| Author | Message | ||
| Lori |
You know Colleen, I think the biggest deception in Adventism IS the fact that they CAN READ their Bibles. The Bible is not a forbidden object in Adventism. They raise the Bible up very high and this makes it seem like a very Biblical church. However, an objective look at a Sabbath School quarterly proves just the opposite. My dad was here over the weekend and attempted to engage me in a "battle" over end time events. He brought up the movie "Left Behind"; he wanted to know if I had seen it. I answered honestly "Yes, I have seen it our next door neighbor had a copy of it. I wasn't impressed with the movie." He continued with: "It's not just that, it's not Biblical-----It's not Biblical with my understanding of end time events". I don't know what his motive where. (I assumed it was to see how "far off" I had gone since I left the church) I didn't even ask him if he had seen it. I knew that if I engaged in an end time events conversation with him it would not be productive. I'm trying to learn my husbands technique of avoiding arguments on religious issues. I know my dad wasn't asking the question because he wanted to know if what he believed was true or not. Any conflicting remarks from me would have only ended in hurt feelings and would have erected a wall between us again. Sometimes its just better to let the comments hang unanswered. End time events are certainly not a starting place with an Adventist. My own comments to my non-SDA husband used to be: "But what if you are wrong? what if there is no rapture? At least I'll know what to expect". ---The last comment usually was directed at his back as he walked away-- Adventist pride themselves on this point. If there is a rapture that's great, but if there isn't I'M GOING TO KNOW WHAT TO DO (keep the Sabbath!!) AND YOU'RE NOT!!! It's all about exclusion--it's all about legalism. | ||
| Valm |
Hi there girlfriends, (And also Hi to the guys who might be lurking) Lori, Your Dad operates like my Dad he looks for a window of opportunity to draw one into a conversation on an agenda he has already in mind. My Dad is a little more subtle in the fact that he will use just about anything. Once it was he wanted to show me how his computer worked and then by showing me it he just happened to open up EGW stuff and copied something he thought I needed to read. I could see myself in the same situation and I would have said to my Dad, "it certainly does not concur with your Biblical understanding of the end time. But it might have made for an interesting couple of hours and would have been revealing as to what other people believe." I have not thought much of the rapture and did not watch the movie. Why? Well I came to the conclusion what ever was going to happen; and as long as I clung to the gospel message that whatever was not going to matter. Being ready became a non issue for me. And I have always wondered if being ready for the rapture was just more of the same as being ready for the second coming but just a different doctrine. And I wondered also if people that get all excited about this doctrine are looking for something more than the Gospel message to get excited about. It is just my opinion. I hope this will not t be misconstrued. I respect those how believe in it and if it for them brings them hope and assurance of being with Jesus, so be it. It just doesn't matter one way or the other to me. I remember the last Sabbath School class I attended. when questions were asked the people all quoted a quote from EGW whether it was the leader asking the question to his class or a class member asking it to the teacher. I sat there and just wanted to say "Hey wait a minute what DO YOU THINK not what does EGW say." But out of respect for my parents I sat there and was quietly amused. One other thing worth noting is that the SDA church seldom involves itself on many contemporary issues as EGW had nothing to say about them. Issues I see worth involvement are: Civil rights, abortion, care of people with AIDS, homeless, substance abuse of many kinds, sexual abuse, care of our environment, and the list could go on. (I have always been outraged that SDAs do not take strong issues on environmental care given the "health message"; but EGW never talked about caring for the environment!) Anyhow enough of this. For whatever reason there are people in Adventism and I do agree with Colleen that some are lead there for reasons beyond our understanding. It seems like such a contradiction in terms as I do believe this is a highly adulterated form of the gospel message. The key to leaving Adventism is in reading the Bible only and being receptive to the possibility that there may be truth beyond the stringent limitations set up by the SDA church. And many people just are not ready to think outside of the box...... Valerie | ||
| Doug222 |
Valerie and Lori, I second what both of you said about reading the Bible. Lori, you said that the sad thing about Adventism is that we have the Bible but don't read it. Valerie, you said the key to leaving Adventism is reading the Bible only and being receptive to the possiblity that there may be truth outside the stringent guidelines set forth by the church. This is so true. Over the last several weeks, I have spent time reading the epistles. I always considered myself somewhat knowledgeable of spiritual issues; but have been amazed as I feel like I am suddenly reading the Bible for the first time. I've heard the argument about how "other churches" take verses out of context and build doctrines on them, but I am finding the same thing within the SDA Church. The Sabbath School lesson is a classic example. It very rarely deals with a specific passage of scripture. Instead, it strings several texts together to make a point. Many times, you're not even sure what the text has to do with the point the writer is making. Only as we return to the Bible alone with the Holy Spirit as our guide can we have the veil removed. As a side note, a friend reported something to me that was in this past week's lesson. I was explaining some of my new found beliefs--especially as it relates to the new covenant. She pointed out a question that was asked that said: "How do you deal with a church member wo is upset by things happening in the church and is thus causing disunity. At the same time, is unity at any cost a biblical principal? For example, if a group of church members, or even a pastor, were teaching that the Sabbath was no longer binding and that violating it was not a sin, would dealing with them be appropriate, even at the cost of unity? Who decides over which factors, if any, are worth splitting a church?" This subtle propagandizing of the church is what paralyzes members from reading the Bible for understanding. Certainly SDA's read the Bible, but only through the carefully filtered views of the denomination. No one would dare trust their own interpretation, or even worse, the Holy Spirit's. Afterall, "we've been told that new light is not possible." Just my $.02 worth. Doug | ||
| Lydell |
Yeah a large part of the problem is what it is you are reading in the Bible. If you are focusing on the endtime prophecies, it is very easy to get into Adventism as well as stay there (which is what happened to us, I'm afraid). If you focus on "if you love me keep my commandments" then you are likely to continually end up going back to the OT. If your interest is all in rules and regulations and what you can DO, then those are the only passages that you are likely to "read". It's only when we are open to the Spirit's leading and taching that we can truly literally "read" the scriptures. | ||
| Chyna |
Dear friends, I am listening to an awesome lecture series! It's actually on Dante's Divine Comedy, but since the three largest influences on the Divine Comedy are the Bible, Virgil, and St. Augustine I've been learning so much. One of the points they made in the first lecture was that in the early church they mull over very much and discussed often how the Old Testament is not the complete picture (likewise you can't just read the inferno without purgatorio and paradiso), and that the Old Testament needs to be read in light of the New Testament! That you can't understand the Old Testament fully without the New Testament! I was so happy that even these professors who may or may not be Christians were being exposed to such important Biblical truths. other things I enjoyed was that they said people believed that the Bible was the second book that God had written. I was all, "Second book???" Turns out they thought that the first book God wrote was the Universe! And that's why we have to read the Bible very carefully so we can understand the first book. I thought that was a very cool way of thinking about things. there was something else, but I forgot, but I was playing it while I was driving so I couldn't take notes. such fun. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Allenette |
If that's the case, who knows HOW MANY books "God" has written....considering how many "worlds" are out there. I still think us humans are quite arrogant when we ASSUME that we are the ULTIMATE that "God" has created. That smacks of infantilism. What if we find out that the "Uni-verse" might actually be an "Multi-verse".....or worse???? Just awonderin.... ;-) | ||
| Violet |
I read yesterday on a Christian Bulletin board about other beings marrying human women. At first I said "no way" but now I would like to know more. Read Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them." KJV Then read Genesis 6 KJV 1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. The NIV calls the "sons of God" angels in Job 1:6. Any comments on this, or is the person who put these 2 verses together way off. Or is this common knowledge and being raised in an SDA school we were sensored from this. | ||
| Allenette |
"Left Behind" is one of the dumbest movies I've ever seen. If one ever wanted a reason to find the Rapture an absurdity from a "loving God" that would be it. As for the possibility of angels having sex with human women, well, if its in the Bible it must be true, right? ....perhaps another screenplay came from it in the 50's, and a remake in the 80's, "Heaven Can Wait", and how about the one with Nicholas CAge a few years ago...I forget thename but it was oh so fuzzy friendly...? And, unless you want to get into a discussion of WHO WROTE THE BIBLE, yes, those quotes are accurate. Dearie me | ||
| Chuckiej |
Hey Val, I had always heard that the Hebrew word used for "sons of God" was *nephilim* and that that word was always used of angels. However, I just checked http://www.blueletterbible.org/, which has Greek and Hebrew references and the Hebrew words are *ben Elohim* which literally means "sons of God." (It has translations, I'm not a Greek or Hebrew scholar :-)) So I'm not sure what to make of it. Even outside SDA circles, there's debate over whether it was angels or godly humans in Genesis. | ||
| Chuckiej |
Whoa! I'm sorry, that should be "Violet" not "Val" My apologies. | ||
| Violet |
Allenetta, I agree that anything in the Bible is true, but how we interput it may be false, that is why I am trying to study more. | ||
| Lori |
Hi, Violet, The term sons of Man does refer to angels and yes they did have sexual relations with the daughters of men. Christ had to be born as true humanity in order to save man from sin. This was Satans effort to "pollute" man so he was no longer "truly human". His goal was to create an entire population that was half angelic/half human. Hence, Christ would not be born as true humanity. This was just one of Satans many attempts to stop Christ from being born/continuing to live as man. | ||
| Lori |
Oops!!! My first sentence should have read: The term sons of God (not sons of Man) does refer to angels......... | ||
| Lori |
P.S. Nephilim means giant. | ||
| Therese |
Hi all, Could this be what EGW is referring to in her statements that there has been amalgamation in the human race that defaced the image of God? What do ya all think? Therese | ||
| Lori |
Therese, If Mrs. White had simply stated that there had been amalgamation in the human race then I would say yes. However, she clearly states that the amalgamation was between "man and beast", "man and animals". Here are her statements: Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men. [Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 3, p. 75] "But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere." [Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 3, p. 64] You can find more on this subject at: http://ellenwhite.org/critica.htm Lori | ||
| Violet |
Then this explains why it specifically says that Noah's generations were "perfect". He must of been all man and no angel. I guess the daughters married to his sons must of also been pure. It still amazes me what is not taught about the Bible in Adventism. | ||
| Allenette |
Well, Noah sure was "no angel" after the alleged flood....;-) Accordingly, his sons made the mistake of seeing him drunk and naked and that's where blacks come from....not that I subscribe to that theory. Boy the ole Bible can be a most confuzin thang ggg | ||
| Valm |
That "certain races of men" statement has always frosted me. How much more racist can you get? And to think that people accept this..... Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Allenette, What theory do you subscribe to? The Bible stories are "alleged" and God is written in quotation marks when you speak of him. So what do you believe? Once when I voiced scepticism about the factual accounts of a Bible story a wise person said "Val read the story and pray for the spiritual message." I realize this is not the way many of my friends here on FAF would subscribe too. But perhaps it would help you, just read the story Allenette. What message does it bring to you? Valerie |
