| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 53 Registered: 4-2000 |
Colleen, I wholeheartedly agree with your thought about SDA "face-lifts" to appear externally orthodox. I recently saw an online blueprint for the new addition to the College View SDA Church here in Lincoln, Nebraska. I was puzzled that they plan to put up a large pillar with a Cross atop near the church entrance. This is truly a "pagan symbol" according to their historic teachings. However, this Cross will embellish their local public relations. During the last twenty years, they also slowly evolved with lighted Christmas trees and wreaths in the sanctuary (an EGW prohibition). Wow, they even have a worship praise team that sings contemporary Christian songs. They love singing these "Sunday-keeper" songs--although without the celebratory praise found in my church. They still have to be extra careful not to get very excited while singing. Despite their visible restraint, the older Adventists just wish that they would perpetually disappear. During the Union College Alumni Homecoming last weekend, a traditional SDA service was in place--including formal music and the nostalgic, authentic pulpit (SDA relic) that Ellen White preached from when she visited the College View SDA Church. Apparently, they felt the UC alumni would be more generous in their giving with a traditional service. Dennis J. Fischer PS: Readers may wonder how I know so much about their worship services. I sometimes take a glimpse at their televised services on a community TV channel on Tuesday nights. Also, local SDA members still keep me well informed. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 259 Registered: 7-2003 |
Dennis, the UC advancement office (fund raising arm of UC) plays both side of the aisle. They may have had a traditional church service for the older alumni on Sat. morning, but on Friday night they had an open "bar" at the coffee house across the street for the younger alumni. Coffee with Caffine *AND* on a Friday night.....Oh My!!!!!! :-) Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 139 Registered: 12-2003 |
An open caffeine bar on Friday night, and the EGW pulpit on Sabbath. It's actually kind-of funny in a perverse sort of way! I had to smile, Dennis, at your label, "these 'Sunday-keeper' songs"! Praisegod, thank you for sharing those stages of grieving. You are absolutely right; all of us who leave ‰dventism or any other life-defining orgnaization go through (sometimes extended) grief. I remember being aware that I was bouncing back and forth between different stages of grief during the year or two we decided to leave and set the process in motion. I also remember feeling profoundly that I was going through another divorce; I was losing my most basic identity, and I had no idea what I would find outside the fold. I also second what Chris said above; there is powerful spiritual warfare raging around every person who leaves. When a person discovers he or she is a child of God, his new identity and power put him squarely in opposition to Satan and his minions. I often remember that Oswald Chambers said when we serve God and suffer because of that service, we are taking the arrows for Christ. Somehow that reminder both comforts and strengthens me. I wish everyone a blessed Good Friday! Colleen | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 26 Registered: 10-2002 |
Carol 2, On April 1, you mentioned your mother's new pastor. His name is Rick Odle and he is moving from Joliet, IL where he currently pastors 2 churches. Rick was an Assemblies of God pastor when he went to work on a part-time basis for 3ABN. His job was puting the programs on the air (Master Control). Over a period of time, as he watched these programs, Rick began to study along with them and he eventually came to believe the fundamental doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church. After several years as the head of Pastoral Ministries at 3ABN, Rick decided to go back into full-time pastoring of a church. Pastor Rick is a great man, and a good friend. I believe your mother will be pleased. Derrell | ||
| Steve Registered user Username: Steve Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2000 |
Hi Bill, Chris & Others, I don't think that Ravi Zacharias swallowed the lies of the SDA church, hook line & sinker. That is Walter Martin's work, and Walter Martin was almost totally deceived about SDAism. In the mid-1980's he began to change his mind and sent Kenneth Samples to do updated, in-depth research. After Martin died in 1989, Hanegraaff took over and destroyed the work of Martin and several great researchers were lost to the organization. On the whole, the Kingdom of the Cults, particularly with it's current revision, is still considered by Evangelical Christians to be one of the top 5 Christian books ever written. The section on The Puzzle of Seventh-day Adventism includes both Martin's deceived understanding of the NATURE of the church, while he still provided an excellent Christian apologetic against the specific doctrines of the church. Zacharias has consulted with Kenneth Samples regarding the SDA church. The primary addition of Zacharias to this section of the book is as follows:
I do agree, however, that Zacharias here does not realize the nature of the "evangelical" movement within Adventism. Most researchers only allow us "formers" to influence their research to a small degree. Therefore their task becomes problematic with a highly-skilled deceptive organization. In Martin's original research, the SDA church was the ONLY church that claimed to be in agreement with evangelical Christianity. The Christian Science church, the Bahais, the Mormons, the "Moonies" and everyone else did not try to deceive Martin. The Adventists tried deliberately to deceive AND WERE SUCCESSFUL! Just like the serpent in the garden of Eden, the SDA church was "more subtle" than all the other "cults" of the field. It took the Adventists over 100 years to finally deceive the evangelicals. Hopefully, it won't take 100 years to put them back in their appropriate place. Martin began attempting to do just that before he passed away. See the Ankerberg programs when Martin met with William Johnsson in 1985. It was eye opening to see Martin come to understand that he may have been deceived from the very beginning. I still recommend the Kingdom of the Cults, particularly Zacharias' revised edition, to be in everyone's library. Martin made a terrible mistake. It has been horrible for so many who trusted him regarding Adventism, myself included. Will Martin go to hell for that? I'm sure many have reacted like that. I was very angry with him for many years. I had committed to memory, virtually all of the original Kingdom of the Cults as well as other materials available from Martin. I've had to undo so much. My hope now is that Kenneth Samples continues his research to document the final untransformation of the Adventist church. All the other cults are highly successful at winning non-Christians and deceived Believers into their folds. The Adventist church is the only church to have deceived Evangelical Christianity (although only 50% or so.) I now look at that section of the book (and only that section, the rest is excellent and original research) as one of the greatest deceptions by any cult. I steer people away from that section on Adventism, but still recommend the book. It was groundbreaking in its time and is still one of the best references on cults and -isms available. OK, let the floggings begin! Steve | ||
| Steve Registered user Username: Steve Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2000 |
OOOPS! "There is a third growing faction . . ." That's how the quote is supposed to start. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2000 |
Steve, Are there any available transcripts of the Ankerberg programs? Truly, Dr. Walter Martin was deceived in the 1950s as a young, inexperienced cult specialist. The SDA book, QUESTIONS ON DOCTRINE (Copyright 1957), even declared "That the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, contain an ALL-SUFFICIENT revelation of His will to men, and are the only UNERRING rule of faith and practice (2 Tim. 3:15-17)." Obviously, they knew what the Evangelicals wanted them to say. Sadly, the words "all-sufficient" and "unerring" were later removed from their official statement on the Bible. HAPPY EASTER TO ALL! Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Steve Registered user Username: Steve Post Number: 22 Registered: 7-2000 |
Hi Dennis, Thank you, I did have a Happy Easter! I'm not sure whether transcripts are available or not. However, you can go to the John Ankerberg website and order the video. I have a copy of the video, but would like to transfer to DVD. (I just sold my video player.) Your point is right on. They knew what language the Evangelicals wanted to see. They used that language purposefully. The information regarding choice of language is available in the Annotated edition of Questions On Doctrine. Or, you could wait for the review of the book to be posted on this website. (It's been with an editor for a while, perhaps the editing needed to be extensive!) In the review I included statements from GC leadership at the time indicating the use of unusual wording had to be used.
Because I'd like to get transcripts of the actual programs myself, I'll look further into it and post here what I find. Steve | ||
| Steve Registered user Username: Steve Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2000 |
Dennis, Yes. The transcripts are available. The link below goes to the page on the Ankerberg site that has ordering info for the program, Seventh-day Adventism: Who Is Telling the Truth? It's near the bottom of the page. Info re: the video, audiocassette and transcript is available there. Here's the link: Ankerberg Theological Research Institute-Apologetics Steve | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 262 Registered: 7-2003 |
In the link above....Who is Dr. William Johnsson? Is he sda, former or neither?...if you know... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 150 Registered: 12-2003 |
Dr. Johnsson is currently the editor of The Adventist Review, the "official organ" of the Seventh-day Adventist church, as they always called it when I was growing up. I'm not sure how many years he has been the editor--many--but he was well-placed in the denomination even before becoming it's highest-ranking editor. On the Ankerberg show, Martin tries to get straight answers re: SDA theology from Johnsson, and he cannot get them. You can visibly see Martin's growing frustration and doubt about what he'd been led to believe. These video transcripts are really significant, in my opinion. I highly recommend them. | ||
| Steve Registered user Username: Steve Post Number: 27 Registered: 7-2000 |
It's also significant to see William Johnsson get upset a few times. It's apparent that he can't use certain phrases. The most significant being, "The blood of Jesus has blotted out my sins." Johnsson says that Jesus' blood has resulted in the word "pardon" being entered next to his name in the "books in heaven" while his sin still remain to be blotted out based on whether he was a "real" Christian or not. It's sad. But I'm thankful for that program. Seeing an expert such as Martin, who had been deceived in the 1950's, realize the deception that has been going on, played a significant role in my own leaving of the SDA church. Steve | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 45 Registered: 3-2004 |
Today I went to the SDA church service where my husband attends for the first time this year. They are getting toward the end of their evangelistic series so now visitors know they are dealing with the Adventist church. (The church sign is still covered but the hymnals are back in the pews and the church van was out front.) The message today was on Ellen White. Iíll have to give it to the evangelist that he didnít try to say she had never made a mistake! Guess theyíve learned their lesson on that one. But he did try an approach I hadnít seen before. He tried to look mainstream by quotes such as Paul Harvey. Thenóand this was new to me, he posted a letter by James Dobson of Focus on the Family to someone named Kunky thanking her for the EGW book she sent. The letter went on to state that he had ALL of EGWís book and was blessed by them and if he had ever gotten to meet her he knows they would have been kindred spirits. Something like that anyway. After the service I asked him for the reference. He said he thought it was a few years old. Then he admitted his son had given him the information. Have you ever heard this before? The way the letter sounded, there seems to be a big problem. Either itís not truly from James Dobson or else he doesnít have a clue as to what he was validating or how itís being used now. I plan to dash off an e-mail to FOF, but was just wondering if any of you had heard of this? The whole message was very sad in that it was about the SDA church being special, the only true church, the remnant. ěKeeping the commandments without a 10% discount.î Being the only church with a health message. (more secular quotes to look good) The biggest protestant educational system. Coming out of Babylon into the SDA church. Everything focused on the church; nothing focused on Jesus Christ and the Gospel. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Qweary Registered user Username: Qweary Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2004 |
Sounds like a Sabbath I spent a couple years ago. My brother and I were to sing a duet for church (Was visiting, used to go to church there years ago) and OLD Dr. Frazee was giving a sermon he was going to give in Russia or some place. I thanked God that we got to sing before he started in as he went on and on with the WHOLE "message"! My no-longer-SDA husband, son and wife were in the church too, so when Dr. started downing the Promise Keepers, my husband left. Then he started in on some other chuches, my sun and wife walked out. I was just recovering from a triple bypass, so was getting a little restless anyway, so my brother understood I needed to get some AIR! You're right, No mention of what Jesus did for us, just the same old "hold the LINE" stuff. I felt sorry for those folk who were to hear the "Gospel" he preached. That's the last SDA church I've attended. Sameold same old!! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 209 Registered: 12-2003 |
Praisegod, I haven't heard anything like the reference to Dobson and EGW you mentioned above, but somehow I guess I;m nopt completely surprised. I'd love to hear if you get any response back from FOF if you write to them! Today we heard the sermon from La Sierra Church on the radio (while we were working on some redecorating/remodelling projects, ironically enough!) The subject was The Sabbath. Senior pastor Dan Smith said some pretty amazing stuff--not new, but amazing given that church's attempts to position themsleves as grace-based. One thing he said was that an Adventist can travel around the world and can meet many other Adventists. They may not agree about many things, such as the nature of Christ (yes, he actually said "the nature of Christ"), but they will find that they are all unified by the Sabbath. He said this fact warmly, affirming the special belonging-ness of it. I was appalled, not because I didn't understand this phenomenon, but because I realized that Smith had actually put into words a reaction that elevates Sabbath to the place of the Holy Spirit. He also said they are defined not only by Christ and what he did on the cross but by the Sabbath. Further, he said that Jesus meets us in a special way on the Sabbath that he doesn't meet us other days. He said Sabbath is a foretaste of heaven, and as such we need to anticipate and prepare for Sabbath. We need to prepare the best food, etc., and enjoy the day. It is, after all, a foretaste of heaven. He had not one mention of Sabbath being a shadow of Jesus. I realized that by making Sabbath a foretaste of heaven, not of Jesus, he cements the idea that Sabbath is about time and place, not about Jesus and a relationship with him. I am so grateful for the Bible and the Holy Spirit's making the Sabbath so very clear! Colleen | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 300 Registered: 7-2003 |
Last year I sent FOTF an email that I posted here regardings the use of the word Sabbath in reference to Sunday. I got an email back from one of the staff of FOTF. I have an exceptionally hard time thinking James Dobson personally has time to send personal letters. i have supported their ministry for years and never gotten anything but letters from support staff representing FOTF...but it is very clearly not personally from Dobson. (not counting his "personal" letter he sends to the entire mailing list".) I think someone is using a popular name and trying to validate someone I personally believe he would never validate...if for Great Controversy alone. But most people are going to take what people say without checking it out. I'm fascinated to watch B in that respect. if i say something, he doesn't believe it until he goes to look it up. If an SDA says something, he believes it out of hand regardless of how wacked out it sounds. I hope you do write FOTF and be very specific as to who is using Dobson's name and how. I suspect (hope) they might want to do something about it...presuming it's not true. | ||
| Derrell Registered user Username: Derrell Post Number: 27 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi guys, The following is a letter that Pastor Jan Marcussen printed in his newsletter. It is funny, and sad, that he and his readers take this stuff seriously. "Dear Pastor Jan, It is with deepest regret and not a little foreboding that I write to you, for due to your much speaking and writing, especially your Sunday Law book, you are becoming known to us. I write only because, as a former Seventh-day Adventist I still feel some ties of pity and maybe even a touch of remorse for you. For though I pray unceasingly for the soon cessation of the monkey-wrenching business of the SDAs, I am not without a pang of personal regret for you, and I do not wish to see you in personal anguish however much I abhor the work you are doing. Hence the warning: CEASE YOUR LABORS IMMEDIATELY. SUBMIT YOURSELF TO ROME. PROSTRATE YOURSELF BEFORE THE HOLY PONTIFF, BELSSED BE HIS NAME FOREVER, AND PLEAD FOR MERCY AND FORGIVENESS BEFORE IT IS FOREVER TOO LATE FOR YOU. CHOSSE YE THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE. I have asked and received the personal assurance of a source highly place and close to the Holy Father, that you will be received back into the one and only Church Universal and True with warm and loving arms, and - after debriefing and a suitable period of re-education within the holy traditions - you may be allowed to seek permission from the Holy Father, blessed be his name forever, to join us in rooting out the veritable error (even as I am now doing) that you up to this point have persisted in perpetuating. Rest assured that I can testify to the effect that if you perform your sacred assignments with due dedication, dispatch and alacrity, your yearly remuneration, not to mention expense account, will be guaranteed perpetual and generous in the extreme. As you know only too well, the work of our order has been extraodinarily successful among the SDAs in the North American Division. According to our many agents in the field, relatively few of you are left who remain true to the original principles of your schismatic group, which has proven to be one of the few thorns in the side of the one and only Church Universal and True. If you perform this act of saving yourself, you will have my personal guarantee that you will be spared when inevitably the awesome hands stretch across the gulf and the much-yearned-for three-fold union is at last complete. I was prepared to give you this warning in person at one of your meeting across this great land from sea to shining sea, but was prevented by a handsome and pwerful looking, blond blue-eyed young man with a conservative hair cut, clean-shaven and wearing a traditional blue business suit, whom I judged to be at least seven feet tall, standing in my way and preventing me. He told me to leave you alone because you had important work to do. I was aghast. I had told no one of my plans! And I have no idea how he knew them. But I am convinced now that he was an agent of the adversary, sent to thwart my plans. So now I am reduced to sending you this warning in writing, and in view of this recent set back, caused by this detestable giant, I cannot reveal my true identity to you at this time. Take heed then, and until we are in further touch with you, I remain sincerely yours, Order of Former Seventh-day Adventists (OFS) The One Church Universal and True Seat of Rome" | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 306 Registered: 7-2003 |
Ha! That's some funny stuff.....the funny thing is that it wouldn't suprise me at all if it truly was written by a former SDA. I can easily see a former with a sense of humor writing this totally tongue and cheek assuming Marcussen would understand it as the satire that it is. The fact that Marcussen printed it suggests he took it seriously which is funnier yet! Chris | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 301 Registered: 7-2003 |
Is there a subtle fear tactic in there that if you leave adventism you are joining hands with Rome? Would he/his associates create such a thing to generate fear among those contemplating leaving? That is seriously weird. One part sounds like the passage in Daniel where the angel was fighting with demons to bring him God's message. Is that how they see those outside adventism? I guess I see it as a plant. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 212 Registered: 12-2003 |
Exactly my thought, Chris. I suspect Marcussen took it seriously! Wow--this reminds me of the quote I heard years ago from a clinical psychologist: If you break from sincerity, you will ultimately break from reality. Too bad Marcussen missed the humor! Colleen |
