| Author | Message | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
I need help!!I finally got a reply from sda about the mediator issue.Instead of face to face,they sent a study for me,which is FINE with me.Anyway,I have went over it and read my Bible,so I have a ?.What is the seven spirits of God and the seven stars?[Rev.3:1,1:4,but the one they use is from Rev.4:5.They claim this is the seven lamps which is in the Holy Place,not Most Holy.But I know that some of you are familar with this teaching and know just what they claim,but I feel that it is in the seven spirits,I just can't connect it together.Please help,and you guys know me,so try not to use such big words!haha :] terry,did you get my last e-mail? God Bless, Angie | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Hi Angie, Perhaps this may help a little (or maybe too much or not enough, just let me know.) The teaching of the two apartments of the sanctuary is specifically from the earthly shadow, the one that God told Moses to build, and how to build. I believe we should take the actual scriptures that the individual presents and deal specifically with them. Use the same kind of thinking that the SDA is using and then let them realize how absolutely absurd it is to make the reality (heavenly sanctuary) in the form of the shadow (earthly sanctuary.) This would be equivalent to what some people do with God, they project the human ideal onto God and make him (it) into a Big Man. The heavenly sanctuary IS NOT the shadow. First, let's take the passage in Revelation 4:5-6. It reads: 5 Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; 6 and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind. Ask any Seventh-day Adventist about the earthly sanctuary. Ask them where the throne is in the first apartment. Ask them where the sea of glass is in the second apartment of the sanctuary. If they insist on their interpretation (regarding the apartments) then ask why the throne was moved out of the second and into the first apartment of the sanctuary. And how did a sea ever get into the second apartment? Apparently this is what happened in the heavenly sanctuary. Perhaps Moses did not make such a good copy of what God had shown him. Or maybe, just maybe, what God gave to Moses was not intended to be a PERFECT REPLICA of the heavenly but just a SHADOW! When does a shadow equal a perfect replica? Never. The SDAs have done a great job of making their "god" into a furniture mover. My God may cast them, furniture and all, into a very warm place for a verrrrry loooooong time. (I used to worship the Furniture Moving god, but then I got in with a better Moving company. They're moving me up one of these days!) However, regarding the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. What are they? First, the number 7. It is a significant number in scripture. Its primary use is for completeness (e.g., 7 days of creation.) Bullinger (not to be confused with Ballenger) wrote a classic called "Number In Scripture" in which he expounded upon virtually every number found in scripture (some of it speculative.) When 7 is used in reference to God, such as the 7 spirits of God, it is referring to the Holy Spirit, the "complete" Spirit of God in all His offices and functions. (When we refer to the Trinity we do not say three beings but One. The seven spirits of God does not mean that there is more than one spirit of God. The three persons of the Godhead does not mean that there are three Gods.) The seven lamps ARE NOT the seven stars. If you read the accounts in Exodus regarding the seven-branched candlestick that Moses was to put in the sanctuary, God gave him some very specific instructions. The oil, wick, etc. must be of excellent quality. The purpose of these lamps was as a display and reminder of Gods holiness to the Israelites. The lamps were lit 24 hours a day. Based on the passage you refer to in Rev. 4-5, the seven stars CANNOT be the seven lamps. The seven stars are in the right hand of Christ. In Rev. 1:20 it specifically states that "the seven stars are the seven angels of the seven churches,". The seven stars are neither the seven lamps (which Christ walks among) nor the seven spirits (which is the Holy Spirit.) Then what are the angels of the seven churches? In each of the 7 letters, the phrase is used, "And to the angel of the church in _______ write:" The letters then go on to say, "I know your tribulation...", "I know where you dwell...", "I know your deeds [X5]...". A very common interpretation based on these introductions of each letter is that they were written to the leader/pastor/overseer/elder of each of the seven churches in that province of Asia. It is also very interesting to note Jesus' statement about those who believe in Him. He said in John 10:28-29: 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. Apparently the 7 stars that Jesus has in His hand are human believers. They are also the angels of the seven churches, which seem to be referring to the leader of the individual churches. Hope this helps, Angie (or anyone reading.) Steve | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
ROTFL!!! Steve, Love that ìfurniture movingî imagery. That reminds me of an unjustified but hilarious stereotype. Did anyone ever see one of those comedy scenes in a movie or on TV where the flighty wife moving into a new house has one or two men moving a huge piece of furniture a zillion times to every corner of every room? This keeps up until the men are almost collapsing from exhaustion. Whereupon, she demands they move it one more time. So she has them move it to the very first place they put it. I find it amazing that Adventists so blithely mix and match imagery as it suits their purposes. What is so intriguing is how they can interpret the same phrase completely differently depending on their ìtheologicalî purpose. It becomes obvious that the Bible is just a construction toy to be assembled and rearranged in any way they wish. | ||
| Terryk (Terryk) |
Angie I have not gotten any mail from you in a few days. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Seems to me that the seven churches are representing the Church today and possibly relate to 7 continents, I think these spirits have come down through the centuries. Pergamos seems awfully close to describing the RCC, and look, there is Laodicea-hmmm, who could that be? Just kidding, it could be lots of churches today. This passage seems clear that the 7 stars are the angels assigned to the churches and the candlesticks are the individual 'churches' shining their light. I have no clue what the SDA's think it means, their interpretation seems so confusing to me. | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
Thanks alot Steve,no it wasn't too much,and it made sence to me,imagine that!!I had looked in my concordence and that is what it said for spirit,'complete God'.That thru me,so thanks alot.Sabra,I really don't know their interprtation of that,but I do know that by using this,that is how they justify Jesus entering the Most Holy in 1844.Crazy,I know!!Well,my internet is cut off,I'm sitting here at the librart,polluting my mind!haha,well,gotta go,have a mother daughter thing at church.If I don't get on,Happy Mothers Day and God Bless, Angie | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
Glad you're able to get to the library Angie! You will continue to be in our prayers! Focus on Jesus and let Him take care of the things around you. Carol #2 | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Thought I would post this one liner from another booklet that I just began reading titled "Just Before Heaven" from www.discoveryseries.org. I found it at the bottom of the web page of my devotional today that told of King Jehoram and how he led such a hateful life that when he died "No one missed him" and it made me sad for those who can't seem to find happiness in their lives or else FIND happiness in hating those of us who want no more than to love and be loved while leading our loved ones out of spiritual darkness into the wonderful life found when we come to rest in the arms of Jesus. That is why I wanted to create my web site about grace. This is a statement from the booklet that you can read from clicking at the bottom of the page of http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/odb/odb.shtml What makes life significant and what gives our thoughts and work lasting value is the awareness that at some time in the future our loving and merciful God will assign value to everything we have done (Eccl. 12:14). Hope that thought will help all of you who are asking "WHY" about so many things that the devil keeps throwing at you. Keep running for the prize, amen. I am battling a sinus infection again and didn't have the energy to go to work today, I left work yesterday at 8:30 and went to my doctor for antibiotics and allergy medications. Hope everybody is doing okay. Janice | ||
| Angie (Angie) |
Hey all,I just thought I would say hello.Last nite Jerry and I were talking and he accually said that he would rather be in a cult than to live the way I live~!Can you believe that!!Now I'm not a walking saint,but I know that the Lord will finish this work he has started in me,and to rather stay in a cult sounds alittle CRAZY or brain-wasshed to me!![Oh don't get me wrong,he isn't seeing the light,I had just called it a cult]And colleen,I;m at the point AGAIN,to just pray that God do HIS will,b/c JERRY IS DRIVING ME CRAZY!!!How he can say that I am doomed for Hell makes a very hard person to live with,for both of us.But I am fine,keeping my eyes on Jesus and in his word.God Bless, Angie | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Angie, I visited www.jackvanimpe.com this morning and it spoke about being a witness for Christ. I particularly liked what he said here: If you find that someone has been criticizing you, don't ever let it defeat you. If the criticism is untrue, disregard it. If it is unfair, keep from irritation. If it is ignorant, smile. If it is justified, learn from it. I thought that this was great for me and just on time after all the criticism that I got thrown at me last month. God is always right on time with the comforting of the Holy Spirit, and I have really been growing by reading up on adversity from www.intouch.org and my study in the book of Romans could not have come at a better time. It was like I told my sister a few months ago, Romans 8:28 is so very true because God has used all of this mess to build me up and make me stronger. I have gained many friends by simply talking about my problems with fellow Christians while seeking "godly" counsel. Colleen has really been doing a great job with her ministry too, she always says just the right thing even though I sometime really don't care to hear it, amen? I guess someone must have already clued her in on the information I posted above. It is a good set of guidelines to follow. I especially liked the last one that says "if it's ignorant, just SMILE." I don't want to sound too prideful though because I have had to readjust my halo on this pride thing. I do need to keep in mind that IF what is said about me is untrue and God knows my heart, well, I am just going to disregard it. I was once told by my son's counselor that the ONLY way that a person can really hurt you is IF you allow them to! I do pray for those of you though who have to live with your problems instead of just blocking your emails, amen? I do pray for God to send all of you his blessings and want my "God bless yous" to be more than just a closing on a post. Janice | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Since relatives have learned that I've been attending a Lutheran church this text keeps popping into their conversations with me, "Many will say, 'Lord, haven't we done great things in your name? Prophesing and preforming miracles? But, I will say to then, "Depart from me for I know you not and will spew them from my mouth'". This seems to be the text that my sda kin use as their proof text that all "Sunday-keeping" Chrisrtians are really of satan. Please, I would like some discussion on this text. What is it referring to? Who is it referring to? If I can't escapt the clutches of the kinfolk what is my reply to be? HELP!! | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
The difference between "Thou shalt keep the sabbath holy" and "I never knew you" may be exlained as follows: The Sabbath commandment was engraved on stone. Agree with them that it was the finger of God that actually wrote the commandments on stone. No sense in arguing against that part of the truth. Keeping the sabbath holy is part of THE MINISTRY OF CONDEMNATION & DEATH! Read II Cor. 3:7-10 7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. Once Jesus came, the glorry of the commandments written in stone was eliminated. It has NO GLORY. The passage in Matthew 7, provides the answer as to what it means to keep the law. Jesus said, "I never knew you." He then goes on to state exactly what Lawlessness means. Matt. 7:23-24: 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS. 24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. Lawlessness no longer has anything whatsoever to do with the commandments written in stone. Jesus' sermon on the mount are Jesus' very explicit instructions to His followers as to how to live. In not following the promptings of the Holy Spirit we are lawless and do not know Jesus. If we listen to the Spirit, allow Him to continually teach and edify us (build up). Then we are like the man who built his house on a ROCK. A counter argument that may arise is, "But the Holy Spirit teaches me that I must obey the Ten Commandments." My response? That spirirt is not "holy." II Cor. 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. The Law was to point out the need of a savior, WE SHOULD NEVER USE THE NEED OF A SAVIOR OF LIFE TO POINT OUT THE NECESSITY OF KEEPING A MINISTRY OF DEATH! Hopefully this provides some insight Susan. I've learned quite a lot in looking into this. Thanks for the question. Steve | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Great answer, Steve! Another thing that is interesting about the passages where God will condemn the lawless as people He never "knew" is that the word translated "knew" is a word denoting intimacy, including sexual intimacy. How, then, are we intimate with God? He indwells us when we accept Jesus. The Holy Spirit indwelling us is the intimacy which Christ desires. It is our new birth into God's family. People can do every imaginable kind of good work, even miracles, in Jesus' name, but if they are not born again and truly new creations, one with God, then God does not "know" them. Only those who are born again can enter the kingdom of heaven, Jesus told Nicodemus. (John 3:5-7) Praise God for making us new in Him! Colleen | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
Steve and Colleen, I sure do learn a lot from you two. Thanks. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Anybody ever notice this: 1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. I know I have read it but Janice and I were corresponding about death and that verse just popped out at me. The NIV says the power of sin is the law. That is quite a verse! The strength or power of sin is the law. In other words, since Romans tells us that under the Spirit sin has no dominion over us, it did under the law, in fact it says the very power of sin was in the law, wow, I'm going to have to chew on that a while. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
That is interesting, Sabra. Your observation confirms that most Christians do not understand that the new covenant is a completely new reality! The law carried a curse in it: death to any who disobey. (That would be, oh--about 100% of us!) The law had teeth in it; people couldn't ignore or deny their sin anymore once they had the law. Enter Jesus: Galatians 3:13 says, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us..." So, the strength of the law--the certain curse of death for lawbreakers--was fulfilled in Jesus. He became the curse and removed it from us. Now, the law no longer stands in front of us, making us conscious of sin and driving us to desperation because we are constantly confronted by the law which we can't uphold. Now the Spirit is in charge of us, not the law! I think the place where Adventists (and probably a lot of other Christians, too) get confused is that the law doesn't just disappear after Jesus. It is FULFILLED and set aside in the lives of believers. Jesus absolutely had to become the curse that was the teeth behind the law in order to get the law off our backs. It's not that a new idea came to replace an old idea that didn't work. Jesus totally lived the law and embodied both the righteousness and perfection God demanded, and he became the curse; he became sin for us. The entire law was fulfilled in Jesus. He didn't destroy it; it was, after all, the written expression of the reality of God's demand for perfection and the compelementary reality of God's demand for justice for the unrighteous. It's just that Jesus fulfilled both sides of the law's demand: the demand for perfection, and the demand for justice and death. So now we have Jesus instead of the law. The law has been satisfied. We now live by the Spirit, and sin doesn't have any more power over us once we accept Jesus and the new birth. Jesus is our master; the Spirit is our guide and strength. The law continues to drive unbelievers to the desperation of facing their intractable sin. That was such an intresting observation, Sabra! Thanks for sharing it and causing me to think through the subject from a different angle! Thankful for Jesus, Colleen | ||
| Speakeasy (Speakeasy) |
I've got a question. I am having a hard time on the topic of the Trinity. Anybody could help me out on this subject with some study's and verses would be great. Why would Jesus being God and the Holy Spirit in one person. Why would Jesus pray to himself on the Cross and also pray to himself when Satan was questioning him. This subject is something I am having problems with. Why does the Church say we really just have to have faith that the trinity is so. That this is just one of those questions that we will have to ask God on judgement day. But in the mean time we must believe that the trinity is true. If the trinity is true why would God make it so hard for many to understand. And is understanding or believing in the trinity a salavtional point? speakeasy | ||
| Chris (Chris) |
Speakeasy, The concept of the Trinity comes from 3 truths that are taught in many places in the Bible: 1) There is only one God (not many Gods, not even three Gods, just one). 2) The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Spirit is God. 3) The Father, Son, and Spirit our eternally distinct. These truths are indeed difficult to fully comprehend and yet the Bible does teach all 3. And becasue the Bible affirms these truths the Church has always upheld that "within the one Being that is God, there exist eternally three coequal and coeternal Persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Def. by JR White). Keep in mind that the term "persons" is inadequate to describe the eternal relationships within God. It should not be understood as three different people walking around, but should be understood as a way stating that there are eternal relationships within God such that God is complete within Himself: The Father loves the Son, the Son loves the Father, the Son speaks with the Father, the Spirit proceeds from the Father, the Spirit is sent by the Son, etc. So this means that when Jesus prayed, the Son was praying to Father......there is a real personal subject object distinction even thought the Father, Son, and Spirit are one in essence. I believe this is a VERY important doctrine since nearly all damaging hearesy starts with a misunderstanding about the nature of God. I believe we could even say that much about Adventism would have been very different if the SDA pioneers had understood who Jesus truly was and what He did. I would recommend this article for a start: http://www.equip.org/free/DT250.pdf You may also want to go to www.equip.org and search for "trinity" for a more comprehensive list of books and articles. If one of the three planks of the trinitarian doctrine is especially difficult for you please let me know and I'll be happy to take a bit more time then I have right now and provide you with some scriptural support for that plank. May God bless. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Speakeasy, Chris is right. Paul says the Father sent the Son to us, and Jesus said that he was returning to his Father but would send us another Comforter, the Holy Spirit. What exactly the reality of three "persons" and one God "looks" like, we can't begin to understand here in our three-dimensional lives on earth. But all three persons are described in the Bible, and all three function in our lives. When we are born again, we become God's children, and we can call him "Abba", Father. We become joint heirs with Christ. We are filled with the Holy Spirit who puts God's power and life in our mortal bodies and produces the fruit of the Spirit in us. Early Adventism, as Chris said, did not believe in the Trinity. In fact, the old SDA hymnal ended the song "Holy, Holy, Holy" with the phrase, "God over all who rules eternally" instead of with the real phrase, "God in three persons, blessed Trinity." The new hymnal published in 1985 corrected the hymn and it now has the original last line. Judaism also denies the Trinity. They have to deny it in order to keep from acknowledging the identity of Jesus. I suspect that some Messianic Jews also struggle with the Trinity. If one derives his doctrines mainly from the Old Testament, the reality of Jesus as the third person of the Trinity is harder to see than it is in the new. Even though countless prophecies and ceremonies spoke of the work and personhood of the Savior, the God-man, his reality as we know him was not clear as it is to us. It is vitally important that we use the whole Bible to understand our Christian doctrines. As with all other eternal truths, the doctrine of the Trinity is one which Satan seeks to obscure or modify. It is always important to study these questions with prayer that God will show us the truth, teach us what he wants us to know, and help us to change in the way(s) he wants us to change. Colleen | ||
| Speakeasy (Speakeasy) |
The trinity to me is to hard to not only understand but also to see it as clearly as what many people see. So if G-d came now for his people that believe in him. Would I be someone that would be left behind? I would say yes, Because this is told by all bible believing churchs that the Trinity is one of the core strong hold beleifs you must adhear to. So in there words I maybe left behind. Becuase I just don't understand! So it to me is not a major point. So if the Trinity was a big deal for marking a person as a christian. Paul sure didn't make a big deal out of this at all. Correct me if I am wrong. Also more on the Trinity would be great. I want to see this like most christians se it. I would love to get this solved. Many christians have a hard time with this. I can't be the only one. Speakeasy |
