| Author | Message | ||
| Sherry2 |
# 1 Immediately after Paul lists items from the old covenant he says, "These are a shadow of things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." (Col. 2:16, 17 NIV.) If the practices of the Colossians regarding the "food, drink, festival, new moon and Sabbath" were a perversion, Paul would not have said these were a shadow of Christ! As a note to that as well, Paul wouldn't conclude that perversions of these days found their reality in Christ. That would not make sense at all. Thank you for your shares, Lori. Very helpful, and truthful. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Thanks for those insights, Lori. I really appreciated them. Hebrews does make it clear that Jesus is superior to everything in the O.T.: the patriarchs, the law, the sacrifices, the observances. It also makes it clear that there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God as long as it is called TODAY. It's not just a day every week; Sabbath rest is TODAY! Jesus is all! Colleen | ||
| Chuckiej |
Lori, Sorry for the misunderstanding. Thanks for the clarification! Chuck | ||
| Nate |
Kelly, Colssians 2:16-17, Gal 4:l0, and Romans 14:4+6, put the Sabbath in perspective from three different contexts with three different audiences. One thing is absolutely clear. Paul did not intend that the Sabbath be an issue for judging each other. This being the case, how can it be still binding? The Sabbath is a nice spiritual discipline that is perfectly legit if one wants to take a day and devote it to God, but it is not to be an issue of judgement. What Adventists want to do is make Sabbath an issue for judging others and for legitimizing their system. This is why it is so difficult for them to accept any scriptural evidence that does not fit their system. They want to make the Sabbath a "sign" of loyalty. To fit the image that they have for themselves that they are the only truly faithful ones. That is why they make a big deal out of the Seal of God in the book of revelation. We know from Eph 1:13-14, 4:30 and 11Cor 1:22, That the Holy Spirit is the Seal of God... What is the Holy Spirit's job? ... It is to be the personal presence of Christ in us! Jesus, in us through the Holy Spirit, is the Sabbath rest. That is the Message of Col 2:16-17. The substance is Christ. The symbol of the day pointed forward to the reality of Christ in us. Hebrews 3-4, as others have stated, makes this point absolutely clear. Knowing this, since the seal of God is the personal presence of Jesus in us today through the agency of the Holy Spirit, what is the Dayness of the Sabbath (if it is made to be a saving issue)? It is something that takes the place of the true Seal of God. It is a work. It takes the place of Christ. It is an Anti Christ ("Anti" means "instead of" in the greek) or a replacement for Christ. The Mark of the Beast is about works instead of Faith. Anything that we can do instead of trust only in Christ for our Salvation is Anti Christ. That is why the hand is mentioned in Revelation 13 and 14. The hand has to do with works. The opposite of rest. So what Adventists want to make into a final test is actually the opposite of true rest in Christ. It focuses on an external work (one that the Pauline epistles clearly says should not be made a test) to make it THE TEST for all time. This is anti Christ... Pretty scary isn't it? Adventists insist on ignoring the New Covenant's clear fulfillment of the law in Christ. By insisting on looking through Old Covenant glasses, they cannot see the Good News. They are reading the old will, when there is a new will in effect. The old is no longer valid. To use Pauls terminology in 11Cor 3, the veil is over their eyes. They think that they see, but they are blind to the freedom in Christ. I pray that God will give each of us tender compassion for our brothers and sisters who are still reading the old will. Only The Spirit can grant a glimpse of Jesus that can remove the veil. I was there, I know. This is all fairly new to me too. I was resistant to all of this until one day God just laid it on my heart through seeing his hand so powerfully manifest in the lives of so many genuine Christians that kept no Sabbath. I began to ask some questions and pray for God to guide me. I started to study without bias, and what a Grace awakening! May God bless us all as we study and let us keep those who are still in bondage in our prayers...and remember Gal 5:1. God bless... In Christ, Nate | ||
| Doug222 |
Amen Nate! You mentioned having received a "Grace awakening." Have you read Chuck Swindoll's book by the same title? It is a wonderful discourse in identifying "grace killers"--both in us and around us. He makes mention in his book that he does not ascribe to covenant theology, but he has a great understanding of grace none-the-less. I would highly reccomend the book to anyone who is seeking to better understand the freedom that comes from God's gift of Grace. In His Grace, Doug | ||
| Colleentinker |
Nate, welcome to the forum, and thank you for your thoughtful posts. Our prayers are with you. Colleen | ||
| Graceambassador |
Lori: GREAT POINTS!!! in your statement pasted below, (just as an example) "The adulterous wife has never done what God asked her to--she's always been unfaithful, always sought other gods--God has given this adulterous wife over to her desire. He has set her aside temporarily. See the book of Hosea. The church, the body of Christ is referred to as the "bride"? Why the difference. What is the significance in that? It has to mean something. If we were all to become "spiritual Israel" as SDA say then why would we not be called the "wife" also? Why are we the "bride" of Christ? Does this mean that we are dealt with separately from the "wife"? An honest reading of Galatians (read with the veil removed) places these misinterpretations of Romans 14 and Col 2 back in context." Allow me to humbly contribute by saying that I believe that what you say is exactly what Paul meant in Romans chapeter 7 specially in the first 6 verses. We should stop "JUDAIZING CHRISTIANITY" and begin to "CHRISTIANIZE THE WORLD". That's what Paul did. In both counts! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Nate |
Doug222, Thanks for the tip. I will get Grace Awakening and read it! Coleen, thanks for the welcome! I read your story in the stories section. Both my wife and I were in tears as we so identified with your story. God bless, In Christ, Nate | ||
| Darrell |
Kelly wrote a week or so ago: "I'm confused, the Adventist say that those verse should be read to say "Let no one judge you.....but the body of Christ" meaning that the church should be our standard on non-debatable things . . ." A while back Ken, who sometimes visits the FAF Forum, brought up this view of Col 2:16,17. Up until that time I had never heard this view, and found it suprising that Adventists would believe this. The conclusion is based on the missing verb in the phrase, "These are shadows, but the body (is) of Christ." So it is assumed that the phrase "body of Christ" is connected with "Let no one judge you . . . but" rather than with "these are shadows, but . . .". I don't have my notes with me, but at the time Ken mentioned this I searched through some of Paul's writings and found several cases where verbs are left out in the original Greek, but where the meaning obviously includes the verb. Perhaps someone who has studied Greek can shed more light on this, but it appears to me that it was common in New Testement times to leave out verbs which were understood in the context. I believe this is one of those cases. It makes much more sense to say that Paul is contrasting the body, or substance, of Christ with its shadow than to say that only the body of Christ, meaning the church, is allowed to judge with regard to "Sabbaths, new moons, and festivals". The latter interpretation, if it were sound exegesis, would be good support for the Roman Catholic position that the church has a right to establish binding traditions, but this position is not consistant with protestant thinking. Also, some Adventists have tried to argue that the usage of the word "sabbaths" rather than "sabbath" implies that the festival sabbaths are in view here rather than the weekly sabbath. I searched out every case where the exact same word and spelling for sabbaths is used in the Greek New Testement and found that in every other case the word is obviously being used for the weekly sabbath, for example to say that Jesus did such and such on some particular sabbath day. So the meaning is clear, the weekly sabbath is a shadow of Christ, who is the substance. | ||
| Lori |
Read these comments on Colossians 2:16,17 that are located at the Grace Notes website: http://kaleidoscope.bga.com/~wdoud/colossians/col021.html Lori | ||
| Nate |
Another interesting aside. SDA's are quick to make a distinction between the ceremonial and the Moral Law. (they say 10 Commandments are the moral law and therefore not temporary.) Therefore, they say that The Sabbath refered to in Col. 2:16+17 must be the ceremonial law. It must refer to the ceremonial Sabbaths. But when you look at Jesus statements on the Sabbath in Luke 6:3-5, He compares David's right to break the "Ceremonial" law regarding the eating of the showbread. Because of his anointing as future king of Israel, he could override the ceremonial law. David was not allowed to override the moral law however. When he had the affair with Bathsheba, he came under God's judgement. Jesus compares this override of the showbread as a reason for Him to override Sabbath regulations if necessary. If David could eat showbread, Jesus could break Sabbath regulations. Next in Luke 6, we find that the priests in the temple are exempt from Sabath keeping because of their ministry... Are the priests exempt from the Moral laws of honesty, faithfulness, etc? of course not. In John 7:22 Jesus points out that Circumcision is carried out on the Sabbath. It has precedence over the Sabbath... Circumcision is a part of the ceremonial system. In all three cases, Jesus compared Sabbath with the ceremonial system that was a shadow of things to come. In each case Jesus shows how the Sabbath is NOT one of the irrefutabel moral laws, but is instead A SHADOW like the rest of the ceremonial system. In fact, the other ceremonies like circumcision are more important because they trump the Sabbath if there comes a conflict between the two. this is a crucial point. Adventists are so busy trying to make a case for Jesus being Lord of the Sabbath (Luke 6, Mark2, Matt 12) therefore the Lord's day must be Sabbath (according to their theology),that they miss the clear implications of the text. Jesus is saying, "The Sabbath is NOT the above-all, end- all issue you have made it out to be. It is overridden by the other ceremonies. Surely the Son of Man, the point of the whole ceremonial system, the One to whom all these shadows pointed, is over the Sabbath.. or Lord of the Sabbath!" With this in mind, Paul is right in line with the teachings of Jesus re: the whole system of types and shadows that pointed forward to Jesus.These things, including the weekly Sabbath, were only "shadows of the things to come, the substance is Christ." Hope this is helpful! God bless, In Christ, Nate | ||
| Sherry2 |
Thanks Nate. It was helpful to me. I didn't think about the priests being exempt on breaking the Sabbath. That is a good point. The moral v the ceremonial. For Sabbath, the thing that I came to realize was that in bringing the gospel to others is that Paul, Jesus, and others NT labored in that field every day, and it is my field as well - looking at all I do to honor God, not just one day out of 7 but 7 out of 7. I came to realize that everyone of the laws to do with morality were applicable 24 hours a day 7 days a week, 365 days a year. That is where the Law of Love sums up all things. And the new Sabbath (which is resting from my own spiritual works for Salvation and resting in Christ) is so much better then the weekly Sabbath because it is also 24/7/365 in my heart. Jesus my blessed Sabbath rest! It is so neat to have the emphasis so change for me, not realizing that Sabbath the day really was an idol that overshadowed Jesus himself as an SDA to have this new freedom in Christ, and to know that my Sabbath rest is forever in Him - every day! 7 day Jesus. :) | ||
| Dennis |
Nate, Your posts are right on the mark. I never cease to be amazed at what the Bible really says; especially, without wearing my old Adventist glasses. I too struggled and imagined that I could reform Adventism in some way. For example, the mental processes of the Pharisees were blocked by certain rigidly-held beliefs: (1) They were only true remnant (2) They alone had the truth (3) They were the only ones upon whom God bestowed His supreme regard (4) When the Sanhedrin met, it was the highest authority on earth (5) God would do nothing significant outside their camp (6) Salvation was through being Jewish(i.e., observing foods laws, Sabbaths, festivals, tithing codes, etc.) (7) Traditions could be even more important than Scripture, and (8) All who wanted to saved would eventually have to join their ranks. Unfortunately, most of the Jews couldn't bring themselves to accept Christ and His Gospel. Instead they said, "We will not have this man to reign over us," and "We have no king but Caesar." They proceeded to sew up the torn veil in the temple, and they are still looking for a Messiah who has already come and gone. Furthermore, He is about to come again. Never in its 150+year history has the Seventh-day Adventist denomination championed the Gospel of Jesus Christ. William Miller's interest was solely in deciphering the prophecies, particularly Daniel and Revelation; he hardly mentioned Christ and His proffered salvation. They did not accept the doctrine of the Trinity until the mid 1890s. Too many Adventists believe in perfectionism, the idea that we can, and must, develop perfect characters prior to the time of Christ's return (see COL, p. 69). This is one of the most pernicious of all heresies, and it has caused many to give up on God altogether. Others have been led to put up a facade of holiness that in their heart they know is not true. We are all merely sinners saved by grace, and we will be until Christ changes us in the "twinkling of an eye" at His coming. Even among Adventists knowledgeable about the aforementioned problems, many feel the need to stay by and work for reform. Remember the conditions today are amazingly parallel to what occurred in the time of Christ among the Jews. Jesus spent three and a half years trying to reform Israel, and failed. He finally proclaimed, "Behold, your house is left to you desolate," and moved on. When Jesus Himself failed, are mere men today going to succeed? I doubt it. More than 150 years of Adventist history haven't even produced a clear Gospel. Jesus said that new wine must be put into new wineskins. In His amazing grace, Dennis J. Fischer E-mail: fischerdj@msn.com | ||
| Nate |
Sherry and Dennis, The joy of being in Christ's rest every day us so fantastic. The freedom from Judaistic thinking is so liberating. I agree Sherry, that when Sabbath is understood in Christ as a daily experience, the whole life becomes restful. Interestingly this was happening for me before I found out the theology behind it. I remember thinking that I was becoming more and more attentive to my wife and kids needs, I was becoming lese and less comfortable with selfish or lustful thinking, and I was more aware of little ways that I was being dishonest. At the same time, I was less and less concerned about the time the sun went down, or what could and could not be done on the Sabbath. The Holy Spirit was setting me free before I even knew it! Dennis, What a great point! The Jews vs Adventists. They are truly a judaizing system. Note Gal 4:17. Sounds like a description of SDAs! Thanks for the insight! God bless, In Christ, Nate | ||
| Doug222 |
Dennis, I agree with you 100%--especially about the Bible taking on nw meaning when you take off the Adventist glasses. The passage in COL that you quoted goes on to say, "It is the priviledge of every Christian not only to look for, but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." It then goes on to cite 2 Peter 3:12. Amazingly, 2 Peter 3:12 says nothing about hastening the Lord's return. It says, "Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, ..." In the margin of my Bible, it says, "looking for and earnestly desiring." Where in there does it say that our actions are a determining factor in Christ's return? That's some more of the "works heresy." In the "fullness of time" God sent his Son, made of a woman into this world, and in the "fullness of time" Jesus will return. Thanks for sharing. In His Grace, Doug | ||
| Lori |
Did any of you watch the "Jesus" documentary that was on Discovery Channel a couple of months ago? One thing that struck me about it was "what" the Jews should have done when Christ "arrived"? They should have immediately abandoned the temple and followed Him. They should have immediately dropped all of the ritual and joined Him, celebrated Him, worshipped Him. But they didn't! They wouldn't accept Him and so they stayed back in the "shadows". They stayed with the temple and shunned Salvation. It's not any different than what ALL religions do today. People cling to religion and in doing so many of them end up rejecting the very thing they think they have embraced--Christ. | ||
| Doug222 |
I know some of you receive the Adventist Review still. Has anyone read the May issue. The feature article is entitled, "The Sabbath: A Park in Time." The author uses a park in the midst of a busy city as a metaphor for the Sabbath. Then he makes the following statement, "God needs a champion o the Sabbath, just as Memphis needed a champion of Overton Park. And he has given that role to Seventh-Day Adventists. There are other Sabbatarian groups that teach the Sabbath commandment, and we should encourage them. But the only group with the social and geographical reach to be effective in defending God's park in time is the Seventh Day Adventist Church..... just as healthy cities need parks, so the Christian life is immeasurably enriched by God's park in time. And God has called Adventists to be stewards of the park." It never ceases to amaze me the things that the official publication of the SDA Church will publish--not just as an obscure article, but the feature article. If (and that is a big if) God has called Adventists to be stewards of the Sabbath, then they become the managers of it and are responsible for maintaining its sanctity. In order to do that, they would of necessity have to establish some guidelines or rules (since the Bible is fairly silent) on exactly how it should be observed. Interestingly enough, the article is fairly liberal as far as Adventist theology goes. Just thought I would share this with the forum and see if others saw the same thing I did. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Doug222 |
I must be a prophet! I just finished reading the second article in the same issue, entitled "Keeping it Holy: Is Sabbath Observance Still Relevant in the Modern World?" It is written by Angel Rodriguez. Among other things, he says, "each church member should be reminded of the great privilege we have to keep the Sabbath holy and should be instructed on what scripture says about how to keep it holy." Earlier in the article Rodriguez had already acknowledged that "the Bible gives us little specific information on how to observe the Sabbath, making it necessary for each one to make some personal decisions." Therefore, after his assertion that members should be instructed on what scripture says about keeping it holy, Rodriguez insers a footnote that says, "You can also find useful information in the writings of Ellen G. White on this topic." So there you have it, as stewards of the Sabbath, the Pharisees (I mean Adventists) have added some extrabiblical guidance. Doesn't Jesus mention something about teaching for doctrine the commandments of men? Anyway, I know we try to avoid bashing Adventists on this site, but I couldn't resist sharing. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Nate |
Doug222, I did read that issue. The article by Rodriguez is truly the legalism of old school Adventism to the T. Sometimes I think the SDA church is making some small steps toward a more New Covenant approach to their theology, but then there are articles like that one. I personally have no issue with Adventists who chose to have a Sabbath "park" experience like the first article discussed. But to make it a binding thing with a code of ethical behavior attached to it is so contrary to the New Covenant teaching on the Sabbath (or any day for that matter.) The second article was steeped in Old Covenant thinking, and was clearly relying on EGW. Right now I am feeling rather angry. The reason is I just re-read Canright's book about EGW. The first time I read it was when I first started some of the study into Adventist theological issues. So I was in shock mostly. What is more, I was not ready to accept that she was really such a bad old gal. I figured she made a few mistakes, but for the most part was a pretty good person with a gift that needed some limits , but was fairly legit. But this time I read it and the full impact hit me. I felt anger and hurt more this time. I felt mislead and taken advantage of by her and the leaders of her day and ours. I guess this is one of the withdrawl symptoms. This is literally a grief process, or the withdrawl symptoms that an addict goes through. The denial, the depression, the anger, the guilt. It is all there from one time to another. I guess I can honestly say, Hi, I'm Nate, and I am a recovering Adventist! Makes me feel healthier just saying that! God bless, In Christ, Nate | ||
| Violet |
Hi Nate I'm Violet and I am a recovering Adventist. The Sabbath had become a god to the Adventist. (yes, I know I am generalizing and being judgmental) But anytime you spend more time talking about the sabbath than Jesus then it has become a god. The Adventist, in my opinion, are trying to control lives. How and when people do things and spend their money. The more I read the sicker I become to my stomach of the mind games they play with people. The concept of the sabbath is really nice, a whole day devoted to family and worship but that had been so distorted that it is like when you try and exist on chocolate cake. It gets sickening after a while. |
