| Author | Message | ||
| Lori |
Jude, You have such an ability to sift through all the details and uncover the lies, so they are fully exposed. My own way of dealing with the lies is to find the the simple doctrine about the subject as the Bible speaks about it. For this particular subject my defense is simple, (one reason is, I never fully understood the investigative judgement even as a 'born and raised in it Adventist') so----my 'weapon' for this particular error is Rev. 20: 11-15----we are never judged for our sins!!! If we are never judged according to our sins----then all this discussion about Investigative Judgement and when it takes place has no validity what so ever. Our sins were judged on the cross. And they will not be judged again!!!!! If we are to be judged again for sin, then it is true, Jesus died in vain------and if we can stand up under the judgement of our sins and be reckoned righteous, of our own doing, then the entire Bible is a lie and we never needed Christ in the first place. So in that respect what Satan said in the garden is true-----isn't it? We really can be like God!!! The SDA message is a doctrine of demons! | ||
| Lori |
Colleen, Where could I get a copy of the book that you mentioned, Encounter with Darkness? Lori | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Lori, Thanks for the affirmation. I feel a "fire in my bones" that is driving me in this direction. I certainly had no intention of doing this kind of work. But God has driven me through the mysterious process of closing and opening doors. If I didn't believe this was God's providence, I'd be in deep trouble. But I think he is leading and protecting me. But I think your way -- finding "the the simple doctrine about the subject as the Bible speaks about it" -- is absolutely the correct and "righteous" way. It is also the way I prefer and what led me to believe that Jesus Christ is all God sees when he looks at me in judgment, and that only because of my faith. I only engage in "error exposure" when I'm forced into doing it by people's questions or by rank and raw deceptions being perpetrated -- in Marcussen's case -- upon people whom Jesus loves by the millions! In all your wrestling with IJ/PAJ, did you ever notice how self-centered, egotistical, and paranoid it is? It is everything that Jesus wasn't. I sometimes wonder why it is that I could only see this "demonic" aspect after Christ's gospel opened my eyes! "How lovely are thy dwellings, O Yaweh, Lord of hosts," Jude | ||
| sally |
Hi Lori, I like your idea of just seeing what the Bible says to learn what the truth of a doctrine is. I have been wondering about what is the truth about the judgement. You mentioned Rev 20:11-15. It says in verse 12,And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and the books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. and verse 15 and if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. I get from this people will be judged by what they have done. Do you think this is just referring to the wicked? And the saved are not judged this way because their names will be in the book of life? I would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks, Sally | ||
| Lori |
Hi, Sally, This is one of the doctrines that really set me free!!!! Go back to the Discussion list and click on Once Saved, Always Saved, I, and others have posted comments about this particular scripture/doctrine. The one I post about this specific text was posted on Friday, March 31 @ 6:12pm. ---In short, the Greek word translated 'dead' refers to the spiritually dead---and they are judged for their works (deeds), not sins. Notice their is no reference at all to sins in these verses. The judge will be Christ and He has already been judged for all sins, not just for the sins of the saved, but for the sins of the lost as well. The same sin can not be judged twice! -- I think you will find the answers to your other questions in the same area. Hope this helps!!!! Lori | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Greatings to all, Just got another newsletter (dated "Mid April, Y2K") from "Pastor Jan" Marcussen, author of "National Sunday Law" that seems to be causing such elation in the upper eschelons of SDAism right now. In this newsletter is an item of particular interest.... A "letter to the editor" from one Pr. Moladaoh (name is a photoreproduced autograph scribbled over to obscure legibility -- this is the best I can make out). So without further ado, here's the letter: *********** Dear Pastor Marcussen, I am a SDA pastor, and a MA/PhD. {Christian - Muslim Relations} student from the University of Malawi, and Bugema University in Uganda. I began working as a conference pastor seven years ago. May God bless you for your last two newsletters, and the "National Sunday Law" books. Those books will be used by the 200 new lay evangelists and more than 200 souls in our coming evangelistic campaigns. Please continue to send me your newsletters. I have learned that our conference president is a Jesuit who attends the "black mass." He is working to downsize and close our small SDA schools and dispensaries. He encourages the pastors to baptize people prematurely, [thus filling the churches with unconverted people, like has been happening in America through evangelistic meetings which don't really convert or ground many of the people like they did in Sister White's day. These things are to weaken and corrupt the churches in preparation for Rome's greater attack soon. And he is working in organizing new, "celebration" type churches to be filled with these half converted ones. Most church members would never believe that Rome has any influence in these things, nevertheless, God is in total control, and we are of good courage in Him. I counteract the evil by going right on in the joy of the Lord] I am conducting Adventist-Muslim evangelistic campaigns in Tanzania, Uganda, Kenya, and Malawi. For this, I am training people in lay-evangelistic courses. I am researching how Muslims are involved in the movements of New Age and especially the Sunday law. My wife sends her greetings to your wife Sweet Vennita. Here is a little report of how God has been blessing in the evangelistic efforts. In the past 7 years, we have baptized 1020. One third of these are Muslims. May God be praised. In the same period, He has helped me to train 772 SDA church members to be lay evangelists. In the coming months, I plan, with God's help, to conduct Muslim dominated evangelistic campaigns along the coastal towns of South Africa, Mozambique, Kenya, Tanzania, Nigeria, and Ghana. Please send me as many "National Sunday Law" books as you can! Yours in Christ, Pr. Moladaoh *********** If you're interested in subscribing to this free newsletter, you may contact: Pastor Jan Marcussen, P.O. Box 68, Thompsonville, IL 62890. Phone 618.627.2357. Fax 618.627.2522. http://www.hcis.net/organizations/churches/amazingtruth | ||
| Colleentinker |
Lori, the book Encounter with Darkness by John A. MacMillan is published by Christian Publications, Inc. 25 S. 10th Street, P.O. Box 3404, Harrisburg, PA 17105. I believe it is a Christian Missionary Alliance publication. It is a wonderful booklet, and apparently it has been used as a handbook for many evangelical churches for training pastors, etc. I strongly recommend it. I read a sentence in this book yesterday that made me catch my breath because it expalined so clearly a feeling I used to have most of the time when I was an Adventist: "The devil is a murderer (John 8:44), and those under his dominion live ever in the dread of the unknown." Doesn't that address much of the angst many of us grew up with? We weren't "just" neruotic; we were in an organization which taught "doctrines of demons", and we were oppressed by the deceiver who shaped those doctrines and claimed that church. MacMillan also says that "the unreasonable pressure of fear" is also from satan. I pray that God will protect us all from deception and will give us his discernment and confidence in his Word and Truth. Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Colleen, That sentence was so true. George says that it is how he felt when he was a kid in the SDA Church and as an adult, fear plagued him constantly. What is frustrating is that when you talk to an SDA, they claim to be looking forward to the end and that they have NO fear. Mom is so into the study of Revelation and says she used to be afraid and didn't understand it. But now, ahhh, it's sooo wonderful, it reveals Jesus so well and there is nothing to be afraid of. Mom demonstrates more fears than anyone I know. It is so sad, especially when you live with it every single day. Would it be a fair statement to say that the more we talk about the devil the more power we give him? Comments on this last statement/question please. Maryann | ||
| Steve Pitcher |
Wow! I really needed that thought regarding the "Unreasonable pressure of fear", thanks Colleen. The belief that I'll be taking on the mark of the beast has been put forward to me. Of course, I personally reject that as completely non-Biblical. There's no scripture to support it at all. The only reason that that has been used against me, as far as I can see, is to cause me to FEAR something that is not real. I now realize that many of the tactics used against me recently, INCLUDING THE SDA CHURCH SOUNDING VERY EVANGELICAL in (only) a few sermons recently, are just empty words, bereft of meaning. It was the SDA church that taught me that the Anti-Christ will deceive so many because he will sound so Christian. Guess what?! The SDA church fulfills it's own prophecy about the anti-Christ. It can sound so evangelical, but it's purpose is to replace the Gospel with Law, rather than use the Law to lead to the Gospel. We really do wrestle against powers of the air. Regarding Maryann's comment: I don't think that we give Satan more power by talking about him. An obsession IS a problem, and may give him more power over the one obsessed. But talking about him as a totally defeated enemy of God and humankind is to rightfully remind others and ourselves of the great victory of Christ on the cross. May we always continue to be victorious in Christ who already won the GREAT CONTROVERSY nearly 2000 years ago. In Him, Steve | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Dear Maryann, First, I want to thank you for: 1. Being so lively on this forum. Your command -- and I say this as a career journalist -- of the language (I'm not talking "small stuff" like grammer or spelling, but "big stuff," such as metaphorical ability) is so good and flexible that you're literally fun to read. 2. Asking the most "itchy" questions. This, I suspect, is as much "bating" as it is "needing," but that's off the subject. What's on it is that with this strategy you're drawing out more and more readers and making them into contributors. Your engaging of "Plain Patti," for example, is like netting one of the fastest and most shimmeringly graceful fishes in the sea. For, didn't Jesus say, "I will make you fishers of [wo]men?" And so, after thanking you, off to your question: Do I think that the more we talk about the devil the more power we give him? My answer: No. That's "cultish" or "magical" thinking. It's like trying to control him by what we think, say, or do. "Christian voodoo" is a no-no. And some people with a propensity or inclination toward "cultish" or "magical" voodoo thinking even try to so control God. For example, like: "The more I pray and read my Bible the more likely God is to smite my enemies, heh, heh." Dangerous ground. Just remember: God is NEVER mocked, and "cultish" or "magical" or "voodoo" thinking is just too close to "controling" or "manipulative" reasoning for comfort, let alone genuine spirituality. And so, back to the devil: Let's pose two scenarios: SCENARIO ONE: "I'm not going to talk about him." That's too close to saying, "I'm not going to think about chartreuse [brilliant yellow-green] dinosaurs with teenage mutant ninja turtles riding on their backs. From that point on it's nearly impossible NOT to think about "chartreuse dinosaurs with teenage mutant ninja turtles riding on their backs." This is the "negation" theory. And it works exactly the same with the devil. After all, isn't it fun to gather in a circle and "shiver in the dark" about "how awful" that "hideous being" is? But why manufacture temptation where none before existed and dangle it in front of our noses like a chain of aromatic Polish sausages? SCENARIO TWO: "I'm going to talk about God instead, in order to keep from talking about the devil." This is the "displacement" theory: "I'll fill my head with thoughts of God and thus displace thoughts of the devil." Bzzzzt! Wrong answer. This is just as much mind manipulation as the "negation" theory is. And it produces just as much frustration -- it makes thinking/talking about God un-fun and more than "a bit of a drag." In my opinion neither theory works. And that's a real good thing, because it leads us to the real point of this exercise: Not going right back to trying to be in control of our own lives, rather than submitting to God's control. This is nothing more than salvation by our own works, legalism, all over again. FIRST PART OF SOLUTION: Follow Scripture (2 Timothy 3:14-17 NIV): Continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy [Timothy was taught Scripture, in this case the Old Testament, by his mother and grandmother from before the age of five] you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the [wo]man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." Don't worry about "talking/thinking about" or "not talking/thinking about" the devil. Instead, read, think, and talk about what's in Scripture. For there you will find Jesus Christ, who is by far the best revelation of God. But "following Scripture" in and of itself isn't good enough. SECOND PART OF SOLUTION: Here's why not: Jesus leveled some pretty straight talk against the Jews who were muttering murderously about him for breaking the Sabbath (John 5:36-40 NIV) and "presuming" to be God on earth (Immanuel): "The very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. YOU DILIGENTLY STUDY the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify of me, YET YOU REFUSE to come to me to have life." Jesus is talking about "power love," better far than the "tough love" you've heard so much about: And in effect he is telling us, If you're using the Scriptures to have something to talk about -- for instance, to avoid talking about the devil -- you're misusing and abusing Scripture. The ONLY reason for using Scripture, BOTH Testaments, is to view and review the record there of the Christ event -- both in the foretelling (OT) and in the flesh-and-blood witnessing (NT) -- and to come to him "for life." So, more specifically: Find Jesus in the Bible and do what HE SAYS is right, rather than what YOU THINK is right. Then you won't have to employ mental gymnastics in order to beat the devil. For there you will learn all over again that the devil is a crushed enemy: Jesus has defeated him on the cross. And when that craven dude, crafty though he may still be, comes to you he will meet such resistance -- because you are "in Christ" and Christ is "in you" -- that he will flee for his very life; he hates and fears Christ, you know. (For this particular thrill, read the first few chapters of Mark's gospel.) Okay, so it sounds impossible. It's tough to "let go and let God," isn't it? But consider: Jesus' disciples watched a "young man of great wealth" melt quickly away in the crowds because Jesus had told him, "Go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." "The disciples ... were greatly astonished and asked, 'Who then can be saved?'" "Jesus looked at them and said, 'With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.' "Peter answered him, 'We have left everything to follow you? What then will there be for us?' "Jesus said to them, 'I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.'" Matthew 19:21-30 NIV. Go in peace, beloved of God, you who have left everything to follow Jesus, Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Jude, Thank you for the encouragement and compliment. (I had to put ice on my head to bring the swelling down). Now: I will chew on your above post and get back to you on it. Would you put in your .01 cent worth on the two post I did on the state of the dead, you know, expand it a little to Colleens great post. I don't always post "my" opinions. I sometimes post questions as if they were mine. I like doing that as it gets the needed responses like what you and Colleen have just done. You're right I like "itchy" questions, sometimes I get really discouraged when they don't get a response. I'm not sure what you ment by, "This, I suspect, is as much "batting" as it is "needing," ? There are a couple other "weekend" post I made that I would have liked your feed back on too. I really hate posting on the weekend. Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Greetings, Maryann, again, What I meant by, "This, I suspect, is as much "bating" as it is "needing," is pretty close to, "I don't always post 'my' opinions. I sometimes post questions as if they were mine. I like doing that as it gets the needed responses like what you and Colleen have just done. You're right I like "itchy" questions, sometimes I get really discouraged when they don't get a response." So you got it right. So don't put too much ice on your head. Got a chuckle out of your ".01 cent worth" remark, for .01 cent = one hundredth of a cent! Which goes to show just how much you think MY opinions are worth! Sob. Grrrrr! <:=( Just kidding! Don't have time to say much more right now, because I'm snail-mailing my lovely daughter. Wish you could have met her when she was here. She stayed at the Tinkers, and loved them. Who could do otherwise, they're such nice people! Well, more later. Vaya con Dios, Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hey Jude again, Oops, I miss-copied "batting" for "bating", there goes "all" my brownie points. Oh well :-( Well, I done did some chewing and have a response. Let me slightly re-phrase the question. If we talk about the devil all the time (sort of a focal point), do we then give him more power over us? Your 2 cents (heh heh heh) was great (as usual and expected). BUT, you missed my point or maybe I missed my point. So, point! Years ago when the big name preachers were dropping like flies, there were a lot of "why's" going around. Someone came up with an un-official opinion that the reason for the flies dropping was that they were constantly exposed to the honey. Well, that makes sense to me. You have your head under water long enough and you will eventually take a few gulps of water and drown. Hard fact. Okay, now, ifn you have a "thing" about dwelling on the devil and ifn you are focusing your fears on him, my little "pointed" reasoning says that, "By beholding, we become changed" ??? Now ifn we have all this fear (we were all raised in FEAR!), what were we dwelling on? So, who's power were we under? Sooooooo, dwelling on the devil DOES give him more power over us. It (devil=fear), weakens our very beings, compromises our intelligence, raises our resistance to the Holy Spirit and all the while deceives us into believing we are believing the truth. We aught not rent any more space to the devil than to keep us well aware that he is alive and well. That's my opinion :-) Suppose if I quit dwelling on my "spehlling" and "grahmmer", it will get better? :-( Maryann...with the wore out dictionary | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
All right, Maryann, You do have a point. But I still say, Don't worry about avoiding devil-focus. Remember what Paul has to say about people who said to avoid beef and pork and mutton offered to idols: Doesn't matter, since there aren't any other gods anyhow. So if somebody eats those meats, leave him alone: He eats to God -- and not you! And if some "weak person" (sorry, Richard) "eats only vegetables," leave him alone too, for he eats unto God too -- and not you! So, if Paul was moved by the Holy Spirit to say, "Hey, don't worry about those demons, for there is only one true God," I can say, "Hey, don't worry about the devil," for there is still only one true God. Make sense? Jude | ||
| Maryann |
All right Yourself, You gota good point too. Sometimes these points DO make a difference to some people in their particular walks of life. I really think it is good to look at things in a way that can accommodate people where they may be at a particular time in their walk or life. Doesn't hurt to stretch our minds to their wave lengths. Now, to something VERY serious. If you don't be very careful around "Richard the Lion Hearted" as you so "interestingly" named him, he may change his "weak vegetable taste" to the "carnivorous taste" he was created to have. In other words, if he GROWLS, run for your life! Hah hah hah! :-) Maryann | ||
| Susan |
Here's my 2 cents worth. I think we need to know scripture inside and out. Always praying that the Holy Spirit will lead us in truth. It's like those who study counterfit money. They examine the real thing so thoroughly that they will automatically know when they are holding a "lie" or a counterfit. I don't mean to say that we shouldn't talk about or think about the ways of Satan our adversary. On the contrary, I think it's very wise to know what we're up against. For a great read on this check out C.S. Lewis' "Screwtape Letters". But I think when we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit and studying the scriptures we will tune in much more easily to the things of Satan. I know for me that things of Satan send up "red flags" much more now than before I was a Christian. Colleen put it beautifully on a recent post (? forgot where), that when we are Christians we tap into to the ways of God. His ways and understanding become clearer. (Hope I'm repeating her point correctly, please correct me Colleen if I'm wrong!) Anyway, I think that if we're God's children then we have no need to fear. Jesus Christ has already won! This is something that I've been reflecting on during this season of Lent. This Holy week I've not only been contemplating the incredible costs to God on calvary but also the victory that IS His, and as believers we share in that power and victory. I leave you with this wonderful verse, "I have not stopped giving thanks to God for you. I remember you in my prayers and ask the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, to give you the Spirit, who will make you wise and reveal God to you, so that you will know him. I ask that your minds may be opened to see his light, so that you will know what is the hope to which he has called you, how rich are the wonderful blessings he promises his people, and how very great is his power at work in us who believe. This power working in us is the SAME as the mighty strength which he used when he raised Christ from death and seated him at his right side in the heavenly world. Christ rules there above all heavenly rulers, authorities, powers, and lords; he has a title superior to all titles of authority in this world and in the next. God put ALL things under Christ's feet and gave him to the church as supreme Lord over all things. The church is Christ's body, the completion of him who himself completes all things everywhere" Eph.1:16-23 Good News Bible (emphasis mine). This is my prayer today for all my FAF brothers and sisters, IN CHRIST ALONE, Susan | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Susan, Here's my .0001 cents worth. The counterfeit money is a good illustration and is used often, even in non-religious settings. Somehow, we as SDAs, were stuck in the mode of not EVER picking up something other than SDA (authorized) material. You might say, well, SDAs had EGW, so that took them out of the will of God and they were in fact studying counterfeit. I would agree, but still, they/we thought we were ONLY studying the real MacCoy (sp?)? Were you given the opportunity to even pick up a C.S. Lewis or Spurgeon book as a kid? That WAS THE counterfeit! or so we were taught! Now, you take the Oneness Penticostals (UPC), they have the KJ Bible and the KJ Bible only. They have a lot of religious pride in the fact that they have the Bible only. You see, they can NOT be studying the counterfeit because they ONLY have the Bible? So, somehow, the thought of never picking up counterfeit doesn't agree with me. We had to pick up "counterfeit" to get where we are now, didn't we? Thank God for the "counterfeit" we now know as the GOSPEL! Comments please :-( Maryann | ||
| Susan |
Maryann, sorry if I wasn't clear with my dollar bill illustration. My point was, if we diligently study scripture and pray for God's guidance than the evil one can't deceive us. We will be so tuned in to Truth that counterfit gospels will pop out at us. Does that help a little? I didn't mean we should never read other materials. (A book on EGW by Maurice Bennett(sp?)helped me make my exit from adventism!) The important thing is to know the scriptures SO well that when we pick up something contrary to the Truth of God, it will be as clear as crystal! We are instructed by God to judge all teaching in light of scripture and discard anything that doesn't line up. Blessings! | ||
| Ann L. |
Here's my 2cents. I believe that when people depend on the church, the pastor, or others in general, too much to teach them what the bible teaches, they most often get misled or confused. That is the whole reason why God sent his Holy Spirit. We no longer need a "Moses" to tell us what God says, we can approach God ourselves. His Holy Spirit teaches us "the truth" about the Gospel. Why is it that sometimes we don't trust the Spirit? I believe that is where people become influenced by "different gospels." They don't know the bible enough for themselves to decipher what is true from what is false. We really need to stay in the Word, because there is power in the Word. The Word is exactly what Jesus used to overcome Satan, and we need the Word also to overcome the powers of evil and "different gospels." By the way, did anyone comment on my last post? I kinda have to play catch-up. If not, comments please. | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi All: I will try to fire up this thread also. In a recent Catholic church newsletter, it stated, "Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century [actually it happened in the fourth century]. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The day of the Lord" [Dies Domini] was chosen, not from any direction noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power .... People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become [Seventh-day] Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." Saint Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995. What do ya think Ken |
