| Author | Message | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
I attended a funeral for an Adventist today. He was an elderly gentleman who had been an Adventist for about fifteen years. In his later years, he was a double dipper--attending the SDA Church on Sabbath and a Baptist Church on Sunday. Because he was a fairly quiet man, I am not sure why he was attending both churhes. Naturally, there were many people from the other church that he had been attending in attendance. Anyway, at the funeral there were several topics/statements that came up during the message that just seemed out of place: - Who Michael the Archangel is - The fact that he was "more than a Christian, because he had embraced the commandments, including the Sabbath. - The fact that he had been attending another "Bible believing" church (that statement just seemed a little patronizing) - The fact that one day we would all celebrate from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another with this gentlemen - The fact that there was no such thing as a secret rapture (this was presented from the context that a bumper sticker had been seen that said that in the case of rapture, the vehicle would be unoccupied. The comment was met with snickering by the Adventists who were in attendance) - The fact that the dead don't know anything and that this is a transition stage for the deceased I could go on, but I think you get the point. Even more odd was the fact that there was no presentation of gospel given, other than that Jesus is coming soon, and that we must all be prepared to give an account. I did not leave the service with any sense of hope or comfort, and I am sure that the bereaved family members (or other attendees) did not either. After the service, several people came up to speak to me, but it felt very forced, and I just got the sense that people were looking at me with pity--as one who used to be a part of the elite ranks, but was foolish enough to relinquish it. Everytime I get the opportunity to return to an Adventist function, I realize more and more how little hope is offered there. I am glad to be free, but feel sorry for those who are still stuck. Anyway, Just thought I would share. | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Thanks for sharing. I think you are very brave for going. I am considering going to a frined's sons graduation party they are still in the church we do not talk about the church but there will be those others there who like you siad believe I am going to Hell. I have been going back and forth if I want to put myself in that position. Anyone have any comments. Terryk | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Yes, Doug, thanks for sharing. I have found that at many Christian funerals the gospel is presented in such a beautiful way, and the comfort and hope that is given to the family, and everyone in attendance actually, is just awesome. Something you don't ordinarily see at an SDA church. On a side note, I knew in my old church a few people that were attending two churches, Sabbath & Sunday, and the message I got was they were either better "fed" or "accepted" at the Sunday church, but still attended Saturday because of course they have to keep the Sabbath. Also, I know what you mean about your interactions with SDAs, I have a group of close SDA friends who, since my leaving the church, have tried to make a point to show me that nothing has changed in our relationship, and I likewise have been trying very hard to make that same point. But I find the more I'm around them the harder it is and the more uncomfortable I am with the entire SDA mindset. My husband (Baptist) used to comment when I was active SDA that within the SDA circles there is a unique "language" (and not just verbal.) I didn't believe it, but now it's all I hear. When I'm around SDAs, they seem to be so focused on their own world. Normal everyday occurrences, if involving the SDA church or a member, are suddenly of such importance. It's just so strange, you often feel like an outsider when you're with them. Am I making any sense....???? My mind is just wandering (I know this is different that what you were saying actually, but it got me thinking about my SDA relationships.) Terry, I went to an SDA graduation last spring, the first time I'd been in the church since I'd left it the previous September. It was scary, but surprisingly nobody commented on my "apostacy." I was surprised however by some people who I had known fairly well that sat in the same row, actually right next to us, and didn't even speak. I've run into church members in public places too, and nobody ever says a word. I don't know if they don't know (which is hard to believe because I'd been the church secretary for quite a few years and quit my job just before leaving.) I think they just don't know what to say. And I think a lot of them, when it comes right down to it, don't really want to get into a debate about why I left because I think most of them know deep down that they cannot intelligently defend their beliefs. They believe with all their heart, but if challenged wouldn't have a clue why or where their specific beliefs are found in the Bible. I know that's how I was! Sorry for rambling today everyone. Hope all are safe from the storms in the Midwest and Southeast. Love and prayers to all, Carol P.S. Sabra - I'm so sorry about your father-in-law. Let his family know we are praying for all of you. Remember how you prayed with him that day when I last saw you? We know he is safe in the arms of Jesus now!!! | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Carol, I definitely agree with the fact that Adventists feel uncomfortable and don't know what to say when around us "formers." I think it comes from the underlying belief that we have apostasized and therefore our salvation is in jeopardy. They much to polite to come out and say that directly. Its funny, but at least three or four people asked me, "so how are you really doing?" This was more than just the typical cultural greeting that demands a "fine" response. I think (and I admit that this is my interpretation) that they believe that since I have departed the faith, that it is only a matter of time before all manner of calamities come my way. Anyway, it presents an akward situation--although it is more akward for them than it is for me. I think when I ran into Adventists right after I first left the church, I felt the need to say something clever that would signal to them that my decision to leave was right. I no longer feel that need. As far as the Gospel is concerned, just yesterday morning (before the funeral) something dawned on me. I never learned (or really even heard) how to give a gospel presentation until after I left the church. Everything was always focused around the rightness of a certain set of beliefs compared to the wrongness of a different set of beliefs. Even at revivals, the pattern was to open the series with a presentation of the rightness of our view of prophecy and it culminated with persuasive messages about the rightness of our doctrinal beliefs. The climactic moment came with the message, "what church would Jesus attend?" Somewhere hidden in the early portion of the revival was a presentation of the gospel, but it was used as a neutralizer (to establish commong ground with our "new friends") and as a set up for the presentation on the law (and ultimately the Sabbath). So, why should it surprise me that there was no presentation of the Gospel at the funeral? It shouldn't. Okay, sorry. I am rambling. I guess the whole point of my posting in the first place was to show how doctrinally oriented even a funeral can be, and that they never miss the opportunity to "evangelize non-believers.' | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Doug, This is the same thing I told my son-in-law about the way things are presented. That is to say if you don't start with Jesus first then your efforts are in vain. Just like the math, you cannot attempt to learn to multiply unless you understand addition. You can memorize it but you can never go any father than what you memorize. And if perchance someone would teach you 2+2=5 then in what kind of mess would you be? The gospel must be Jesus death for the remission of our sins, His burial for change and His resurection for our eternal life. If it is something other than that ,such as the Sabbath, then someone needs to from the Bible alone show it to me and I can find NO one from this religion willing to do that. I only get from my son-in-law when asked when did Jesus command the Sabbath and I say I don't find it, he says are you sure? Confusion and that is not what my God says He is. Interesting that my reading thru the Bible in a year brought me to John 5:8-11 Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." 9At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked. The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat." 11 But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk Now according to Jeremiah 17 22 Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your forefathers. why did Jesus break the Sabbath? I ask this because many times they try to say it is the Pharisee's idea of what thelaw should be but here we see it was a command from God. Along with that could anyone who has been part of this religion tell me how you know what you are to do or not do on the Sabbath and how all things are supported by the Bible alone. Thanks for all your information Doug of which I have come to conclusions all on my own, just be observing what my son-in-law says and what he does not say and one thing I do not hear him say is how wonderful that Jesus died for his sins, of which I understand that he must now keep trying to keep that perfection that Jesus gave him, but what will they do with the fact we cannot give ourselves life, only God can do that thru the fact He resurreted His Son as a type for us. I do not hear him make any acknowledgments about the fact Jesus resurrection for our eternal life. I cannot believe its in him if I do not hear it. Just like I cannot believe a person knows how to do math if they must keep looking at the guide for the anweres. Forgive me also for rambling but so much needs to be clarified in my mind, Carol | ||
| Madelia (Madelia) |
As a "transitioning" former, I know what you mean about that "special" language SDAs speak!! I just cringe when someone greets me with "Happy Sabbath" I always respond with "Hello" or "good morning". One thing I've noticed at the SDA church I've attended in Minnesota is that the funeral service is never at the church, always at the funeral home? Is that a common thing or not? Yet they always serve a lunch or meal in the church fellowship hall. I just think it's pretty weird | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Hi Madelia - I don't know if I've "met" you yet. Welcome to our family!!! Hope to hear more from you. Carol #2 | ||
| Lydell (Lydell) |
Welcome Madelia. I think I would find myself wanting to respond to that greeting with, "happy freedom from the sabbath". They don't have funerals in the SDA church here in Alabama either. Now guys, you really didn't fully represent the greeting you get from SDA's. For me I have found it is a "...so...how are you doing?" And the inflection of the voice says clearly, "oh how SAD and PITIFUL you are" and you kind of get the impression that it is the same greeting they would use to someone who has a terminal disease. haha Anyone else had this same experience? I notice that when you tell them you are wonderful and having a great time with your church, they immediately! change the subject. Sabra, sorry to hear about the death in the family. I'm praying for you all. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Hmm, I have lived in several different places and have always known funerals to be held in the church. Maybe it is a southern thing. And yes Lydell, your version of the welcome is fairly accurate. Doug | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Madelia, welcome! I'm glad you found us! Most Adventist funerals I've been to have been at a church. Perhaps it is a southern thing!? I've also noticed the SDA greeting phenomenon. People are curious, but they don't want to hear about my life with Jesus or my church. Every now and then I meet someone I knew as a room mom when my boys were in grade school. They'll ask me (almost solicitously, it seems!) how the boys are doing. I sometimes get the feeling that they feel sorry or wistful regarding them. I also notice in a more pronounced way than I used to how competitive some of the moms of my kids' former schoomates are. It's REALLY IMPORTANT what school your kid's going to, what accomplishments they've had, what esoteric major they might be taking, etc. I find myself not really divulging much of anything except the basic facts. When I say something about the boys' involvmenent in ministry, I get sort-of blank looks and an "Oh, that's nice" sort of response. It's interesting how similar the reactions we get are considering the fairly significant differences in Adventist culture from Southern California to the Midwest and the South. | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Carol, I loved that math analogy! I often wondered what the SDA funeral was like too, so, thanks for sharing that sermonette, that was truly sad, it was so totally different from all of the funerals that I have had to attend this past year with my husband's family, we lost my brother-in-law Eddie to lung cancer last March 9, my father-in-law died of congestive heart failure on August 19, Mike also lost an aunt and an uncle last year and we attended the funeral of my Uncle Ed as well, all of them had strokes or heart failure, makes you wonder about the Bible verse that speaks of men's hearts failing them for fear, amen? Maybe stress would be a better translation of the word fear?, I am, however, so glad to report that in each of these funerals, a wonderful sermon that offered great peace and comfort was provided for all of those in attendance. My brother-in-law even requested, on his deathbed, that the salvation message be preached at his funeral. He truly wanted to see all of his friends and family in heaven and knew that it is often true that it would probably be the only time that some people would be sitting on a church pew. If it were possible, the two things that I would preach against everyday would be the "unconscious soul sleep nonsense" and the constant harping on "keeping Sabbath" and guess the third nonsense issue I would speak out against is that ridiculous "investigative judgment" garbage. How in the world could a person possible believe all of this stuff and find any joy and peace at all? Paul is constantly preaching about "Christ only and him crucified" as our source for peace and joy, so, I guess that is why it hurts so bad when I think of the way that my family was "suckered in" with this denomination's false gospel and turned away from the way they were raised to believe. They were taught better, and even the Bible speaks about how impossible it is to turn them back once they have heard the truth and turned their back on it. The Bible says it is practically "impossible", so, having said that, I grieve more for my family who were Baptists and then became SDAs than I do for those of you who were raised as SDAs with family that were raised in the same beliefs. It is easier to reach the lost with the gospel of the truth than it is to make your family swallow their pride and stop being arrogant and sure footed in their foolishness that they have chosen to adopt as the truth. I can only conclude one of two things with my family and only God knows the answer. The question is, are they unsaved without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or are they saved and grieving the Holy Spirit to the point that he is buried so deep under the garbage that he can't be heard anymore? Like I say, Only God knows our heart, but I have to keep praying for them anyway. We have to get the gospel out and unveal all of the lies that the SDAs have promoted down through the years, and not only the SDAs, we need to study the other cults as well so that we can better present the gospel to them. The devil is behind every false teaching of every false church and has been twisting the very word of God since the beginning of time when he made Eve begin to QUESTION the word of God. We have followed in our parents footsteps since the fall, amen? The devil even used the word of God to tempt Jesus with while he was in the wilderness for 40 days. I have posted about that before but would just mention that it is when we are lonely, when we are thirsty, and when we are hungry that the devil used the word to try and confuse us, and is the Father of all lies. I think it is of utmost importance to study what is being taught by ALL of them and then by praying for the indwelling Holy Spirit to show us the truth in the gospel so that we can relate it to them by presenting line upon line and precept upon precept.The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, and in him is the "fullness of the Godhead". Jesus is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and we must accept it by faith, and if we understood it, then it wouldn't be faith, would it? We just have to stand on God's word and know that he is working it all out for our good. Janice | ||
| Madelia (Madelia) |
I live in Minnesota, so funerals performed outside the church are not just a Southern thing!  | ||
| Loneviking (Loneviking) |
I think where the funeral is performed is more up to the family, or the deceaseds' last wishes. I've been to them at funeral homes, graveside and in the church. I'd say that it's also hard to generalize what an SDA funeral will be like because so much depends on who the minister is. At my aunts' funeral in Feb. there was a pretty good (for SDAism) explanation of the gospel and call for folks to come to know the Lord. So, you just never know........................... | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
Hey Terry!!I left the house in such a hurry that I left your e-mail address at home.I'll come back tomorrow[God willing]Anyway,yea go!Let them see how happy and how much freer you are.But of course they won't really be thinking that,but I would go and hold my head up high!!Jerry won't even bring his sda friends home with him,he studied in walmart parking lot for 3 hrs yesterday!That is ok with me,but I wouldn't be rude to them or nothing.I guess he thinks that I might 'lead somebody astray!'Well I'll e-mail u tomorrow. Angie | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Angie, my prayers for you continue, and also for your husband. Terry, I also think you should go to the graduation if you think your attendance is significant to them and to you. God will protect you wherever you are! Colleen | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
As to a response to the "Happy Sabbath".....it still makes me cringe as well but I always respond with: "Thanks! but I have a Happy Sabbath every single day of the week." This always receives a questioning smile...and you know they are thinking "you can't possible have a happy Sabbath everyday--it only happens once a week!" | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Of course, one could respond as I did to the wife of one of my pastors. She said, "Happy Sabbath." I responded, "Happy Circumcision." She was totally shocked (as well she should be) and said, "You should really talk to [her husband] about that!." Of course, I could have responded that my heart had been circumcised, but I didn't. I guess that's what I was meant to say at the time! Steve | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Thanks for the advice about going to the graduation party. I love my friend but I just am not sure I can face the rest of the crew. I might have to throw up. I guess that is not nice. Answer this question how to act around people who in this group really show no ties to christ just pope Ellen. The catch is that they think I am going to Hell. I do not want to hurt my friend I think I can get out of it saying that my son has a soccer game. Well I am thankful for all your prayers and thoughts. Terry | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
What a statement. It's all in the interpretation, but there is no such thing as Happy Sabbath compared to Happy Circumcision because keeping the Sabbath leaves us with nothing but the circumcision of the heart is final and forever. Praise God. Happy Mothers Day to especially those who have been Mothers but like was stated in church we might not all have been Mothers but we all have had Mothers. Carol | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
While still a member of the College View SDA Church, several years ago, I arrived early to Sabbath School one morning and noticed an elderly, affluent lady (someone I had known for many years) also waiting for class to begin. As I sat down, I made the mistake of simply asking her the age-old question, "How are you?" I can't remember exactly her response, but I felt somewhat sorry that I had "bothered" her. She boisterously informed me that I should have known that she is fine--always had been/always would be. Her mixed response, reflective of her wealth and arrogance, indicated to me that somehow my social stature was not high enough to be asking such a polite question of a highly-respected Adventist. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Dennis, I find myself wanting both to sigh and to giggle when I read your post above. I so completely understand the dynamics between you and that lady! Several years ago I had to meet a well-placed SDA professional at a restaurant at lunch (not to eat with him, mind you) in order to get a certain proof approved before publication. The restaurant was crowded, and the hostess ushered me to the wrong table--where said professional's equally professional father was also lunching with colleagues. (Let me stress the level of professionalism, particularly of the father, was very high by SDA standards.) Said father looked not merely annoyed but distinctly irritated when I appeared at his table. I recognized the mistake instantly and apologized, saying I was to meet his son and had been accidentaly brought to him. He looked at me with uncomfortably beedy eyes and his fork poised over his rare steak. The situation was palpably uncomfortable. The man was irritated with me--not because I'd caught him eating nearly raw meat--but simply because I interrupted him. One of his colleagues instantly perceived the situation and looked at me with obvious sympathy. He stood and offered to help me find the right table. I declined and left as fast as I could. After I spoke with the right person and left the restaurant, I walked to my car feeling guilty and ashamed, replaying the event in my mind to try to figure out what I had done wrong. It finally hit me that I had done nothing wrong; my feelings of shame were entirely projected onto me from that man. I was a mere peon who had NO BUSINESS interrupting his lunch. It was one of those moments that remains a vivid snapshot in my mind. It was so startling, yet so typical. Wow! The things we tolerated as some form of "normal"! And yet I can say now that God has redeemed even those moments; they provide the backdrop for understanding deception and dishonesty and arrogance in other places when I might otherwise be confused by them. BTW, I would appreciate your prayers for us and for our family; a fairly close family member (not immediate) died, and we will be attending an Adventist funeral in an ultra-conservative independent Adventist community this week. We won't be there long, but I pray we will be spiritually protected as well as being the presence and fragrance of Christ. Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
What is up with all of the funerals? Will pray for you, Colleen, I'm sure it will be sickening to hear how they are asleep in Christ, UGH! It was so nice to go to a funeral where the preacher said with conviction that he KNEW without a doubt that my father-in-law was in heaven, no longer suffering and with God. Somehow as an Adventist I always knew I wouldn't cease to exist, I reasoned in my own mind that my spirit or soul would be in heaven, though I wasn't quite sure what that meant. The visit with my mom wasn't so pleasant--I guess I did a good hostess with the fake hospitality show because she had a wonderful time--so said she, several times. She was elated that the kids are older and weren't "under foot" all of the time. I hope I'm a good grandmother and my grandkids aren't in the way...but I know that I've broken that generational curse, she never wanted much to do with me either when I was little. She went to church with me for the am service but wouldn't go the evening service as I'm sure they aren't used to that since "vespers" died out decades ago in the Laodicean church. I told her God would get her for keeping me out of church. :P Very uncompfortable, very stressing, very glad it's over! Isn't that terrible??? Sigh | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
No, Sabra, it's not terrible. It completely makes sense. And I just praise God that he puts us in His family, and he fills the holes in our hearts in ways we could not imagine. I'm sorry for the disappointment and discomfort you experience, but I also praise God for you that you were able to show her hospitality that was meaningful to her. How is your husband doing? Prayers for you both continue.... Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thank you for the prayers, my husband is doing OK, I guess, he internalizes everything, which isn't a good thing, but what can you do? I remember when my dad died it didn't hit me until some time later when I realized I couldn't just pick up the phone and call him anymore. I wasn't around him much in my life so it wasn't an immediate sense of loss. At least Ricky's dad was saved and we'll see him again. | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
SDA funerals are about the most depressing and agonizing way to spend my time that I can think of. I finilly went to a Lutheran funeral not long ago and the talk given by the pastor was based on John 3:16. Finilly I realized I wasn´t the only one who understood that verse to say what it really says. I remember as a child looking up the word ëverlasting¨in the dictionary. Then I figured my 5th grade teacher was stupid because I thought Mr. Webster knew what words ment more than my teacher did. A year ago I attended a jw memorial service (jw´s do not have funerals, I was told. This is because false religions have funerals and they are the truth so they do not have funerals. They have memorials.) Anyway, the jw service was totally dreadful. Maimly because the kingdom halls that are now being built have now windows and it is totally a feeling of being in satan´s closed quarters when in one ofd those buildings. | ||
| Kme Registered user Username: Kme Post Number: 24 Registered: 7-2000 |
I know no one has posted here in well, about a year, but since I'm faced with the decision to attend an SDA funeral or not this week, I'm going to put in my two cents. I had never been to anything other than an sDA funeral until about 2 years ago after we left the SDA church. A dear Nazerine minister died at a ripe-old age. I had always done anything, like baby-sit or house-sit to get out of going to a funeral. They were always so icky and I would cry and felt so sad and depressed even if it was someone whom I wasn't close to or hardly even knew! After attending this Nazerine funeral, I was no longer afraid of death and understood it was just a part of life. It was such a comfort to know this man was with God and it was only his body in the grave. It took the eeriness (sp?) surrounding death away from me as well. (I was traumatized as a young child with death and had always been afraid.) I told my parents who are SDA and were also friends of this man what a wonderful funeral it was! That I had never been to a funeral that was such a celebration of a life well-lived in service to God. The family was fine and knew he was no longer bound in a body that was bound by a wheelchair. They were happy! Having said all that, now I'm faced with this decision and I just can't bring myself to go. The thought of going and listening to an SDA sermon on death is just too much right now. (I have been heavily bombarded with SDA'ism lately.) I hate to say it, but I really don't want to go into an SDA church. Selfish as it sounds... Kme | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 271 Registered: 12-2003 |
Kme, I don't think you sound selfish at all. I understand how you feel. Ask God to clarify to you whether or not this funeral is something he wishes you to attend. It may be just fine for you not to go! I went to two Adventist funerals a few years after leaving the church, and I left really depressed and upset. Although they talk about the possibility of seeing the departed in the resurrection, they're tentative at best. They can't know whether or not someone is saved, and they have no hope to speak at a funeral. If you decide you need to go, God will protect you. Do, however, pray that the Holy Spirit will protect your heart from the deception and darkness that iis Adventism. Colleen | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 67 Registered: 3-2004 |
Yes, KME, I agree with Colleen that the Holy Spirit can give you some specific guidance here. I have an Adventist pastor friend who does funerals right. He celebrates their life and points people to Jesus. If the person was at all spiritual, he asks a family member for their Bible a day or so ahead so he can see what looked like their favorite passages. I know in one particular case when a couple of young men were saved at a funeral he had. They were from out of town and he knew the SDA church in their town was very legalistic, so he advised them that the Holy Spirit would direct them to the correct church, even if it was a Sunday one. It may be that you know what preacher you will face at this funeral. But there could also be an opportunity for you to interact with someone while there. So be open to the Holy Spirit if there may be such a divine appointment in the making. But if you sense itís best to stay home, then do so without feeling guilt and condemnation either from within yourself or from others. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Kme Registered user Username: Kme Post Number: 26 Registered: 7-2000 |
Thank you, for your support and encouragement. I will pray about it instead of just making my own head decision. I also thought that there might be an opportunity to say something of comfort to a couple of the family members that would probably not be said by anyone else. However, I'm also concerned about offending others with that. This is a very sticky situation. I find now, that the line between offense and getting through about sDA beliefs is vertually non-existant. All you can do, is plant a little seed and wait for God's light to shine on it. It may be years before you see that it anything has happened, and usually there is no appreciation for your effort at the time you plant it either! So I will make this decision prayerfully. Thank you. Have a blessed day! Kme |
