenment produced temporary insanity, possession, and almost killed him.'14 Dynamic Meditation Rajneesh's prescription for attaining this new consciousness is a process referred to as 'dynamic meditation'. Dynamic meditation is usd to subjugate the critical faculties of idealistic devotees to the will of the 'Master.' Mindlessly they chant I unison until the hushed moaning of their mantras fills the ashram. Sanskrit songs of praise are sung to the accompaniment of rhythmic clapping. At the subtle suggestions of the 'Master', they engage in repetitive physical motions to complete the process of becoming mindless. Some jump up and down furiously and chop their hands frantically through the air. Others throw their heads backward and forward and violently bend at the waist. Alternately they laugh and sob unctrollably. Their frenzied behavior produces a mind-altering form of hyperventilation that dulls the critical thinking process and emties the mind of coherent thought. In the end they personify Rajneesh's rendition of the 'mindless man.' As shocking as it may seem, what was once relegated to the ashrams of cults is now replicated at the altars of churches. In the ashrams of the cults there is no pretense. Despite such dangers as possession or insanity, Hindu gurus openly encourage trance states through which devotees tap into realms of the demonic and discover their 'higher selves.' Whether they experience involuntary movements or encounter illusory monsters, all is written off as progress on the road to enlightenment. When Jack Kornfield, a Western psychologist seeking Eastern enlightenment, suddenly and involuntarily began flapping his arms like chicken's wings for two solid days, he was simply instructed to contemplate his expereince. 15 When followers of the Counterfeit Revival have even more bizarre experiences, they are seduced into believing that they have simply overdosed on the Holy Ghost. What Hindu gurus like Baghwan Shree Rajneesh characterize as a trance state, Holy Ghost bartenders like Rodney Howard-Browne characterize as being 'drunk in the Spirit.' John Arnott is even more crass. He calls it being 'marinated in the Holy Spirit.'16 Southern Baptist pastor Bill Ligon claims that God is directly responsible for this condition of 'spiritual drunkeness.' According to Ligon, god told him: 'I have to get My people drunk in My Spirit because they have been drunk on the world. Their minds have been pollted, they feed their doubts - there is no confidence in Me and My power. I have to get them so drunk that I can change their thoughts and their attitudes.'17 Striking Parallels "When I first visited the Anaheim Vineyard, the drunken behavior of devotees instantly took me back to Rajneesh's ashram. A member of John Wimber's family stood at the altar, testifying that the power of God was upon her as she jerked spasmodically in what Wimber refers to as a chicken walk. It wasn't long before others had joined her in jerking while rhythmic clapping and repetitive choruses filled the auditorium with sound. Before the evening had ended, the crowd was engaged in the very practices Rajneesh devotees use to achieve their altered states of consciousness. Some were jumping up and down furiously, chopping their hands frantically through the air. Others wer violently throwing their heads backward and forward and bending wildly at the waist. One woman looked as though an invisble hand had grabbed her and was shaking her like she was little more than a rag doll. All the while, sardonic laughter punctuated by animal noses rose eerily from the bodies writhing on the ground. Later, when I visited the Airport Vineyard in Toronto, the sights and sounds I experienced were even more shocking. One of the participants was in such a profound altered state of consciousness that even when people tripped over him on the way to the bathroom he remained oblivious." | ||
| Sherry2 |
More from "Counterfeit Revival" pgs. 227-228 Sorry for any mispelled words also. I forgot to do spell check..... "Tragically, many of them are dangerously ignorant of the striking parallels between their experiences and those of Eastern mediators who achieve altered states of consciousness through occult practices. As has been well documented from studies of the world of the occult, the dangerous effects may involve depression, deatchemnt, depersonalization, disillusionment, and many equally serious disorders. Like devotees of the Counterfeit Revival, counterparts in the world of the occult testify to experiencing a variety of troubling physical manifestations in the aftermath of their encounters: 'In addition to pain, mediators may sense energy flows coursing through their bodies, or feel tingling, tickling, itching, or vibration on their skin. These sensations usually begin in the feet or pelvic area and move up the back and neck to the crown of the head, then down across the face and abdomen. Meditators may experience extreme heat or cold, and find their bodies making strange involunatary movements - muscle twitches, prolonged trembling or sinuous writhing....The automatic movements of the body may be accompanied by spontaneous crying, laughing, screaming or whistling. Other common involuntary behaviours include speaking in tongues, chanting unknown songs and making a variety of animal sounds and movments. 25 (From Testing the Spirits) In addition to these physical manifestations, Dr. Elizabeth Hillstrom warns of profound psychological disturbances: 'Emotions swing wildly from ecstasy, bliss and peace to intense fear, depression, anxiety and anger. Thoughts become strange and irrational, and experiencers may slip into dissociative or prolonged trance states. They may feel very alienated and confused, and often seem to be watching the things that are happening to them as if they were outside observers. Not surprisingly experiencers often fear that they are losing thier minds.'" Personally, I recommend the book to those trying to understand what is true or not. The opening story comes from a former charasmatic minister and his story. Lots of legitimate documentation of things said and done that go against the Word of God, as much as Ellen White did. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Sherry, I do think Hanegraaff's book is good. But I have to admit that I have certain reservations about it, too. My main conern with it is that I got the impression he might not acknowledge a true charismatic action of the Holy Spirit. The question of spiritual gifts, especially concerning the more spectauclar gifts of healing, miracles, and tongues, has caused me a low-level confusion and discomfort for years. Recently I began in-depth study of I Corinthians 12-14. We're going through 1 Corinthians in our Friday evening FAF meetings right now, and you can check our Bible Studies page on this website to get our studies and study notes. Let me try to briefly summarize my current conclusions. First, I do believe that the spiritual gifts are for the church today as well as yesterday. Second, the spiritual gifts are not simply manifestations of the Holy Spiritóthey are given to us when we believe in Christ as a gift from the entire Trinity (I Cor. 12:4). They are activated in our life by the indwelling Holy Spiritóin fact, they are literally the power of God at work in our flesh by means of God himself living in us! Third, spiritual gifts are given to believers according to God's sovereign will. (I Cor. 12:11; Hebrews 2:4) for the purpose of building up the body of Christ (Eph. 4:11). Fourth, visible spiritual gifts are not the proof that we have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Furthermore, many remarkable spiritual gifts happen quietly in people's personal lives unseen by the outside world. Visible miracles and healings are not the mark of being a healthy church! They may be present in any given body of believers if they are needed, but they may also be not visible. Fifth, Paul encouraged the Corinthians to deisre "the greater gifts"ósuch as prophecyórather than to obsess about speaking in tongues or performing miracles. He even said tongues were for the good of unbelievers, but prophecy was for believers. He said prophecy was to be greatly desired because it benefitted the believers. Tongues, he said, only benefit beleivers if they are interpreted. Some people say that miracles are the sign that a person has the gift of apostleship. Apostleship and its accompanying miracles, they say, are necessary to confirm the gospel being preached. Further, some people say the North American church (however that is defined) is unhealthy because it does not have the living, miraculous energy described in Acts. Let's look at these claims one at a time. First, Christ's apostles are in a category all their own. They witnessed the resurrection, they were commissioned by Christ, they had the gift of miracles, and they laid the foundation of the church. (Mark 3:4; Acts 1:21-22, Gal. 1:1, I Cor. 1:1) There was apparently a secondary class of apostles that included Barnabas and Junias. These apostles were not, apparently, directly appointed by Christ, but they were appointed by the church to carry Christ's commission to the world. They also had the gift of miracles. For a person to have the spiritual gift of apostleship today, he must have the call of God on him, and that call must be considered binding by the church. In other words, the body of believers, fully gifted by the Holy Spirit including gifts of wisdom, discerning between spirits, knowledge, etc., must recognize the apostle's call as binding on them. If he has the gift of apostleship, he will also have the gift of miracles, and his (or her) ministry will not be divisive among the brothers and sisters in Christ. A true apostle will be true to scripture. He will not preach "another gospel" requiring extra steps added to believing in Christ in order to receive the promises of God. His life will display the fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23). Another point: true apostolic gifts will always be accompanied by miracles, but gifts of miracles do not always mean a gift of apostleship. Finally, the gifts of the Spirit are incomplete or imperfect (I Cor. 13). They willl disappear "when perfection comes" and we see Christ face to face. (I Cor. 13:10) The fruits of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control, are eternal. They will still be with us when we see Christ. Spiritual gifts are all connected with living Christ's love in a sin-filled world. Spiritual fruits are eternal; they are the effects of the Living Lord in us! God grants the spiritual gifts to his people as they are needed. And we, the beneficiaries of these gifts, are to consider each of them, whether they are gifts of service, faith, preaching, etc, to be equally important. If anyone attempts to take his gift and separate himself from the body of Christ, that body suffers the loss of that person's gift, and that person suffers the loss of the support of the the full complement of gifts. We are Christ's body. We are uniquely gifted. As a whole, we comprise the fullness of Christ. We are to joyfully and humbly receive our gifts and submit them in the service of each other. When we submit to the gifts of those around us, our own gifts become stronger. God didn't intend for each of uis to be complete little churches. Together we comprise the Church. We may experience different gifts of God at different times of our lives. God is not static. The Holy Spirit in us gives each of us what God needs us to have at any given time. Praise God for the awesome way in which he lives in this world through us, his followers! Colleen | ||
| Sherry2 |
I agree, Colleen. I do believe the Holy Spirit will have a dramatic affect. I have seen much happen in certain charasmatic churches that is not of God though. But I hear this all the time from my charasmatic friends - they don't know if the manifestations are God's or not - they just test the fruit later. While 1 John says "Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits...." There is dramatic falacies deceiving people simply because they will not study the Word of God - it's much like Adventism - I will make the Word of God fit my way of thinking. That is so dangerous. When I attended a charasmatic church for a season 5 years ago I was so confused by what was going on. When I finally studyed out false/true prophets and the tests from old to new testament I had understanding that spoke clearly that what I had seen and experienced was a false move. I would've never suspected that God would show me how those tests also applied to egwhite this last year, but it gave me the Biblical foundation to affirm what was true, even though it was hard to accept. False prophets seem to abound. Guess I've been surprised by that lately....even though Jesus said it would be so...I never expected it to be in such magnitude. God bless. | ||
| Darrell |
Colleen, does the Bible directly say that all apostles have the gift of miracles, or are you only basing that conclusion on the apostles specificly mentioned in the Bible having that gift? | ||
| Colleentinker |
Good question, Darrell. That very thought actually occurred to me as I typed that last post. I'm basing my conclusion on the fact that the apostles in the Bible all had the gift of miracles, not on a specific statement. Mark 3:14 says that when Jesus sent our the twelve and designated them apostles, he sent them to preach and "to have authority to drive out demons." Also, Mark 16:15-18 (admittedly not in the earliest manuscripts) describes Jesus sending out the eleven (after the demise of Judas) to preach and to have powers to survive snakes, poison, and to heal. Also, the apostles throughout the NT performed miracles. It does appear that apostles all could do miracles, but not all with gifts of miracles were called to be apostles. Colleen |
