| Author | Message | ||
| Valm |
Max, It is all very great and inspirational reading. Is there scripture to support Sproul's proposal that our reward in heaven will be distributed according to our obedience on earth? To me I do because of my response to God's love and Spirit within me. I am somewhat uncomfortable with having a carrot dangled in front of me. Valerie | ||
| Max |
Hi Valerie, Sproul said, "I get into heaven by Jesus' righteousness, but my reward in heaven will be distributed according to my obedience or the lack of it." But he's going to have to speak for himself. I'm not sure what he means exactly. Also, I'm very leery of Ellen White's emphasis on "so much punishment for so much sin" and "so much reward for so much righteousness." It seems to be wrong, for it seems to contradict Christ's parable of the vineyard workers: NIV Matthew 20: 1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard. 3 "About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, `You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5 So they went. "He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6 About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, `Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?' 7 "`Because no one has hired us,' they answered. "He said to them, `You also go and work in my vineyard.' 8 "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, `Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.' 9 "The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 `These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, `and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.' 13 "But he answered one of them, `Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?' 16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last." What do you think, Valerie? Blessings always, Max | ||
| Valm |
The parable above came immediately to my mind whe I read what you quoted from Sproul. And I did not think there would be scriptural support for Sproul's premise. The rest of what you quoted from him, however, was very thought provoking and worth consideration. I come to the conclusion that we aren't all going to agree all the time, but we give each other much to think about and a catharsis for reevaluation. Also I would like to verbally remind myself that these things you quote are written for discussion and may not be what you think. They do give plenty to talk about though. I conclude that I am flourishing under Christ's GRACE. I can not imagine going to heaven without healing. I do not think I have strong scriptural support for the later but my logic and intuition both tell me that it does not make sense to give us salvation without healing the messed up state humanity is in. The best I can come up with on scriptural support is Jesus saying that he came that we might have LIFE and have it more abundantly. Valerie. | ||
| Max |
Think about the healings of Christ and what they mean spiritually for us. | ||
| Max |
THE ONLY TRUE RELATIONSHIP WE CAN HAVE WITH CHRIST IS TO FOLLOW HIM Christianity without the living Christ is inevitably Christianity without discipleship, and Christianity without discipleship is always Christianity without Christ. It remains an abstract idea, a myth which has a place for the Fatherhood of God, but omits Christ as the living Son. And a Christianity of that kind is nothing more or less than the end of discipleship. In such a religioin there is trust in God, but no following of Christ. Because the Son of God became Man, because he is the Mediator, for that reason alone the only true relation we can have with him is to follow him. --Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.59. | ||
| Darrell |
Here are a couple of scriptures which may support Sproul's view of the rewards given to the saved: 1 Cor 3:6-15 "I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward ACCORDING TO HIS OWN LABOR. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. each man must be careful how he builds on it. For According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation , and another is building on it. But no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, HE WILL RECEIVE A REWARD. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." 2 Cor 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, ACCORDING TO WHAT HE HAS DONE, whether good or bad." I can't say I know how to balance these verses with Jesus' parable of the workers in the vineyard. Perhaps the reward all receive equally in the parable is eternal life with Jesus, while there is some additional reward based on our service to God? One thing to keep in mind when thinking about this, is that Jesus many times said, "The first shall be last, and the last shall be first." So our idea of who might deserve a greater reward is sure to be turned on its head! | ||
| Max |
HOW TO BE SURE JESUS WILL REJECT YOU Discipleship without Jesus Christ is a way of our own choosing [rather than His for us]. It may be the ideal way. It may even lead to martyrdom, but it is devoid of all promise. Jesus will certainly reject it. --Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.59. Bohnoeffer published this statement in 1937 when "Christian" Hitler was enjoying the height of his sway over the "Christian" German people. In 1944 Bonhoeffer was tortured and murdered by Hitler who had imprisoned him largely because of publishing Cost of Discipleship. There was no trial. A posthumous trial in post-war, post-Nazi Germany exonorated him. --Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Excellent post, Darrell, Especially appreciated is the unassuming and refreshing way God leads you to present Scripture. Enjoyed so much seeing and worshipping with you and your lovely wife again over the holidays. --MC | ||
| Max |
OUR CALLING COMPARED TO THE CALLING OF THE 12 It is an extremely hazardous procedure to distinguish between a situation where faith is possible and one where it is not. We must FIRST realize that there is nothing in the situation to tell us to which category it belongs. It is ONLY THE CALL of Jesus which makes it a situation where faith is possible. SECONDLY, a situation where faith is possible can never be demonstrated form the human side. Discipleship is not an offer man makes to Christ. It is ONLY THE CALL which creates the situation. THIRDLY, this situation never possesses any intrinsic worth or merit of its own. It is ONLY THROUGH THE CALL that it receives its justificaiton. LAST, but not least, the situation in which faith is possible is itself ONLY RENDERED POSSIBLE THROUGH FAITH. --Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.63. In contemplating the above passage, remember that 1. Christ CALLED Judas but not many others who turned out to be among the 500 who were saved. 2. Christ CALLED Peter, Matthew and others who expressed no desire to be called, yet who immediately left their fishing and tax businesses to follow Him. IMMEDIACY was the key. 3. Christ CALLED one who requested permission to bury his father first. Though this unnamed man did not become one of the 12, Christ did not reject him, but said, "Go thou and publish abroad the kingdom of God." IMMEDIACY was the key. 4. Christ DID NOT CALL another who said, "I will follow thee, Lord; but suffer me first to bid farewell to them that are in my house." He merely observed that such a one is not fit for the kingdom of God. IMMEDIACY was the key. 5. In EVERY CASE of calling, according to the strict wording of the text, obedience PRECEDED faith! 6. In every case THE CALL of Christ set the man free from bondage to the world and ENABLED him to make THE CHOICE of obedience. --Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
ONLY THE OBEDIENT BELIEVE. If we are to believe, we must obey a concrete command. Wiothout thie preliminary step of obedience, our faith will only be pious humbug, and lead us to the grace which is not costly. Everything depends on the fist step. It has a unique quality of its own. The first step of obedience makes Peter leave his nets, and later gets out of the ship [to walk on water at Christ's invitation]; it calls upon the [rich young ruler] to leave his riches. Only this new existence, created through obedience, can make faith possible. --Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.64. | ||
| Max |
UNREAL FAITH ACCORDING TO BONHOEFFER Faith is only real when there is obedience, never without it, and faith only becomes faith in the act of obedience. --Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.64. | ||
| Max |
C ” THRIVES ON CHEAP GRACE When people complain ... that they find it hard to believe, it is a sign of deliberate or unconscious DISOBEDIENCE. It is all too easy [for the pastor] to put them off by offering the REMEDY OF CHEAP GRACE. That only leaves the disease as bad as it was before, and makes the word of grace a sort of self-administerred consolation, or a self-imparted absolution. But when this happens, the poor man can no longer find any comfort in the words of priestly absolution -- he has become deaf to the Word of God. And EVEN IF HE ABSOLVES HIMSELF FROM HIS SINS A THOUSAND TIMES, HE HAS LOST ALL CAPACITY OF FAITH IN THE TRUE FORGIVENESS, just because he has never really known it. UNBELIEF THRIVES ON CHEAP GRACE, for it is determined to persist in disobedience. Clergy frequently come across cases like this nowadays. The outcome is usually that self-imparted absolution confirms the man in his disobedience, and makes him plead ignorance of the kindness as well as of the commandment of God. He complains that God's commandment is uncertain, and susceptible of different interpretations. At first he was aware enough of his disobedience, but with his increasing hardness of heart that awareness grows ever fainter, and in the end he becomes so enmeshed that he loses all capacity for hearing the Word, and FAITH IS QUITE IMPOSSIBLE. --Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.68-69. My response: Cheap grace produces "dead faith" (James 2:14-17), whereas costly grace produces a living faith, a faith that is "not alone" (Luther), a faith that works the good works of love. --Max of the Cross | ||
| Valm |
Darrell, That brings memories of singing the tune "Will there be many stars in your crown?" Do you remember that one? Well there is scripture to back it. I too wonder what reward means. In this materialistic life we are in my mind ultimately jumps to a bigger mansion with a better view. But I also know that on this planet, I would be much happier if I lived in a shack on a third world island most of the time. Perhaps those rewards spoke of in the Bible are more intrinsic. Won't it be interesting to find out? I like my material stuff, but the greatest rewards I receive presently is the kiss from my chidren, the warmth of their eyes. Holding them as they fall asleep. The greeting from my husband when he comes home. Finding out that my interactions in my carreer made a difference in someones life. The smell of my children when they come in from playing outside on a windy day. The sun beating down on my face on a cold day. The wind on my cheeks when sailing. Floating in salt water and watching the fish go by. The smile of a stranger. The unexpected suprise on someones face when I do something nice. Oh, I could go on. I am feeling like Julie Andrews singing raindrops and roses...... Rewards come in may wonderful packages don't they? Valerie | ||
| Max |
"Peter has to get out of the ship [to walk on water] before he can believe." --Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.70 | ||
| Max |
ONLY THOSE WHO OBEY CAN BELIEVE Our [confessing] sinner has drugged himself with cheap and easy grace by accepting the proposition that only those who believe can obey. He persists in disobedience and seeks consolation by absolving himself. This only serves to deaden his ears to the Word of God. We [pastors] cannot breach the fortress so long as we merely repeat the proposition which affords him his self-defense. So we must make for the turning pont without further ado, and exhort him to obedience -- "Only those who obey can believe." --Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.70 | ||
| Max |
"ONLY THOSE WHO OBEY CAN BELIEVE" Will [saying] that lead [the cheap-gracer] astray, and encourage him to trust in his own works? Far from it. He will the more easily realize that his faith is no genuine one at all. that his faith is no genuine one at all. He will be rescued from his entanglement by being compelled to come to a definite decision. In this way his ears are opened once more for the call of Jesus to faith and discipleship." --Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.70. | ||
| Max |
"Cheap grace ... is another word for damnation." --Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.70. | ||
| Max |
Cheap grace ... is another word for damnation" was published in 1937 at the height of "cheap grace" Nazi power and influence over the "cheap grace" Christian citizens of Germany. Could one say that Bonhoeffer's pronouncement at the time was prophetic? Was the destruction of the "cheap grace" Third Reich by Allied forces the fulfillment of the prophecy? Is so-called "Christian" America today threatened by the same "cheap grace" Christianity? Is concern that this might indeed be the case the reason for the great revival of interest in Bonhoeffer and his writings in America today? Questions meant for your prayerful contemplation.... --Max of the Cross | ||
| Shereen |
I guess I haven't ever considered rewards in heaven. I will just be so surprised and overjoyed to actually make it to heaven. Material things to me, like you Valerie, don't mean much. Like you, the sound of my children laughing, the way they get so happy to see me at the end of a work day or in the morning when they hate to see me leave for work. My husband when he emails me from work to let me know he is thinking of me. To see the happy but scared look in my sons eyes when I volunteer to help at a school function. When or if I get to heaven, that is all that matters. I find myself doing "works" here on earth but not because I feel I need to. I want to. It is like God is letting me help Him in some of His work. What a priviledge it is to help. What a wonderful reward it is to know that He loves me enough to let me help. My 18 month old loves to do dishes. It would be so much easier, cleaner and faster for me to do the dishes myself. I love Julia so much and get such a kick out of the job she does. She doesn't do the dishes because it is expected of her, no, she does them because she really wants to help. I want to help God. I don't do it because I am looking for rewards, no, I am doing it because it just feels right. Sorry I can't get my ideas in my head across on paper very well. It all sounds so much better in my head. Well, I do try. I wish we could all have these discussions face to face - so much easier to communicate that way. Shereen | ||
| Max |
Shereen, Do you realize that you've ALREADY made it into heaven? Do you realize that the rewards you have just described ARE the rewards that you are enjoying right now? Hear our Lord: NIV Luke 17:20-21: "Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, 'The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, "Here it is," or "There it is," because the kingdom of God is within you.'" In the Greek the "you" ("humone") here is plural, meaning that the kingdom of God (or heaven) is not only within each individual but also "among individuals" or "within all believers" or "in the church." There is only one kingdom of heaven, not two. Sometimes it is called, "the now and future kingdom." For this reason only those who are ALREADY citizens of the kingdom of heaven ìwill be caught up together with [their resurrected loved ones] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the airî to ìbe with the Lord foreverî (NIV 1 Thessalonians 4:17). Max of the Cross |
