| Author | Message | ||
| Steve |
Back to 1888 The following is from Weiland and Short, 1888 Re-examined, quoted in Crosscurrents in Adventist Christology, by Eric Claude Webster: Footnote 115, p. 43: "He had, therefore, no natural 'born' righteousness any more than we have; otherwise He could not have partaken of our nature, but would have had an infinite and wholly extra-human advantage which would have rendered faith unnecessary" (p. 187). Same footnote in Webster's book: "The primary and end purpose of the Advent Movement in world history was the attainment by a remnant church to a perfect character which would completely vindicate the sacrifice of Calvary. No other community of 'saints' in all history had attained to such a maturity of experience. This last community of saints should become fully worthy to constitute the population of a 'New Jerusalem,' having overcome all the mistakes of all previous generations of the professed people of God" (pp. 9, 10) It appears, in Webster's analysis, that Weiland and Short have lowered the nature of Christ to much less than God Almighty. Otherwise, He would have had an "extra-human advantage" over us. I'm personally thankful that He had an advantage over us. What about you? It also appears that the last generation of believers need to "become fully worthy" to populate the New Jerusalem. Did you know that Jesus doesn't make you fully worthy? YOU must become fully worthy. And that is a different level of righteousness than achieved by any previous generations of believers. The 1888 message seems to be seriously flawed with the typical SDA message of righteousness by works, since we are at the same level as Jesus (He had no advantage over us). Righteousness by faith sounds nice, but it's definition is not Biblical. This has been 1888 Re-examined, Re-examined. | ||
| Joni |
I do not believe EGW was a prophet of God. The reasons that I don't believe came over a period of a few years, after reading the Bible from the OT to NT, to get a new perspective on life. The following is not meant for teaching, it is just what I feel released me from the fear and bondage of EGW and the Adventist church. I am ever learning and growing. 1. There was usually more than one prophet at a time, Eze.13 2. Elijah thought he was the only prophet, he wasn't. 1Kings 19. 3. Elisha took over after Elijah. 4. There are definitely false prophets. Eze 13:1, Jere. 14:14, Matt. 7:5 Acts 13:6 God's hand is against false prophets. Eze 13:9 Some prophets speak on their own inspiration. 5. God is searching for His lost sheep, because of the false/bad shepherds. Eze. 34. 6. The test for a true prophet is found in Deut. 18:22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet had spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him." I am not afraid of EGW. She has not spoken the truth. 7. To be a prophet everything you say must be true. God is not a liar. Satan is. He was from the beginning. 8. Joel and Acts both speak of a time that many will dream and have visions. Never just one prophet. In Acts there were many prophets. Acts 21:9 "Now this man had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses." Why do Adventists think that EGW is the only prophet? The other day I met an Adventist friend. She said she did not believe everything EGW wrote. I don't think that Adventist realize what is really going on. They blindly follow these bad shepherds. In "A SHEPHERD LOOKS AT THE 23RD PSALM" by Phillip Keller, he says that sheep are dumb. Yes we are. All the more reason to follow and listen and know the voice of Jesus. 9. In 1 Cor. 12-14 there are many things pertaining to the Spirit and Spiritual Gifts. Not just prophets. Why do the Adventist dwell on prophets only? 10. 1Cor. 14:32 says "The spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints." Who was EGW subject to? Even Jesus knew that 2 or 3 witnesses were important. Iron sharpeneth Iron. We are all given SG when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit. We all fit together and all are subject to one another. There is not one of us that is more important than another. Some of us are the unseemly parts but still the same. There is no head but Christ. 11. EGW's writings are so confusing. I have seen more than one person try to commit suicide over her. She confuses people. She had a double standard. She was not a prophet of God. 12. I question the way she received her visions. It sounds more like demon posession to me. 13. When a prophet is from God he has control of his mind. He is not taken over. It is decent and orderly. 1Cor.14:29 says "And let 2 or 3 prophets speak, and let the others pass judgement. But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, let the first keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;" They were suppose to be able to listen and sometimes not talk. This is not being taken over. Where were the other prophets to pass judgement on EGW? I think the Adventist Church has mislead many, and abused the gift of prophecy. Wasn't there a big charismatic movement in the 1800"s. Maybe EGW was satan's way of impersonating God. We need to line other books and authors up with the word of God. Not the other way around. I have learned much from many books. But the Bible is the Best. We need to be like the Bereans. The final "straw" was when I did "SPIRITUAL GIFTS" by Precept Ministries. I did not agree with every conclusion that Kay Authur comes up with. But... it gave me a more total picture and a more balanced one of Spiritual Gifts and prophets. A very in depth study, for anyone who is interested. No one had to be afraid of EGW. for God says that "you shall not be afraid of him." Deut.18:22 Just some thoughts. I am continuing to pray for all of you. | ||
| Sherry2 |
That was very helpful, Joni. Thank you. | ||
| Chyna |
that was very well articulated. i printed it out to show my adventist friend :) in Him, Chyna | ||
| Joni |
Sherry2 You are welcome. As I said it is not a teaching, it is what I saw that helped me. Chyna, I have been praying for you. I don't post much, but do get a chance to read at times. When I am emotional or have decisions to make my most wonderful husband advises me not to make them when I am at the peak of my troubles. He says to wait and sit on it before I come to any decisions. I have used this many times. Good things come to those who wait. Take your time, live your life, and seek God's face for your answer. Many have given you wise advise on this forum. I know it is hard but you need to realease your X b/f into the hands of God. BTW my husband went to Loma Linda Medical School. When he finished he was an agnostic. He now believes again and we go to a Sunday Church. There is hope for you. But you need to sit in the arms of Jesus and wait for whatever and however He leads. I find that when I give up and tell Jesus that I only want His will in my life, no matter how it turns out, thats when things start to happen. Anyway, lots of motherly love to you. Joni | ||
| Chyna |
dear joni, thank you so much for your prayers and advice. I do realize that this is a very tumultuous time in my life and that while there is nothing more I'd rather do than be with my ex-b/f I realize the impossibility of the situation. he does need something in the inner workings of his heart. i was describing to my mother the different doctrines that my ex-b/f espoused and she said that she was fooled also because he came to church with me during the summer without a qualm. I feel really blessed that even though this is probably the most difficult emotional time I've had in my life, my spiritual life is getting stronger from clinging to God and learning from His word. thank you, again, Chyna | ||
| Billthompson |
To All, First, let me say hello to everyone here. I have followed this site with great pleasure and been greatly blessed by it. The experiences of most of the former SDAs here reflect my own in some very incredible ways. This is my first time to participate in the forum, however. Now, onto the subject of this article "Out of Africa". I read this with great interest. I have looked into this 1888 message many times. My impression is that Jones and Waggoner (and more recently Weiland and Short) actually caught a glimpse of the true Gospel message but had their view badly distorted by some things they already took to be truth, things that they felt must not be given up for the Gospel and thus they tried to push the true Gospel into their own mold and came up with a "false gospel" which has some of the ingrediants of the true but is still a false gospel. The things they held onto were of course SDA/EGW ideas which could not be questioned. Such as, the Great Controversy theme where it is up to us to vindicate God (a bizzar concept if you can back up enough to see it for what it really is), the idea that God will not return until there is a people hear on earth with perfected characters, that the SDA movement itself was God's chosen "last days" movement, that the Sabbath-keeping undersatnding of SDAs was absolutely true and a test for salvation in the last days. Now the heavy baggage they tried to hang onto while attempting to understand that salvation is by grace and not works left them unable to see the simplisity of the True Gospel for what it really is. Thus, they came up with a confusing, complicated idea there is a different plan of salvation for the "last days" (last generation on earth). All generations living on earth can be saved by grace through faith in Christ alone, apart from works...all generations but the last one. The last generation must achieve "character perfection" and one of the ways this will occur is evidenced by keeping the 10 commandments, especially the 4th. Isn't it clear that these poor men had developed a false plan of salvation for the last generation living on earth, even after glimpsing the true gospel message of grace and applying it to all generations but the last? See what the Bible says here: I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 1:6-8 Apparently, they found it easier to question and alter their understanding of the nature of Christ, the significance of the cross and clear teaching from the Bible (such as the quote above) in favor of their own peculiar denominational distinctives. A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thomspon | ||
| Patti |
BILL! So GOOD to hear from you! Would love to talk to you personally about the "old days" and "old friends." Hope you and your family are well! Please give them my love. I have been through your neck of the woods several times lately and have thought of you. Will be going through again next weekend. God bless! Write me if you get the notion. Your former classmate, Patti | ||
| Billthompson |
Hi Patti! Imagine bumping into a former _____ _____ Junior Academy classmate here in cyber space! Small world...great to hear from you again. Bill Thompson | ||
| Patti |
I think that most of us _______ _______ Jr. Academy kids are formers now. Unfortunately, we did not all leave for the Gospel. God bless! Hope to see more of you here... Patti drpatti@msn.com | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Bill T and Y'all Bill: Glad you have been following for a while. Even "gladder" you have posted! Keep it up! I think it's neat to re-meet old friends. I'd love to run across someone from A.W. Spaulding in Collegedale Tenn. that was in 1st, 2nd or 3rd grade in '66, '67 and '68. Anybody know anyone that fits those years, please tell them about this site. I used to post a lot but due to some circumstances, I am only scanning quickly when I check my mail. I should be able to get back "at it" in a couple months. I've really missed a lot in the last month. All the discussion with Breezy and others is so involved now that I may never get to know them ? :-(( Anyway, Y'all have been keeping it lively. Ever onward and upward...Maryann | ||
| Breezy |
Hi Maryann, Glad you're still around! I would like to get to know you to but unfortunately I won't have much access soon here. I'll be checking my e-mail every couple of weeks once I go down. Maybe someone can help me understand why everyone cannot believe that it is possible to be a grace oriented SDA. The different doctrines of the church along with Ellen White, when put into their proper places are not burdensome. I have taken the best of what I learned about grace and incorporated it into my life. I have no burdens, for Christ has taken them for me. I have no fear for their is nothing to fear. Jesus himself gave the parable of the virgins. Jesus himself said to watch and wait and not be caught sleeping. This is not Adventist doctrine. I hear this when I listen to Jack Van Impe and Hal Lindsey. There is no fear in following Christ's advice. I am sorry Bill if you felt fear and burdens. But you were not fellowshipping with true christians. Fear is from Satan, not from God. When you accept grace you may still hold the beliefs you had, it is just that Christ transforms our perceptions of these events because we realize we are saved, we have nothing to fear because He is with us through it all. There will be fearful times. Fearful for those who do not know how to rest in Jesus. I am resting in Jesus, therefore I have no fear. Simple! God Bless you all! Wendy | ||
| Steve |
Hi Breezy/Wendy, I am one who would (hopefully) never say that it is "impossible" to be a grace oriented SDA. However, grace oriented SDAs are extremely rare. For instance, of all the SDA pastors I've known, I know ONE who seems to be truly grace oriented. However, in being grace oriented, it is clear to me that one cannot be truly grace oriented and hold to ALL the teachings of EGW as they are commonly understood. I think you have an uncommon understanding of EGW, which allows you to steer clear of the inherent problems. There are (most likely) true believers in all faiths. But those believers do not buy, hook, line and sinker into every teaching of their respective groups. It appears that you fall into that category. That is refreshing. The vast majority of SDAs do not avoid all of the snares that have been laid for them. I, for one, was a forgiveness-oriented SDA. (I didn't really have a grasp of grace, which, of course, includes forgiveness.) But when I came to the realization that I had bought into some of the myths about EGW, I knew that I had compromised Christ and His unconditional message of grace and love. So I hope you don't feel that folks (at least I) would ever say that it's IMPOSSIBLE to be a grace-oriented SDA (with God, all things are possible.) But many of us would probably say that it's very, very difficult. And I would prefer to avoid that difficulty. Based on previous posts, it appears that you are involved in an SDA church that is unlike the vast majority of SDA churches in this country (US). Unfortunately, I believe the vast majority of SDA churches are correct in their understanding of EGW and SDA doctrine. And I cannot go along with that. If I cannot go along with the organizations teachings, I feel that I really have no communion with them. I must seek fellowship in a group of believers where there is a more historical understanding of the gospel, rather than one which believes that "full" gospel of "present truth" has begun to be preached only since the early 1800's. Remember, Jude 3: Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you CONTEND EARNESTLY FOR THE FAITH WHICH WAS ONCE FOR ALL HANDED DOWN TO THE SAINTS. There is no such thing as present truth. The Faith was "once and for all" delivered by the time Jude wrote his letter. Many that you interact with on this website, as I'm sure you know, are simply following the appeal of Jude and are contending earnestly. That's why many of us seem to be so down on the SDA church. But we love SDAs (hey, I still am one!) and only wish truth to prevail in their hearts and minds. Praise God that you have no fear. That's not a common experience (not only for SDAs, but for anyone caught up in an institutional religious organization.) I'm learning that the only fear I have anymore is that spoken of by Solomon in Proverbs 10:27a: The fear of the LORD prolongs life. God Bless you Wendy, Steve | ||
| Breezy |
Thank you Steve. That was very compassionate and understanding. And very helpful. God Bless you also and please take care, Wendy | ||
| Joni |
Maryann, The last I heard you had surgury. I do pray that you are healing and getting stronger. My prayers are with you. "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired. His understanding is inscrutable. He gives strength to the weary, and to him who lacks might He increases power. Though youths grow weary and tired and vigorous young men stumble badly, yey those who wait (wait=bound together)for the LORD will gain new strength. (gain=renew=exchange, we exchange Jesus strength for ours.) They will mount up with wings like eagles, they will run and not get tired, they will walk and not become weary." Isaiah 40:28-31. This is one of my special verses, a blessing to me, I hope and pray it will be for you. Joni | ||
| Joni |
Wendy, I have a wonderful Adventist friend from the last church we attended. She was my reason for continuing to go. She is very grace oriented and continues to hold up the Bible in Church. Slowly her grace is getting through to some of the others. I truly feel that God wants her there. I also truly feel that if anyone has a r/s with God and confesses Jesus as their saviour, they will be saved. I believe many Adventists will be saved. The woman I met the other day who is so worried about me, who dosen't "believe everything EGW wrote either" Just cannot understand that God is leading me. Because I am not in the true Church. I just asked her to continue praying for me. I love her dearly. Did you know that in Matt. 25, both the foolish and the prudent virgins slept?? The difference was the prudent had the oil. The foolish did not. The difference is the Holy Spirit. Their will be some who have no oil. Whether they are Adventists or Baptists, or whatever they are. I pray each day the Lord's prayer for myself and those on my prayer list. I pray each day for the Holy Spirit who God placed in me will lead me and that I will continue to listen. I pray for a closer relationship with the Lord Jesus. Sometimes I "feel" like I don't even know Jesus. But I trust that the Word is true and God will finish the work He started in me. My prayer is that we all are be baptized by the Holy Spirit and go about the comission of preaching the Gospel, the good news that Jesus came to save us from our sins, He died, was buried and God rose Him from the dead and He is now at the right hand of the Father. That He always lives to make intersession for us. That we can trust His Word. That the same power that raised Christ from the grave is at work in all of us. That we have this power available to us to work. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; There is neither Adventist or Baptist, for you are all one in Christ Jesus, And if you belong to Christ then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:28,29 God bless you Wendy, May you continue to do the will of the LORD. Joni | ||
| Billthompson |
Breezy, I agree with many things you said above. Yes, the parable of the virgins is of course in the Bible and was given by Jesus, I did not mean to say it was not. You had previously used this parable in a question about how former SDAs survive without EGW prophecy about the last days. What has changed in my life is the belief that the Gospel (or plan of salvation) will not be different for the last generation on earth (Galatians 1:6-8), that this last generation will be saved in the same way as all generations, by grace, through faith in Christ alone...not by a higher test of "character perfection" which will include sabbath keeping, vegetarianism and other works of the flesh during a end time period when "probation has closed" and Christ no longer intercedes for us in heaven. These are the things I learned as a SDA which made me fear the return of our Lord (or the time just before His return) and I now see as very harmful. You said yourself, "we have nothing to fear because He is with us through it all" so perhaps you do not believe what the SDA church teaches about the last generation and the time where Christ will no longer intercede and they will need perfected characters, etc. You also said, "we realize we are saved"...amen, sister, I agree. When I was a SDA we were taught that "sister White" admonished us never to say such a thing. I do not believe it is impossible to be a grace oriented SDA, you may be a good example, yourself, I don't know you that well yet. Most SDAs I talk to claim to be grace oriented, however as discussion goes on it turns out they are "grace, BUT..." oriented. That is "we are saved by grace, BUT we must then...or we'll be lost in the IJ", etc. In Christ, Bill Thompson | ||
| Patti |
My mom and I call that the "Big 'But'" syndrome. It is not unique to SDAs. There are many denominations that support it (sometimes I think more than who believe in the sufficiency of our salvation in Jesus Christ ALONE), and many Christians who believe it. | ||
| Billthompson |
Patti, I agree, however, what is unique about SDAs is their belief that there will come a time when Christ will no longer intercede and this generation of Christians must have "character perfection", an even darker "different gospel" from the other "psuedo-gospel" lurking about in "Christian" circles. Of course this all fits in with their strange "great controversy" scheme where God needs us to vindicate Him...blasphemey! I Stand Amazed In the Presence... Bill Thompson | ||
| Breezy |
Patti, Your "big but" syndrome made me chuckle when I was having a really bad day. Been teary all day. Thank you. Wendy |
