| Author | Message | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 61 Registered: 10-2001 |
Welcome Dane!! I do have a little inside scoop on EGW. I've been corresponding with an SDA who is organizing a group of officials and members in the church to remove EGW from her pedestal--his words. He does not believe in her at all anymore and also has denounced the food laws. Still very much SDA but it is precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little. I go with Pheeki's prediction  As far as them going abroad.....I hear they don't quite know what to do with the "charisma" of those over there, so they leave them alone and keep the numbers. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 268 Registered: 7-2003 |
I know of a doctor in FL that has a small group working on a project to "rewrite" the 27 fundamentals without any EGW influence. Unfortunately, I think he's going about it in the wrong way though becasue he is basically trying to retain almost all of the SDA distinctives without retaining EGW. The apporach is NOT, "let's see what the Bible has to say", but "lets see how we can prove what we've been taught in Adventism without resorting to EGW". Even in the draft of the new 27 that I've seen there are a number of things that are clearly from EGW rather than the Bible, but I would guess this group is still a bit blind to which things they accept as true are really from the Bible and which are from EGW. I know this is still a discovery process for me. I constantly have to ask myself if a certain thing I assume is truly biblically based or an artifact of my SDA life. Still, it's good to hear that there are various groups questioning the authority of EGW. I tend to think when she falls in someone's mind, it is only a matter of time before they question other pieces of SDA dogma as well. Chris | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 55 Registered: 4-2000 |
Many years ago, a theology graduate from nearby PUC toured Ellen White's Elmshaven home in northern California, the solemn-faced guide declared, "Here is where the angel stood." The young pastor asked with an astonished grin, "Was his name Maroni?" Since that time, it has been reported that the guides don't repeat that line anymore. A few years ago, I read in the Adventist Review about an official SDA delegation that visited the restored village surrounding the life of Joseph Smith (Nauvoo village). The delegation was attempting to utilize the Mormon expertise in their plans for restoring Ellen White's home in Battle Creek. Similarly, alot of money was spent to create a SDA pioneer village. False prophets need alot of propaganda to stay ingrained in the minds of the deceived. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 267 Registered: 7-2003 |
And it seems the farther and farther away you get from people who were alive and knew her, the more and more selective the information given about her is. If you read the books of people who were alive and personally in contact with her, the tone is far different than for people who never knew her, but are trying to display her in their image of who she was supposed to be. B and his sister-in-law both report in their individual churches that respect for EGW is mixed. Some hold to her, others don't, and others hold her above all (including scripture). Minor flaws to them. That's the price you pay when you have the "truth". | ||
| Mary_jane Registered user Username: Mary_jane Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2004 |
Greetings! I'm another new member. I've been "lurking" forever. I just seem to HAVE to know what you all are saying; many of you have stories similiar to mine. Others don't. I don't really have any problems regarding family members who are Adventist, because I think all the SDA relatives are dead, other than one or two. Not that I'm THAT old, but my parents were older when I was born, and my aunts and uncles are all gone now. My children are still church members, but in name only. My husband asked for his membership to be dropped when I did, but he still calls it "our" church, and that sort of thing, which burns me up every time I hear it. Every now and then, when he does that, I mutter "It's not MY church", and he gets upset with me. He believes, like I do, that Mrs. White was ONE GIANT SCAM on people who were easily taken in by that sort of thing, and the ones who stay either do because all their friends and relatives are SDAs, or else they're totally BRAINWASHED. He does, although, believe that Saturday is the Sabbath, and I don't think he'll ever change on that one. He also makes comments occasionally about how when people figure it out about Mrs. White, that will cause "the shaking". Of course, I then remind him that it was HER who predicted that, and he usually shuts up about it. It's so funny, after reading what all of you say about the covenants and such...I've always been pretty open-minded, so it all makes sense...but my poor husband, who is fifteen years older than me, and just a tad set in his ways, has a hard time. He HAS changed a lot. I don't mean to put him down. It is just hard for him to take it all in. I copy information from various websites, and we get the Proclamation, and he loves it all. I do not think the SDA church will ever drop its stand on EGW or anything else. To admit it's wrong about ANYTHING would mean a loss of MONEY and POWER. Remember the Jewish leaders in Jesus time? The same problem!!! If you don't agree, you can leave, as far as they are concerned. They wash their hands of you, and let their henchmen make you feel like you're not good enough, damned to hell, etc. Personally, I don't think they are the judge!!! It just makes me cry inside to think of all the kids I went to academy with (BMA) who left the church because they just couldn't live up to all the rules, and thought they were "lost". I know one who is now an alcoholic, and thinks she's nothing...if she isn't already dead. Myself, I find it a tough thing to even believe in God. I try, off and on. Sometimes I think He's there. Other times I'm quite sure there's no such thing. I believe, though, that He has shown himself, if he does exist, in different ways in different places to different people. I think that's why there are Buddhists and Hindus and Moslems and others. I don't really think Christians have the whole answer. I'm sure most of you don't agree with that. I'm certainly not against any of you, because I believe everyone has the right to what they believe, even if they're pagan or wiccan. And I don't try to change anyone else's beliefs. One of my best friend is a Buddhist, and she's perfect just the way she is. I would never want to change one part of her. Best wishes to all! MJ | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 153 Registered: 12-2003 |
Welcome, Dane! We're looking forward to hearing more from you! Melissa, my personal take on EGW is that she started out as a troubled young woman looking to religion for relief and order and meaning in her life. She quite likely may have had seizues. I theorize that because of the trauma in her life (we know for sure she was hit in the head, unconscious for two weeks, and never able to resume schoolóand we really have no idea what other trauma she may have experienced), she was vulnerable to people who promised holiness, specialness, belonging, you name it. When she began to have visions (which really could have been--but don't necessarily have to have been--temporal lobe seizures which are often charaterized by having religious content), the young, entrepreneurial James White saw a potentially profitable thing. I suspect that in her early years, she was used for her "gift", and it didn't take her long to see that her visions gave her great power as well. She could have visions to expose people she resented, to establish practices which benefitted her and James (reform dress, for example), and to generally get her way if need be. Before I left Adventism I heard some SDAs discussing the possiblity that she had really been a well-intentioned woman who loved Jesus but whose contributions were twisted and misused by men who wanted power and control over the fledgling church. I really question that analysis. I do think she was an emotionally, psychologically wounded young woman who found a way to be important after growing up in a family where she had no voice and was probably an embarassment. I question whether or not she ever knew Jesus. She herself said in her younger years that she sometimes questioned whether her visions were from Satan or God. ( I read her quotes to that effect in some unpublished research sent to me several years ago when I worked for Adventist Today.) All in all, she was a false prophet. Praise God for redeeming our pasts! Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 154 Registered: 12-2003 |
Welcome, Mary Jane! I missed you in the last post; I began writing it this A.M., had to leave, and just came back without checking the message board first! I just wondered if you've read either of Dale Ratzlaff's books, "Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists" or "Sabbath in Christ". I ask specifically about them because they are such clear studies that show the difference between Adventism and orthodox Christian beliefs. I understand where you're coming from re: feeling that you're uncertain whether there is any absolute truth. In fact, I believe that very uncertainty is one of the byproducts of being steeped in Adventism (or any other "separatist" belief system) and discovering that it can't be true. I would just like to suggest that you withhold any decision to settle into agnositicm until you ask God to help you know, in a way you will understand, whether or not he is real and whether or not Jesus is the only Salvation for all mankind. Such a request presupposes that you would be willing to know and believe if such certainty were possible. Christianity really is the ONLY belief system that does not require any goodness or effort on our parts in order to be saved. Only Christianity offers salvation which is free to us and real power over the destructive coping skills and patterns in our lives. Many people are offended by the idea that they don't have to contribute to their salvation. Salvation, though, is not free. It cost God unimaginable suffering and loss. It's often harder for us to accept such expense on the part of another than it is to try to "pay" ourselves. I'm certain you have questions and cognitive dissonances you can't resolve. I'd just like to challenge you to approach God honestly and agree to be willing to know whether or not He and His word are true and real. Spiritual things are not understood intellectually; no amount of thinking and figuring will make sense out of spiritual reality. We just have to be willing to know and to see what we cannot perceive by our own efforts, and we need to desire truth, not deception. With prayers for you, Colleen | ||
| Dane Registered user Username: Dane Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2004 |
Mary Jane, I can completely understand your thinking at this point. When you spend years believing that a "closed system" like SDA has all truth and then discover it is false, you question everything. I second Colleen's advice. Please don't make any hasty decisions. Pray and study. We will pray for you. Note to Colleen; I submitted our story of leaving SDA. Hope you get it. Dane | ||
| Jeannette Registered user Username: Jeannette Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2003 |
Chris: Is this Dr. from Orlando? There is a wonderful pediatrician at the church we attended and it was through him that I delved more into the EGW issue. He invited Dr. Ford to speak at one of the SS classes about the IJ and he also had Dr. Veltman ( I think that's his name) speak about EGW pliagerism. It really baffles me that with all this evidence presented people continued to beleive in her writings, and a couple of weeks later they were quoting her and saying "how lucky we were to have such truths". If this is the same Dr. pray really hard for him, that God will open his eyes. He and his wife are wonderful, caring people. Jeannette | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 25 Registered: 1-2004 |
Mary Jane, your experience is very similar to me. This cultic doctrine went in me so deep that before I could take anything new I have to go through "purifying fire" and lose everything, even my will to live. I, too, contradicted Gods¥existence and questioned the whole point of this miserably life. But somewhere in me, very, very deep inside, there were a weak light which stayed through all this. It was assurance of that fact that God exists. It assured me day by day that if only I have patience I will know someday. Patience is not the best side of me. I¥m quite hot-tempered and impulsive and it took me a lot to just trust that voice inside me. Then I came here and shortly said: the veil ripped. God has many ways and we never know what way He uses to lead us to Him. Again I notice that Bible has a very simple message to us: "Just trust in me." Take your time and let that SDA theology burn away. If you even question Gods existence don¥t feel quilty. God is big enough and He tolerates it. He knows us, our inner pursuits and when time is right He will show you. You will be in my prayers Tuija | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 275 Registered: 7-2003 |
Jeannette, the doctor's name is Ted Noel and he is an anesthesiologist in Orlando. Here's his website: http://www.bibleonly.org/ Keep in mind that he still defends all the SDA distinctives such as, Saturday Sabbath observance, soul sleep, anniallationism, and the sanctuary message (minus the investigative judgement). As far as I can tell, his group is trying to preserve and defend Adventism as is, but deemphasize EGW. Chris | ||
| Mary_jane Registered user Username: Mary_jane Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2004 |
Tuija, Thank you so much. And you too, Colleen. This is not actually something that has recently happened. I've always been a "doubter", and I do have the assurance that it's not a grave sin -- all you have to do is look at Jesus with Thomas. Jesus said it is so much more blessed to NOT see Him and still believe. The "Blessed Hope". I understand that thought! Oh, yes, I've had since sixth grade in Adventist school to make sure I know the Bible...or at least their version of it. I'm not really as bad as you may think from what I said yesterday. I am a devout "realist" I pretty much know who I am, and so, don't expect more of myself than I know I am capable of. I don't have guilt trips too often. So the church can't really reach me that way. (Unfortunatly, that means I probably don't expect enough of myself.) I tend to take one day at a time and don't expect miracles to happen overnight. Not that they couldn't , but they probably won't. Leaving the SDA church has pretty much been years in the making. I've always pretty much considered Mrs. White a "nut case", but until I found websites on the internet and found out how many people agreed with me, and just how crazy she actually was, I thought I was pretty much alone with it. Oh, there are a few here and there, but I don't think any of them realize just how bad she was. I just don't know how ANYONE, today, with the information at their fingertips, can NOT know the truth of the matter!!! I guess some people just WANT to be used and abused! I do pretty much believe that "God" exists, but I do believe he appeared to different people in different ways in different places. I just can't believe that the other religions (Buddhist, Hindu, etc.) are all from the Devil. Even in Malachi you can get some idea of that, where God told the Jews to do something that He didn't really want them to do, hoping they'd realize that God wouldn't want them to do something that horrendous, and would question and study the situation. I do hope more Adventists wake up and see the truth, for themselves. I was in AZ when Mark Martin was pastor of the Central Phoenix church, and people said he resigned, so he could preach "the Gospel". I have always told people, Jesus said to preach "the Gospel message"-- NOT the "health message" or the "sabbath message" --- THE GOSPEL MESSAGE. I have always felt that was all that was important. But when you try to explain that to Adventists in authority, they always just smile and look pityingly at you like you are a confused child. It was so infuriating!! I understand your message about reading, and I do that as it is possible. One of those books is supposed to be on its way...at least my daughter requested one some time ago... Best wishes!! MJ | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 295 Registered: 1-2003 |
MJ. I can so identify with you and how you feel. I have seen it a lot. Didn't Canright say that the (and I am paraphrasing) SDA church made people into infidels. I am not calling you an infidel...I had to look that word up when I read it because I thought it meant something bad...but it just means that they become disillusioned by Ellen and the SDA chruch and give up and become unbelievers. I have seen this so much...most of the people I grew up with in grade school and academy have become infidels. My niece and her husband are the closest agnostics (athiests)to me. actually, I take that back, my father-in-law was once and SDA pastor and is now an athiest. It makes me sad but I know why they are...who could blame them. I desperately want her to believe in God. She tells me she tries to live in the moment and be the best person she can be to all and spread cheer and if there is some reward for this in the end, good. If not, oh well. As far as other world religions...Bhuddists are some of the best people on the planet. ( I love to do yoga by the way and was told by some people that I need to be careful not to get off into mysticism...but the World is the Lord's and everything in it...and yoga is a good thing and good things come from the Lord! So they can claim that all they want, I know the truth). As Colleen said, being good doesn't save you as I spent all those years in SDAism thinking it did. This sets you up for a lot of torment and grief in your life...I simply couldn't live as we were told to live. It was when I told God I was through with religion he was able to liberate me. And when the Son sets you free, you are free indeed! | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 277 Registered: 7-2003 |
I am starting to realize more and more everyday that if there is no object standard to measure ideas by, then every idea might be equally valid. Without a baseline agreement between two parties on how to measure validity, the conversation is merely based upon opinion with each opinion being equally valid and equally untestable. I have come to believe that there is very little point to debate if truth cannot be known. In discussions of faith, the most basic question that must be answered is, ìIs the Bible divine rather than human in origin?î If the Bible is merely human in origin then we must look elsewhere for a reliable object standard of ìtruthî. If the Bible is divine in origin, then it transcends the errant limitations of humanity and carries the authority of the creator of the universe. If the Bible comes from the one who created all, then we have a real standard for ìtruthî and a reliable description of who God is and what He is like. I believe the weight of evidence points to the Bible being divine in origin rather than human. Whole books have been written on each of the many evidences for the Bible, but allow me to just cite the major categories of evidence for the Bibleís Divine origin. I believe the Bible is proven to be divine based on the incredible manuscript evidence that has been so miraculous preserved for us, the ever growing archeological evidence, the evidence of fulfilled prophecy, the profound spiritual change that it produces in lives, and the remarkable internal consistency in a book written by 40 authors over a 1,600 period. No other book in the world comes close to matching *ALL* of these criteria. If indeed the evidence points to the Bible being divine, and I believe it does, then we can accept what it says on any given subject as being the words of God on that subject. Having confidence in the words of God goes a long way towards clearing up misperceptions about whom God is, how he deals with His creation, and what truth really is. We now have our object measure by which we can evaluate any premise or opinion. So for me, when I evaluate questions like, ìIs Jesus really the only way to God?î or ìWill some people really be eternally separated from God in a state of torment?î or ìIs it okay for Christians to participate in homosexual acts if they have this desire?î it all really comes down to just one question: ìDo I believe the Bible or not?î If I donít then Iím free to think anything I want on these issues, if I do then I need to find out what the Bible says on the matter and do my best to rightly interpret it. Once this is done I am then obligated to accept and follow what the Bible teaches. I say all this in the context of examining if all religions lead to God. If the Bible is not divine in origin then there is really no way to know if this is true or not. But if the Bible is the word of God, then we have a duty to do our best to find out what God says about who He is, how He deals with us, and the way He chose to bring salvation to the world. Itís worth examining because if the Bible is true, then the eternal destiny of every person depends upon personally knowing the Way of salvation Who is depicted in itís pages. Chris | ||
| Leigh Registered user Username: Leigh Post Number: 67 Registered: 2-2003 |
Jeannette, I think I may know of the Dr. you are speaking of. I went to college with his daughters. How long ago did you attend the sda church there in Orlando? leigh | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 160 Registered: 12-2003 |
Chris, thank you for your post. You are absolutely right: there is no use debating anything if there is no objective standard of truth. If we can't agree that the Bible is divine in origin, all other discussions are moot. I just started reading an excellent book, "The Divine Conspiracy" by Dallas Willard, an evangelical philosopher. His first chapter established the fact that with the demise of absolute truth, there is no standard upon which to base ethics and morality. The result is that ethics are relative and have no steadying effect on society. They are mainly ueful as discussion starters in college classrooms. People are beginning to decry the amoral (or even immoral) acts of society, but they can't really correct those problems because there is no bottom line standard on which to base social ethics. Willard cites a case where a girl in a colege ethics course was being persistently propositioned and insulted by a fellow class member because she had to work her way through school, and she had to clean his dorm room as part of her work assignment. This young man was getting an A in his ethics class, but he had not a shred of personal conviction that ethical or moral principles should govern his own behavior. I second what you said above, Chris, "If the Bible is the word of God, then we have a duty to do our best to find out what God says about who He is, how He deals with us, and the way He chose to bring salvation to the world. It's worh examining because if the Bible is true, then the eternal destiny of every person depends upon personally knowing the Way of salvation Who is depicted in its pages." Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 65 Registered: 10-2001 |
yep, Chris, that is him. Been corresponding with him for over a year, found out some time after I started typing with him that he goes to my mom's church. Winter Springs. Is that where you went? I grew up in Orlando, went to OJA 1st-9th, FLA 10th and Pisgah 11th and 12th, graduated in '86. Maybe we know eachother. I was a member there too. I find Ted to be very gracious and sincere. I don't tell my mom anything he says as they go to the same church, but he is definately one that is in my prayers. I didn't realize he had gone public with this yet. You might want to know that when we first started corresponding he just had some doubts about EGW. I see he has come a long way. Small world | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 66 Registered: 10-2001 |
Mary Jane, I went through a time where I didn't know if there was a God and I said if there were I had a lot of questions for Him! The only thing that changed that was my prayer to know truth. I just said, God, if everything I know is false then I want to know the truth, whatever it is." WOW! He sure delivered on that prayer! Just ask, He will reveal Himself to you. It is really that easy. Blessings to you, may the Spirit lead you in all truth! | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 273 Registered: 7-2003 |
you know, sometimes, even still, as I think of the struggles I've had over things that can't be seen or touched (so to say), I've wondered if God is really out there or if I'm just being duped into this religion stuff and ultimately wasting my time worrying about it. But then I look at the human body or some beauty in nature and just know there is no way that "evolved" out of the muck and the mire. Some level of doubt and questioning I think is normal and as long as we have strong footings and foundation of teachings, we should be able to accept those times for what they are. I know some people take the Romans passages that talk about being able to see God in nature to say that you can be saved somehow by nature, but I see that passage as saying the evidence of God is visible in nature, not that it can save you, but that a person without the law (in the context) can still know there is a God. I've learned not to be too hard on myself during those times and I come through them stronger. God really knows our heart and that's a great comfort. He knows if my questions are out of rebellion, frustration or just brokenness. That's a great relief. | ||
| Mary_jane Registered user Username: Mary_jane Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thank you, Sabra. I really go up and down with the issue. Part of me really wants there to be a God, and part of me asks "How can there be a God, who lets all these people do all these crazy things in the name of religion -- terrorism, mothers & fathers killing their children. I know it's Satan...but then...in the Old Testament He told the Israelites to kill off ALL the people of various cultures. He told Abraham to kill Isaac (stopping him in time, of course), and many other things that, if people do today they are considered mass-murders, ethnic cleansers, or just plain psychotic! It's all too confusing. I have to either figure that someday God will answer the questions, and all will be well in the end...or that there are no answers, and it won't help to obsess about them anyway, so I don't. It just doesn't do any religion any good to have terrorists running around killing other people in the name of "Allah", or the Waco people living like they did, or any of the other bizarre things people do in the name of God. It certainly hasn't done any good for the Catholic religion to have done what they did in the middle ages. It still doesn't help any religion's reputation when they persecute or ridicule people for their beliefs when they don't exactly coincide with theirs, or when they try to suck you into their church by devious means. Unfortunately, I happen to think religious organizations have done far, far more to hurt people in the history of this world than they have done to help them. Satan again, right? Sometimes, when I really do think seriously about it all...I just don't know what to think. So, usually, I just don't. Pathetic, isn't it? (Really, I'm not as depressed as I sound.) Best Wishes! MJ |
