| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker |
There's a context to the passage from 1 Cor. 11:27-32. (This is, I believe, the passage that has triggered this recent discussion.) Paul was chastising the Corinthians for meeting together to eat their Agape feasts (at which they celebrated the Lord's Supper) and turning them into class-exclusive, self-indulgent meals. The poor would be excluded from the company of the rich, and many would come hungry and eat most of the food while others went hungry. Paul specifically said, "A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself." There actually are two ways the above text can be explained. One is that if someone takes the Lord's Supper without reverencing the Lord, he brings judgment on himself. The other view is that if a person partakes of the Lord's Supper without respecting and caring the the body of the Lord (fellow membersóthe CHURCHó) he brings judgment on himself. Paul goes on to say that this lack of recognition for the body of the Lord is the reason "a number of you have fallen aslseep. But if we judged ourself we would not come under judgment. when we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world." Bottom line: Paul is saying to examine ourselves. He is calling us to be accountable for our motives. He is not saying we have to "be good" to be saved. He is saying that if we don't examine ourselves and be honest about our motives and actions, God will discipline us in order to spare us from being lost. No, we are NOT saved even one iota by our works. Yes, as Christ-followers we are to be accountable to Christ and to our fellow believers for our motives and actions. God does ask us to live for him. But this living for him is entirely the product of allowing the Holy Spirit to teach us, reveal our nasty habits and attitudes, and let Him change us. According to Paul, God even disciplines us to help us grow to be like him. But all of this growth is AFTER salvation. It is not part of it. It is what happens as we grow more and more deeply in love with our Lord. We're talking about a love relationship, not a contractual agreement. Salvation is 100% the result of grace. It is a completely free gift from our Creator and Savior. Praise God that he loves us and continues to deal with us even after he saves us. Our futures are safe with him! Praise Him! Colleen | ||
| Rayna |
No sinless people yet? Must keep trying to make it as that is the only way God accepts us daily, unless one believes in the perfect sinless imputed righteousness of Jesus as their sinlessness before God, and rest in this truth. Will keep looking for the post from that one person that makes it through the day as a bright shining light, no faults, no mistakes, no wrong words, no wrong attitude, only perfect love glowing. Facing reality here? Measuring your Christian growth?? How far to go?? Keep on working. No rest.!!! At the end of the day look back, can you bow before God and say I made it God, no sin today. Not jesting here, just facing the truth. | ||
| Rayna |
I tell you also I have tried to be a witness by my fruits. Let me tell you people like fruit, they will be back for more and possibly be angry if you do not produce it. Even if you do, they can and will harrass you take your fruit and run. But when you present Jesus as the sinless one, and Gods gift to the world, they find that boring. They want to know where is the fruit? Believe me, I know whereof I speak. Been there and done that, true fact. They don't want to hear boring. They may even fall asleep and wake up in time to grab their share of your fruit. Believe me the dividing line is Jesus. Who accepts Him by faith, after preaching the gospel of God's love in the gift of His Son. Sure there is kindness and love on our part, but that is not the message, neither am I sinless perfection. My human nature will probably come through. I will testify that I am a sinner too, saved only by God's grace and mercy given to me in Jesus. Believe me, I have been made to look very foolish, and naive, by my good works and fruit. Did not gain a single convert, but people looking for more fruit. | ||
| Rayna |
Allenette, I think you understand the post above. I have read some of your comments before. Anyway, still a sinner here, but trusting only in the merits of Jesus before God's throne for my acceptance with God today. Resting in His love, and not my works by the Holy Spirit today. Rejoicing in the fact that I am accepted in the Beloved, that there is no condemnation for me before God, as Jesus is my righteousness in heaven. So thankful that I have such a loving Father God and can come into His presence at anytime in the name of Jesus, the perfect offering. In Christian love, Rayna | ||
| Rayna |
Max, you did not answer Patti's question with a yes or no. Have you stopped sinning? Have you arrived? Just a simple yes or no will suffice. Sounds like from your answer you are still a sinner fighting with you evil nature. Guess what? That will go on a life time. Everyday must trust only to the perfect righteousness of Jesus before God's throne for our acceptance with Him. We fall short, way short every day of our lives on earth. When faced with death my testimoney will only be of Jesus and His merits before God's throne. I will have surety of salvation because of the sinless righteousness of Jesus before God's throne, not by measuring my spiritual growth. I will still confess that I am sinner and rest in the assurance of salvation of the love of God in the gift of Jesus to me. | ||
| Patti |
Maryann, The answer is in the verses themselves. There is no need for me to explain them. Look, start in verse 20 and read the entire passage: 20 When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21 for as you eat, EACH OF YOU GOES AHEAD WITHOUT WAITING FOR ANYBODY ELSE. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. 22 Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not! This is talking about going to church and eating the bread to the point that you are full and drinking the wine until you are drunk! 23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. And just WHAT is "eating and drinking in an unworthy manner"? 29 FOR ANYONE WHO EATS AND DRINKS WITHOUT RECOGNIZING THE BODY OF THE LORD EATS AND DRINKS JUDGMENT UPON HIMSELF. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world. 33 So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, WAIT FOR EACH OTHER. 34 IF ANYONE IS HUNGRY, HE SHOULD EAT AT HOME, SO THAT WHEN YOU MEET TOGETHER IT MAY NOT RESULT IN JUDGMENT. And when I come I will give further directions. You see, Maryann, this passage is not about having sin in our lives IN THE LEAST. We all have sin in our lives. This is specific instruction to a specific church in which, evidently, people were coming to church and wining and dining quite heartily at the Communion table. The element of "not waiting for anybody else" is present also. For them, it was not a sacred rite, but a potluck, and those who got there first were getting quite well fed (even drunk on the wine), and those who came later missed out entirely. There are four points I would like to make here: 1. It is dangerous to base a belief on a text that is removed from its context. 2. If you study a passage and its surrounding verses and chapters, nine times out of ten, the seeming conflict will work itself out. 3. All of the Scriptures must be judged and interpreted by the Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ alone. 4. Beware of traditional interpretations of texts. SDAs are especially good at lifting a text (like this one) from its context and building an entire doctrine around it. Nearly every prooftext that I have heard all my life to 'prove' certain things, upon further study, I have found to be false, such as the infamous 'demons believe' passage that legalists try to push off on us who believe that Jesus Christ is our full salvation. | ||
| Max |
Blessings Rayna, You're right, I didn't answer the question -- have I stopped sinning? -- with a yes or a no. Nor did Paul. But I am still perfect in Christ. Proof: Hebrews 10:11-14 NIV: ^^Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest has offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he [Christ] has made PERFERCT FOREVER those who are being made holy.^^ And if perfection doesn't mean sinlessness in this context, what does it mean? Therefore I am also sinless in Christ. Perfect forever = sinless forever. And not just in some future glorified state after Christ's Second Coming: Now! Here! In this life! Perfect forever! Sinless forever! All in and of Christ! None in or of myself! It doesn't matter what others think! It doesn't matter that others grab the figs and grapes and pomegranets that the Holy Spirit bears through the branch that I am in Christ! It doesn't matter that they take them to their own roadside produce stand and sell them at a profit which they rack up in their own bank accounts! It doesn't matter, because I am perfectly sinless forever in Christ alone! Humans look upon the outward appearance, see figs and grapes and pomegranets hanging on Christ's branches. As a result, some accept him. Others don't. What is that to me? I follow Christ. Some grab the fruit and claim it as their own -- claim credit for my work, get me fired and themselves promoted. What is that to me? I follow Christ. And still, in and of myself, I am still a sinner. A sinner and sinless at the same time! Praise God! Blessing you, Rayna, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Thank you, Colleen, for that beautiful post! You hit the target, as usual, dead center. I want to repeat your conclusion here in case anyone missed it. ^^Bottom line: Paul is saying to examine ourselves. He is calling us to be accountable for our motives. He is not saying we have to "be good" to be saved. He is saying that if we don't examine ourselves and be honest about our motives and actions, God will discipline us in order to spare us from being lost. No, we are NOT saved even one iota by our works. Yes, as Christ-followers we are to be accountable to Christ and to our fellow believers for our motives and actions. God does ask us to live for him. But this living for him is entirely the product of allowing the Holy Spirit to teach us, reveal our nasty habits and attitudes, and let Him change us. According to Paul, God even disciplines us to help us grow to be like him. But all of this growth is AFTER salvation. It is not part of it. It is what happens as we grow more and more deeply in love with our Lord. We're talking about a love relationship, not a contractual agreement. Salvation is 100% the result of grace. It is a completely free gift from our Creator and Savior. Praise God that he loves us and continues to deal with us even after he saves us. Our futures are safe with him!^^ Praising God for YOU, Colleen! I never knew you in your "before Christ" days, so I'll only have to take your word for it. But your "after Christ" days are filled with glorious fruit of the Spirit. Richard too. I see the fruit that the sap of the Holy Spirit has born through the branches that are you and Richard, and I glorify Jesus who is in the kingdom of God. For that kingdom is among us!* Max of the Cross *Luke 17:20-21 | ||
| Max |
Now, I have a single question for you, Rayna: Do you guard your fruit? | ||
| Patti |
Max wrote: You're right, I didn't answer the question -- have I stopped sinning? -- with a yes or a no. Nor did Paul. On the contrary, Max. He answered this with a resounding "No!" Romans 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that **Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.** 10 As it is written: "**There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. (No one even SEEKS God, according to Paul and David.) 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, NOT EVEN ONE." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." 14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, (I wish we could use HTML highlights still on this forum, but since we cannot PLEASE NOTICE THIS VERSE): 23 for all have sinned and fall (present, continuous tense) short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but **I cannot carry it out.** 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 **What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?** 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but **in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.** 1 Timothy 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he **CONSIDERED me faithful**, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--**of whom I AM the worst.** 16 But for that very reason **I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.** 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen. And Amen. | ||
| Max |
Patti, I hope I can still differ with you and remain in your good graces. Bless you in Christ, Max of the Cross | ||
| Patti |
What exactly does "guarding your fruit" mean? | ||
| Max |
^^Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.^^ --Matthew 16:24-27 NIV. | ||
| Max |
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. --from Matthew 5 | ||
| Max |
6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. --from Luke 13 | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti and Rayna, First, I really am glad we have the privilege of having discussions like this. Second, I think that the disagreement between some of us is NOT so much our theology as what we are talking about. Righteousness in God's sight comes in 2 packages. 1...WE, wretched sinners with NO redeeming value of our own are, OF OUR OWN SELVES, totally disgusting and repulsive to God. 2...WE, wretched sinners with NO redeeming value of our own are, THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, totally sinless to God. Number 2 is me! And praise God for that! And to answer the question, yes, and a resounding YES, I am perfect and sinless. THROUGH JESUS I AM PERFECT AND SINLESS! That is the only way I can be perfect and sinless. What is so hard about understanding that I understand that. Rayna, why are you saying that you are looking around for a perfect person and want to see them? In the context of ALL that has been said, that is rather mean to take all this out of context and hit a person over the head with it. I'll say it again, what is the point of having and pruning fruit tree's if they don't bear fruit?????? Why are there parables about "FRUIT?" Why do fruit trees get axed when they don't produce fruit???? We DON'T produce fruit "to be saved" We produce fruit "because we are saved!!" Back to 1 Cor. 11....Start at verse 17...In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18...In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19...No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval." Paul is warning them about their attitudes. Are the believer's that he is talking to saved? I would think so! Going on in the chapter, Paul is telling them that the Lord's table is not Denny's and to eat before they go to Church. Again, he is warning them about actions. Verse 28...A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. I figure if "examine" is written there we should examine why it is there. Skipping up to verse 32....When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world." I don't take this to mean we lose our salvation when we are disciplined. In fact, this means to me that we need to watch our actions unless we want to be disciplined by the Lord! Paul was admonishing the believers for something other than to practice his handwriting. He was telling them to produce "fruits of the Spirit!" So, what was the point of producing "fruits of the Spirit?" I'm going to take a guess that it would really look ugly for new believers and seeking un-believers to come in there and see a bunch of hungry hounds fighting over bread and juice. Verse 17...they are being scolded because they are fixing to "do more harm than good". If they are to not to do harm, they are to do good. That un-deniable puts importance to producing "fruits of the Spirit" even though you are a beliver! And because you are a believer;-) As you pointed out so well, Patti, they were to clean up their act before Church and the Lord's table. That was done by examining their fruits and judging them. As to verses 17 and 18....Even though we seem to be reading the SAME Bible but different pages at the same time, lets not fall under the admonition of Paul too and try to UNDERSTAND what the other guy is saying;-)) Upward and onward.....Maryann | ||
| Rayna |
Max,I don't guard my fruit. Anyway, it is not perfect. It has bruising, probably some worms. Anyway, telling others about my fruits or just giving it away is not the gospel. But some people will take what they can get for free. Read my posts above. So glad I have the opportuity to witness on this site of the true gospel and not about my fruit. By the way, I think I see the difference in your belief and mine. You are referring to Jesus in you as your righteousness. And I am referring to Jesus in Heaven at the right hand of God as my righteousness. I believe in a spotless righteousness that can not be seen in this lifetime in me or anyone else. I can only tell others about this wonderful righteousness in heaven that justifies me before God. In myself I claim only to be a sinner even with the help of the Holy Spirit. You must believe that Jesus in you performs sinless works which can be seen. If you want to believe this that is your right, but it is not mine nor ever will be. Maybe I am wrong, but this is what I am picking up from you. Let me know. In Christian love with all respect to you, Rayna | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Rayna, I'm still trying to understand the mis-understanding going on! Here is an old post to Patti, could you respond: "By Maryann on Monday, September 25, 2000 - 01:17 pm: Hi Max, Whoaaaah, wooooow! I didnít realize that, that concept/command? was so clear in the Bible! I too have been a victim of the, ìJudge not that ye be not judgedî syndrome! I feel like I must clarify something though. I have found that this ìjudge not that ye be not judgedî syndrome is rampant in other than SDA Churches. In fact, for many of the guys at work that know no other Bible verse, they quote this to zealous Bible thumpers that try to hit them over the head with their critical, legalistic view of things. Iím sitting here shaking my head trying to figure out why this ìfruitî thing is such a problem. Picture me with a You-Pick peach orchard. The people come swarming in to pick fruit and there is no fruit! The people ask me where the fruit is and I go off into this testimony of how wonderful God is to have given me such a beautiful peach orchard. The people ask again, ìwhereís the fruit?î And I tell them, ìoh, the fruit is NOT important, just the trees!î They do a double gulp and seeing their confusion I say, ìplease donít judge my peach orchard because it has no fruit, the fruit has nothing to do with my beautiful Peach orchard!î They walk off muttering that they could find a crab apple orchard that would produce better than my orchard! To make sure my point is understood, my peach orchard = my salvation. The peaches = good fruit. The crab apple orchard = some other strain of heretical teaching like JWís or Muslimís. Well, this is the 3rd time I wrote this as my ëputer ate the other two! Grrrrrrrrr And my mouth is sore as I had two biopsies on my tongue this morning;-)) Upward and onward......Maryann" | ||
| Max |
Greetings and blessings Rayna, Thanks for answering my question about guarding fruit: You don't! That's great. For me fruit-guarding, to change the metaphor, is like hiding one's light under a bushel. And so my guess is that you're not hiding your light under a bushel either! Bruised and wormy? Yeah, mine too! But in God the Father's eyes -- because he is looking at God the Son's fruit -- it's not bruised and wormy. It's perfect. I took what you said, "some people will take what they can get for free," as referring to some unfortunate events/relationships in your life. That's why I quoted the verse about throwing one's life away in order to save it. I don't know, though, if that's what applies to you. But what applies to me is this: Throwing one's life away in order to save it doesn't mean throwing one's life away by following a dysfunctional spouse, for example. It means, rather, throwing one's life away by following Christ. More next post, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Rayna again, ^^Read my posts above.^^ I've read them all carefully. ^^So glad I have the opportuity to witness on this site of the true gospel and not about my fruit.^^ Don't you think that witnessing of the true gospel IS your fruit? ^^I think I see the difference in your belief and mine. You are referring to Jesus in you as your righteousness. And I am referring to Jesus in Heaven at the right hand of God as my righteousness.^^ I am referring to Jesus in me as my righteousness AND Jesus in heaven at the right hand of God as my righteousness. Even more than that, I believe there can be no possible distinction between the two: Jesus says over and over in John's Gospel: I am in my Father and my Father is in me. I am in you (in Max) and you are in me. And so we are all one. ^^I believe in a spotless righteousness that can not be seen in this lifetime in me or anyone else.^^ And I would agree with that, but I would also assert: I believe in a spotless righteousness that CAN be seen in this lifetime in me AND in anyone else. For when I give a cup of cold refreshing water to a hot and thirsty "little one," I am giving it to a hot and thirsty Jesus. Conversely, since Jesus is in me, when the "little one" receives the cup she is receiving it from Jesus! How can this not be so if Jesus is in me as he says he is in, for example, John 17? ^^I can only tell others about this wonderful righteousness in heaven that justifies me before God.^^ Can you also DO for others, as in the cup of cold refreshing water example? Isn't DOING just as much fruit as TELLING? ^^In myself I claim only to be a sinner even with the help of the Holy Spirit.^^ Me too. But the Holy Spirit takes my "claim" and with groanings unutterable by me changes them into the sinlessness of Christ. ^^You must believe that Jesus in you performs sinless works which can be seen. If you want to believe this that is your right, but it is not mine nor ever will be.^^ I would hope that you would reconsider. Or at least try to comprehend my point of view and compare it with Scripture. Likewise in Christian love, respect and blessings to you, Max of the Cross |
