| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Dear Carol, That scripture verse you quoted is my moms favorite, #1 quoted verse in the entire Bible by her. Also, of numerous relatives of mine. Last time it came up that I call my church home now St. Johns Lutheran I had several dear, loved ones oF mine pull that verse on me. I replied, "Of course it was His custom. He was JeWiSh. I'm not Jewish (actually I probably am but our geaniallagy research is ify on this) anyway, I'm not Jewish, I'm Christian and in Christ we have a greater law, the law of His forgvenessd and the law of grace. Well, I again learned Jesus kept the Sabbath as was his custom and He is our example and we are to strive to be as perfect as he was in every way and this includes keeping the Sabbath. They also use this as an arguement that Jesus didn't eat the unclean meats so it is wrong and that enda that conversation. Then I was asaked if when "the time of trouble" comes will I now that I'm a "Sunday-keeper" (notice not that I am now a Christian) if I will join in perscuting them. At that point I knew I was in more then I could handle and I excused myself and came home (next door). There's a text in Revelations that says the righteous in Christ bwill have the eal of God's pertection during those last day events. Do the SDA's even accept that text? If so, then what's with their great fear? In fact, I can't ever recall a SDA referring to that text and it is a text of great comfort for Christians. | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Carol, You are so right about custom vs. keeping. The Greek word eqo is like saying, ìI avoid stepping on cracks in the sidewalk, as is my custom(eqo).î That DOES NOT say anything about my beliefs. While some may do that because they have a superstition about harming their motherís spinal cord, I could just as well think that is silly. Yet, I walk that way because it is fun, it occupies my mind, and it promotes agility. Or, I could do it because, although I donít have any such superstition, my parents do and I wish to please my parents by obeying what they wish while I am under their supervision. | ||
| Thomas1 (Thomas1) |
I am always amused when I hear that we should do as "Jesus did" when it comes to Sabbath veneration. Yet, they overlook a couple of things. First, Jesus also perticipated in the other Jewish holy days and feasts. Are we to do as "Jesus did" with them, as well? Jesus perticipated in a worship that dwelt around the sacrifice of animals, (that was the law at the time, right?) Are we to do as Jesus did? Jesus was circumcised on the eighth day, with sacrifice as required, are we to do as Jesus did? Jesus was a Jew, born into the line of David. Must we be as Jesus was? After the resurection, find a single reference to Jesus doing any of these things. When did he meet with His deciples in the upper room? The Bible says on the evening of the resurection. What day was that? Then again one week later as they were gathered. What day would "one week later" have fallen on? What does Paul say about the importance of worshiping the Seventh day (for make no mistake, that IS what they are doing)? In both Romans and Colosians, he makes it a matter of concience, not law, on which day you worship. He even goes so far as to list it the same as the other Jewish "Feasts, and new moom festivals". If you insist that one is still a matter of law, then they ALL must be a matter of law. Unfortunately this is just one more thing that Satan uses to take our eyes off of Jesus. We become so bogged down in proving our exclusiive "proof" doctrines that we loose track of what we are supposed to be doing. That is telling the world about HIM and leading them to HIM, for it is only through faith in HIM that we are saved. In HIS Grace! <>< Thomas | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Thomas, I say Amen and Amen. That is exactly what I have felt for 4 years since my son-in-law was duped into SDA,that it takes the focus off Jesus. What better way for the devil to do his work. John 4:23 tells us when the true worshippers will worship and then in Matthew 28:17 it actually happened; And when they saw him they fell down and worshipped Him,and then after it happened a very interesting statement, but some doubted. I would also add that this was all orchestrated by Jesus himself when in Matthew 26:32 He tells them to meet him at Galilee after He is raised and upon my understanding that would be in spirit. Why can we not take the instruction of Jesus since he was given all authority Matthew 28:18 and in Matthew 17:5 God Himself says to Peter, James and John "This is My Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased LISTEN TO HIM" Why must some who "doubt" go to some obscure passages to try and make scripture say what they want it to say. May God and only God give us wisdom to understand the scripture. Leave Ellen White alone. For the sake of beleivers, Carol | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Wow, Carol and Thomas, thank you for your clear statements of truth! You're so right about Adventism removing our focus from Jesus. There is a person who has been a member of our Friday study group for a couple of years. He became a Christian in his teens and was baptized by a Baptist minister. A few years later he was proselytized by an Adventist and was one for 15 years. He says now that during those 15 years he lost his joy in the Lord, and his joy and emotion now when he declares his security in Jesus is impacting. It is interesting to note, as Thomas pointed out, that Adventists do not point to Jesus' activities AFTER the resurrection when they say to imitate Him. I suspect the reason is that to Adventists, the cross is more or less an anomaly, not a history-changing moment. While they SAY the cross defeated Satan and sin, they also say nothing is settled until the second coming. If we're still waiting for the final verdict on sin and salvation, then the cross really didn't do anything significant that we can experience now. Since in the Adventist mind the law is equally as important as Jesus, then Jesus's behavior after the resurrection would certainly hold no special significance for them. How interesting. Thank you, Thomas! Praising God for Jesus and for security, Colleen | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Greetings all, I am taking an informal survey, and solicit your input. How much ethnic diversity is there in the church you attend? How important is this issue to you in choosing a church family? Thanks. Doug | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Very very important to me and one thing I didn't like about the church we were in before we moved. Our church now has lots of diversity and lots of mixed couples and children and I love that. There are people in jeans and tennis shoes and people very dressed up, poor people, rich people, all one big happy family! One of the music directors said today he has been all over the US, traveled for 6 years with his music and there was no church like ours anywhere so ya'll come down here to TN or watch us on TV Sunday 8 am on TBN.  | ||
| Gene (Gene) |
Quite diverse in ages, but not as racially diverse as it could be. The minorities in my area are Mexicans and Russians, and both groups isolate themselves in their own churches. As far as selecting a church, the only criteria I had was that anything taught had to be accurate. Kind of an SDA backlash, I suppose. I sought a church, not a social club. | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Doug, there isn't alot of racial diversity, but some, in our church at this time. Had more in the past, but people come and go. I've been there for almost 7 years now, so I know the members well, and I can tell you it is a color blind bunch of folks. (For instance, a friends daughter came to her mom one day in asked with shock, "mom! Did you realize mister Mac is black?" Mac has been attending church since a week before we started, and his skin color is pretty obvious!) Why we don't have a better racial mix is a mystery to us. Might have something to do with the area in which we live (southeast Alabama, smaller city, and blacks in the area are very much accustomed to NOT being welcome in just any church in town, sad to say.) I'm sure the Lord has some sort of plan for this right now and believe it will change in his timing. We do desire a greater diversity, and during our prayer meetings we have been praying about this. At any rate, as I'm thinking about it, because of what I know about our church, I would say you would be making a mistake to automatically assume that because there isn't a racial diversity in a church you visit, for instance, that the church is prejudiced. Could just be a phase the church is in. From what I have observed over the past 7 years, AND as I was growing up in a Southern Baptist congregation, there is a remarkable flux in church membership. With any church you have a core of maybe 30% of the members who are actually committed for the long haul. Another probably 30% show up on Sunday morning and that's pretty much it. The other 30% are just visiting. And part of that number are those who just come and go constantly from churches. They stay until the Lord challenges something in them, then decided that there was something "wrong" with that church and then move on to the next one. Thinking back on when we were looking, I believe I was hoping for a bigger mix of races. But now I guess I realize that it is the attitude of the people that was more important to me all along. We have a fairly good mix of ages right now. The one we are praying for at present is more 20something singles. In the past we haven't had a huge number of elderly members....our music afterall is pretty radical, so I guess that hasn't surprised me. But those numbers have been growing over the past year. And the older members are some of the most vocal about how much they love the music! ha Proof that you just can't fit people into neat categories, I guess. Sabra, I know you've said before, but where are you in TN? | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
While we have quite a few ethnic groups represented in our church, including many different Asians such as Filippino and Thai, African-American, Hispanic (both Mexican and South American), and European, they are minorities. In our area, we have a very large percentage of Hispanic people. Most of them, however, seem to prefer meeting in churches where they can speak Spanish. In fact, our church is actively working on developing a sister congregation in a different part of the city which will be specifically Hispanic. We have a wonderful young pastor from Cuba at our church who runs an after school program which attracts large numbers of lower-income kids, many of whom are Hispanic. This pastor is eager to establish a Spanish-speaking church near Micah House, the place where they run the after school programs, and the church is working to help make this dream a reality. We do have a great diversity of ages, however. Probably because Redlands is a university town and is also next door to Loma Linda, we do have a large number of teachers and medical professionals at our church. But that's mostly a matter of the local demographics. There are also many people from widely diverse backgrounds. I agree with Gene and Lydell; the most important things are that the truth is taught from the Bible alone, and that the church is open to the Holy Spirit's leading and is a healthy, growing church. Geography and demographics can hugely affect the ethnic components of a church. Ethnicity doesn't necessarily define a church's health. Colleen | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
OK Doug, if this is a survey I guess I'd better respond too! My church is extremely NON-diverse. That's one thing that bothered me at first, and the reason is this. There have been times I wanted to invite someone to church with me, but did not because I was afraid they would be uncomfortable. Up until a few months ago I had met maybe one Asian woman, and a woman from Brazil. However, I have noticed lately we have had a few black families attending. We have a mixed couple in our cell group now, and they have been warmly accepted into the group, and are very loved. Maybe it is catching on, as just yesterday I saw a new minority family which brings us to probably four or five minority families now. Hope everyone is well! And Sabra, let us all know when your church has a special seminar or something of interest. Maybe we southeasterners can have a little formers gathering in the Chattanooga area. (Janet? Lydell? I know there are others too!) Also, there is an "Ichthus Festival" April 24-27 in Wilmore Kentucky with youth from around the country, bands, etc., where my pastor will be one of the speakers. I know it's for youth, but I like to crash their things, they're usually a lot of fun and a spiritual blessing. Janet, where is Wilmore? One more thing, it's real late notice, but Lydell I know you're involved with the youth and there may be others closer to the Atlanta area interested, Mac Powell, the lead singer for "Third Day" and an awesome Christian, is a member at my church. He will be at the North Metro Church on Barrett Parkway this Friday evening at 6:30. It's for youth, and costs $13, but it gets you a t-shirt, pizza, and Krispy Kreme doughnuts! Better get to work now, love and prayers to all. Carol #2 | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
Carol 2,I am from Dayton TN,do you know where that is?It is just north of Chattanooga,actually I grew up in Chatt.I would LOVE to have a former sda get-together!!Do you know of any around here?I don't,but I sure would like to meet some 'formers'.WOW I didn't know anyone on this forem was anywhere near me!! I am so glad I got on this morning!! Angie | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Hi Angie! I'm actually in the Atlanta area, but know well where Dayton is. Sabra is part of a very large, Spirit-filled church in the Chattanooga area, and it sounds like it might be a church that would offer special seminars and conferences. Otherwise, I know there are good Christian conferences in the Atlanta area, Birmingham, Nashville, Gatlinburg, etc., and as there are a number of us formers in the southeast, I'd love to all meet at something like that. Anyone interested please keep a lookout for something interesting, and let us all know. I'll do the same. Love and prayers to all, Carol #2 | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Lyndell, Thanks for mentioning the fact that just because the church you visit doesn't have blacks doesn't mean that the church is prejudiced. I too am from the South and since the black community has their own churches that they attend, they naturally attend worship services with their own families. My church does have a bus ministry and we do have many young children that come from various ethnic backgrounds. As far as my personal opinion goes, I agree with others here discussing this matter that any church that we are thinking about becoming a part of should, above everything else, be preaching the gospel and if that gospel is preached in the spirit of love which does in fact preach that God so loved the WORLD....there won't be any problem. Changing the subject, I thought that I would place part of my devotional here for everyone. The devotional stated that not all misfortunes are the result of sin, and that not all wealth and good health are necessarily a blessing from God. Consider the rich young ruler who chose to keep his wealth but it kept him from denying self and becoming a follower of Jesus. Victory over our present-day Canaanite giants ñ the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride in oneís lifestyle (I John 2:16) ñ is achieved, not because of our abilities but because of our commitment to do the will of God. Overcoming power is found in cooperating with the Spirit of Christ, who dwells within us. As the apostle Paul revealed: I am able to do all things through Him who strengthens me (Philippians 4:13). Christ Revealed: As the One from whom our blessings come (Deuteronomy 28:1-2). Blessed be the God . . . who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing . . . in Christ (Ephesians 1:3). Have a great day everyone. Janice | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Carol, Those Krispy Doughnuts should bring them in by the truckloads, huh? I love those things, and you can tell it by looking at me, ha, ha. Janice | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Thanks to all that have responded. I am still interested in other's thoughts/experiences on this issue. The reason why I asked is that I have attended a wonderful non-denominational church for the past three years. Each Sunday, a total of approximately 3,000 people attend four different services. However, there is almost zero diversity. I'd say that on any given week, there might be 20-25 non-whites--most of those are interracial couples. This is in a city that tauts its diversity. I agree with Gene, Lydell, and Colleen wholeheartedly that the most important thing is what the church teaches, which is why I attend there. That is something I will not compromise on. However, I am increasingly disturbed that this wonderful message is only reaching one segment of the population. Shouldn't we be concerned about that? It almost seems hypocritical. Its been said that 11:00 a.m. on Sunday morning is the most segregated hour in America, and that is obviously true (although I didn't think this was so much true in more "contemporary" congregations). I can almost understand that in those churches that preach "dead orthodoxy" or "empty frenzy," but I have difficulty accepting it in a Spirit-filled church that preaches the undiluted Gospel. By its very nature, isn't the message universal? Weren't we commissioned to preach it to every nation, kindred, and tongue? When I see this disturbing phenomenon, it causes me to question the authenticity of the message. Because of our experience in Adventism, I think that we are all especially sensitive to deception in its many forms. It is possible to say and do all the right things. Its even possible, with professional speakers and skilled musicians, to create a wonderful "worship experience." But Jesus himself said that we are known by our fruits. If the message allows us (I use "us" in the universal sense) to feel comfortable living in our sealed houses, isolated from our brothers isn't there a problem? Please understand that I am not suggesting that because there is no racial diversity in a church that it must be prejudiced. Far from it. However, I think that if the church is a microcosm of the Kingdom of God, we have to wonder what message (intentionally or unintentionaly) are we projecting? Allow me to give an example. Recently, my church started a new series entitled, "Grace [the name of the church] in the Hood." The essence of the message is taking the Gospel to the streets of our neighborhoods. The brochure they created for the series has five pictures on the cover. There is a picture of two "traditional" white famlies talking across a white picket fence in their yards; an American Indian man waiting to be served at a soup kitchen; a black father and son who are posing with a basketball; a homeless black guy with a shopping cart; and a "traditional" white family sitting on a beach. Do you see the subtle message there? In all fairness, the church does recognize the problem. About a year and a half ago, one of the senior pastor's gave a "state of the church" address where he promised that within a year, there would be a person of color on the staff. Its eighteen months later, and the only person of color is the church janitor. Because of the lack of diversity (more specifically, because of the apparent apathy about the issue), I have seriously contemplated looking for a new Church home--one that still preaches the pure Gospel, but is a little more culturally mixed. Colleen, I think your church's sensitivity to this issue is admirable. It appears that your pastor (or others in the congregation) have made a conscious effort to "reach out." You and I agree on quite a bit, but I would have to disagree with your statement that ethnicity is not necessarily important as long as a church teaches truth and is open to the Spirit's leading (my paraphrase). I just have a hard time accepting that the Spirit would lead toward segregation. Carol 2, I think you have hit the nail on the head. How many people never get an opportunity to hear the true Gospel, because they do not feel comfortable in our fellowships? I hope I haven't offended anyone by the things that I have said. As you can see, this is an issue that I am somewhat passionate about. I would welcome other thoughts or point of views. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
I agree with you that the Spirit will not lead toward segregation. But Doug, the question is, how do you go about getting the minorities in your church congregation? You can't force them to come or to stay. All you can do is make sure the atmosphere is one where everyone is welcome and be about the business of encouraging the members to invite everyone they know. Then you see what the Lord does with it. Unless you can think of another way? From our time spent as the only white family in a black congregation, I can understand how difficult it is for people to break out of the norm of their society and become the first black or latino family in a congregation. We had a black woman attending the church for quite some time. She absolutely loved it there. But she was trying to get her unsaved family members to come to church with her and they flatly refused to go to a mostly white congregation. And Doug, the idea of the pictures on the brochure really irritate me, too. That sounds suspiciously like there is an undercurrent of prejudicial attitudes in the church. Did you point it out to the pastor? I'd be real curious what his response was. | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
P.S. Can somebody tell me the meaning of "Ichthus." I mentioned it in my post above, and meant to ask the meaning there. Didn't want to ask at my church because they think I'm smart there. You guys don't really know who I am! | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I agree about that brochure, Doug. Who produced it? I further agree that the Spirit will not lead toward segregation. Just from having transitioned out of Adventism into an evangelical Christian church, however, I have a new, tiny bit of understanding about how much humans have a drive to be with those who understand their cultural experience. I remember having discussions with Richard, as we were leaving, about wishing we could find a church of "formers" who would understand each other's experiences. In fact, that desire is strong among many formers, especially in the early stages of leaving. Dale Ratzlaff has been approached more than once about forming some sort of organization that would help plant "former Adventist" churches. In general, however, most pastors who have left Adventism agree that formers need to integrate with others who do not share their Adventist background. In the case of people who haven't necessarily experienced spiritual abuse but who do have subtle cultural differences, the desire to worship with those who share their experiences is probably normal. That doesn't mean it should necessarily be normative, but I don't think it's a reflection on the gospel or the theology being preached necessarily. It could be, of course, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. The goal, I believe, is to become so identified with Jesus that the cultural millieu shouldn't be an issue. That, I believe, is what Paul was talking about when he said he was all things to all people. Still, even in the early church, the converted Jews tended to worship together, and the converted Gentiles tended to stick together. Witness the epistles to the Gentile churches Paul wrote. He was, for the most part, writing to Gentiles. The Jewish believers were not generally worshiping with them. Of course, there weren't necessarily many Jews where the first Gentile churches met, but there was some overlap. Remember when Paul rebuked Peter for not eating with Gentiles when he was in the presence of Jews? I agree that integration is the goal given the fact that in Christ there's no Jew nor Greek, male nor female. But I also believe that people's cultural backgrounds have powerful influences on them quite apart from the Holy Spirit. After all, in spite of the fact that I love our church and feel enfolded and completely at home, I still find a certain deep understanding when I study and talk with formers that is different and satisfying in ways that are absent when I'm with Christians who don't have experience with my background. And that's not because those Christians are not interested; it's just a result of not sharing certain experiences. Colleen | ||
| Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore) |
Gee Doug, As par for course, I see that there were no cripples on the brochure. See, we too, are pretty much excluded or feel out of place. This feeling comes ESPECIALLY when other Christians make it a point of how much of an inconvenience it is for them to have to pick you up, take you home, help you in and out of the car and most of all........BE SEEN WITH YOU! Believe me, I'm speaking from experience on this end of your monitor. So while you all talk of skin color, I'll address physical handicaps that aren't norm and do distract others. Do I feel at home in ANY church?......absolutely not. Now, if I had a broken leg or arm,,,you know, the norm in physical problems, then I'd feel right at home. But then, we don't all fit that criteria now do we. Just my 2 cents worth. And unless you are a cripple, don't try to tell me anything that you haven't experienced. Denise Gilmore |
