| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore |
QUESTION: ^^Would this be a sound Biblical statement?: Our charater, our changed life, the fruits of the Spirit that the Spirit demonstrates though us in our obedience to the promptings of the Spirit; demonstrate to those around us, CREDENCE to the fact that our Savior provided for us, SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE.^^ >>The job of being Good Shepherd is too big for you. Jesus is not your example in all things. You are not the Good Shepherd. Let Him be the Good Shepherd. You are the His sheep. Be content with that. For there are green pastures and lucid brooks and other sheep to rub fleeces with. Jesus says,<< Okay, I have put up the original question, you have seen my posts and comments and I have put up a quote from Max regarding me judging others or others judging me. In light of all this, the original statement made was then made by someone who thinks he/she is 'The Good Shepherd', or that any of us can be. Because the 'those around us', in the original statement, are other Christians and NON Christians, who judge us and we judge them. The original statement is saying that by what we see, we so judge. Or by what others see, they so judge. If it is not saying that, then what is it saying? It is certainly NOT saying, don't worry about what you see in others. It is NOT saying, don't even think that we can tell if a person is Christian or not. It is NOT saying that by thinking this way, we think we are the 'Good Shepherd.' In fact, it is saying, that because we see these things i.e. such as fruits of the spirit et al, we have been given, or it has been demostrated to us, 'Credence' to the fact that there is the 'Salvation by Grace Alone', in that or those particular person/s. So, my judgement must come from some place. Is it through a dream, no. Is it through gossip, no. It is through what I witness in other people. Do other people judge me according to a dream, or gossip? I don't know. But I'm hoping that they, if they are judging, are judging me by that which would constitute a Christian attitude=love. And even in that arena, I don't always show love. If we were to take the original question and change all the 'our' and change it to 'their', i.e. "Their character, their changed life, the fruits of the Spirit that the Spirit demonstrates through them in their obedience to the promptings of the Holy Spirit; demonstrate to us around them credence to the fact that our Saviour provided for them, SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE." Does that make us feel easier about judging? I know that when I see these things in others, I certainly think positive things of that person. In fact, I go so far as most times I will think them to be a Christian. Which of course is not always the case. So, I am not trying to be 'the Good Shepherd' by saying or speaking of what I see. I can only go by what I see. But, does what I see, mean it is truth? Not always so. I could be seeing them with a 'fragile ego' or I could be seeing them on a day in which I seem to hate the world, or a day where love abounds in me. So it does depend on our attitude and where we are coming from as to what we see. You and I Max, could be sitting in the same room, listening to the same thing, from the same person, and each of us could have a completely different take on who or what that person is. To say that we don't think things about others is not necessarily truth. To say that we don't judge others is not always truth and sometimes it is not wise to NOT judge. This debate is a tough one for me as I struggle to portray in print, what is in my mind and heart. This is a challenge for me to say the least. Now for you Max, this is pure simpleton stuff. For me, it's complicated. But I will give you credit in the ego part of me. I do get my feelings hurt by other Christians, I do care, most of the time what they think of me, and I do know, and this is my comfort, that it is Jesus that I want to please more than people. It is He that judges me in a way that really matters to me. But I live around people. And I probably do have an unhealthy ego, as you put it. But then again, maybe it's not unhealthy so much as it is truth that I see. My truth anyhow. Does that make it truth? Not necessarily. Our human opinions are relative in matters of judgement. It is God Himself that possess ALL Truth and Divine Judgement. We can only surmise, each from our own points of view. I can only pray for more healing from our Lord as I still see most Christians, judging me by their self righteous standards, their doctrines taught of men, their traditions. This does hurt. If it didn't hurt me, then I would be a hardened person. I used to be a hardened person but now I have a heart that is flesh and it gets wounded from time to time. Does this defeat me? No. Does this stop me? No. Does this push me to back down? No. I keep on keeping on and pray for wisdom that I still lack. God Bless you always my brother, I'll miss you guys tonight but will be there next week. Looking forward to more learning. And thank you Max. You have made me think..this is a good thing! :)) Blessings on your head, your sister in Christ our Lord, DtB | ||
| Denisegilmore |
And to you Maryann, Where are you since it was you yourself that asked the original question? Is anything of benefit coming from this conversation for you Maryann? Need input from you too ya know. :) Enjoy tonight and God Bless you, DtB, your sister in Christ Jesus | ||
| Denisegilmore |
And another thing Maryann, What's this? >> Lydell, Patti, Rayna, Max (ladies first;-), if y'all don't agree, PLEASE, let's discuss it. IBC....:):) << What am I?? chopped liver.......:(( I luv ya sista, DtB | ||
| Maryann |
He he he he, you are not chopped liver!;-)) Your name was first, you just can't see it 'cause there's a veil over your eyes! Zzzzzzzzzzz Also, I went to the meeting for a few minutes tonight mostly to give Stanley some Medical info. Then came home to nurse the flu.....yuk! I missed Coco's too:,,,-(( | ||
| Maryann |
Hi All, I would like to use the above as a perfect example of how two wonderful Christians deal with different points of view!!!!! Tough love, would be away to describe it;-)) Tough comments and strong feelings have been stated. Yet, through it all, both Max and Denise respect and honor each other! If we were all to be as honoring as they just demonstrated, there would be fewer feelings hurt on this board. Thank you both for being a Christian witness to "love one another!;-))" :):):).....IBC | ||
| Denisegilmore |
AHHHHHHH....Now you have this flu? I'm just getting over it and it's a bugger. Took me almost a month. I went to one meeting of FAF and thought I was just feeling that way due to stress or something, then it really it me. That was my last meeting. I miss Cocos too..:(( So, now that we know I'm not chopped liver, I feel much better. Although my name is NOT first..look at the quote I quoted..:( <chuckle> So what is your answer to that original question that YOU posed???? Huh? I want to hear your thought on if it is sound and Biblical to you. By the way, did I make sense in my response to you? Also, why on earth did you get me involved in this mess,,,,NOW LOOK! I've really got to get my hard hat out now..hehehehe Oh, how fun though. Something on a Friday night to put a little spunk in us. How are the children? Give them a hello from me and tell Tom to be prepared next week for a contest on the scooter..<snicker>..I'm really feeling some spunk tonight eh? God Bless you all, your sister always in Christ Jesus, DtB | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Max, Are you back yet??? If so, did you see Maryann say that I have a VEIL over my eyes?! Ha! Now Maryann, I dun went and tole on ya!...snicker..:) Better get out your vicks vapor rub, cough drops, drink lots of liquids and take tylenol and something similar to help with the fever. These helped me with the flu...oh yes and don't forget, as Valerie would say, your chicken soup. Thank you Valerie cause that really did help. God Bless you Maryann. Max, are you there? Well when ya get back just wanted you to know that I missed you and everyone tonight. I guess we have to take it easy on Maryann..she's a sicky right now. Poor thing :( God Bless all, especially all you lurkers out there, your sister in Jesus Christ, Denise | ||
| Maryann |
Hmmmmmmm, after what I did to Stanley tonight, no one believes I'm sick! It is mostly my backache, it feels like you....oops....I mean chopped liver! | ||
| Maryann |
As to the quote? You put up a good few points. Uhhhhhhhhh, well, I still think that a personal walk with Christ just natuarally causes one to want to be more like Him. When those around us, see us walking with Christ, it does give credence to what has been coming out of our mouths about the wounderful thing called Salvation by Grace Alone. As to the people that are sure that you are going to hell because you don't keep a certain day or have personal habits that they deem unfit for the kingdom, I say, "tuff tootie" and go my merry saved way and continue witnessing to those that God has pulled the veil from! IBC | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Why I otta!!!!! I otta......!!!!! Maryann, in light of your recent illness, I will be kind :)). (just wait until you are well! :)) ) Do you have a heating pad? If so, that will help. Also warm baths. If you have any of that icy hot stuff, that helps too. Remember: Rest your body. Get plenty of rest and if the rest of your body starts to aching, don't be surprised. My entire body hurt. Now it's just my head..I say just my head because compared to the entire body, it makes it a whole lot easier to have just the head a hurtin,,,I take tylenol. I'll pray for your speedy recovery. God's blessings to you always, your sister in Christ Jesus DtB | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Maryann, YOu are typing at the same time as myself so my "I otta" post was meant for earlier, before this last post of yours.. looks funny though, you got to admit, the sequence I mean.. Ah Well, the "I otta" was to be before your personal opinion on the original quote. Just so's ya know. :) Luv Ya God Bless you, DtB, your sister in Christ Jesus | ||
| Denisegilmore |
>>Uhhhhhhhhh, well, I still think that a personal walk with Christ just natuarally causes one to want to be more like Him. When those around us, see us walking with Christ, it does give credence to what has been coming out of our mouths about the wounderful thing called Salvation by Grace Alone<< Yes, I agree with this Maryann but the original statement did NOT say anything about testifying coming out of our mouths. It is speaking of our 'character, our changed life and the fruits of the spirit.' Now, if I were verbally witnessing to the Lamb of God and people also saw these fruits, they would automatically know why. They would figure me a Christian. Same with if I heard someone testifying of Jesus Christ, then I witnessed their fruits, I would know they are Christian. But, if they have not said a word and I see all these changes, fruits et-cetera, it would not necessarily mean that they are Christian as many budhists etc, live that way and act that way. This is what I mean. How do we know? We don't really, unless we were to come right out and ask them if they are Christian. And even then, when Christians know that I profess and I do try to live for my Lord, they don't believe that I am one of His Sheep. This is why the Lord told us to judge. He told us to judge by virtue of telling us not to give what is holy to the dogs, to not cast our pearls before swine et-cetera. We could not do this if we did not have some discernment and knowledge of that person. So mere appearances of people, such as character change, life change, fruits of the Spirit, do not necessarily make them Christians. As I've stated, many NON Christians have this transformation too. On the same coin is, these appearances and verbally witnessing doesn't necessarily make a Christian either. It is what is in the heart. There are many religious people that show these fine traits and claim Christianity, BUT is there genuine LOVE in their HEARTS? In some yes, in some no. We can't know that. Only God Himself knows this. We can only practice Love the best we know how. Love fulfills the Law. Do you agree? | ||
| Max |
Hi Denise, Sorry about that post. I must have misread you. Be fore careful in future. Got to go to sleep now. Doggg tired. Blessings, MC | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Oh Max, I'm sorry you are so tired but do hope you get a good nights sleep. I also hope that you enjoyed the meeting and will be looking forward to more communique tomorrow..or it is now today. God Bless you Max, DtB, your sister in Jesus our Messiah | ||
| Max |
Morning, Denise! I slept well. How about you? | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, Hope you enjoyed Coco's;,,(( I slept in my recliner in hopes of putting the fire out on the entire backside of my body. Didn't help;-)) IBC | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Denise;-)), I really don't know how to respond to this except to say that it was the "lives" of the guys at work that caused me to be receptive to the Holy Spirit's promptings. If the guys at work had NOT been living Christlike and Christ centered lives, I would have ignored them as, "just another Bible Thumper!" Now, what was the difference between the Christlike lives OFTA's live????? They are VERY nice people and do what ever they can to follow the Bible laws, ie, 10 C! One big difference is the FOCUS. OFTA's focus is the 10 C etc. They are critical of you/me if our actions don't comform to the 27 doctrines and a host of other things that have been conjured up. The focus of my friends at work that were Christians was on Christ and they were NOT critical of me!! Are we getting anywhere is solving this great discussion you brought up?;-) If people are very critical of you and various things that you do that don't fit "THEIR" heaven bound guidelines, tuff tooooootie! No-one would please them. Your testimony of Christ and His completed sacrifice etc has made an impression on people like Harry, that are not into the legalistic earth bound mindset! Don't worry about your "character" being appealing to all. That's God's worry to make those people receptive to Him through you or who ever He may choose. Remember, God may have some people lined up for you to witness to and a different bunch for me and others. Different types are drawn to different types? WDYT?;-)) IBC | ||
| Max |
Maryann, I agree with the thrust of your post. And I do appreciate it and the spirit in which it is given. But I have to query you a little bit. ^^What was the difference between the Christlike lives OFTA's lives? They are VERY nice people and do what ever they can to follow the Bible laws, i.e., 10 C!^^ Can this be proven? Was this so in the private lives of the OFTAs you have known personally? Lives backstage? Lives off screen? Let me recite for you some Scripture with some very trifling emendations. Then you give me your reactions, okay? Hereís the first passage: NIV Romans 2:17 Now you, if you call yourself an Adventist; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth-- 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You whose ìfirst ministerî of ìthe highest voice of God on earthî was GC President Elder Bob Folkenberg, was he not corrupt? 23 You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among non-Adventists because of you.î And hereís the second: NIV Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 "The teachers of the law and the Adventist hierarchy sit in Moses' seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 5 "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their Bible-totes large, their fingers ringless and their expense accounts long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the churches; 7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ëDoctor.í 8 "But you are not to be called ëDoctor' for you have only one Healer and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ëelder,' for you have one Elder and he is the Ancient of Days in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called `professor,' for you have one Professor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. 13 "Woe to you, university professors, conference presidents and evangelists, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 15 "Woe to you, university professors, conference presidents and evangelists, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 16 "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone pledges by the church, it means nothing; but if anyone signs a promissory note over to the church, he is legally bound by his signature.' 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the promissory note, or the church that makes the money sacred? 18 You also say, `If anyone swears by the church altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the pile of donated money sitting on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the pile of donated money, or the altar that makes the money sacred? 20 Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And he who swears by the church swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it. 23 "Woe to you, university professors, conference presidents and evangelists, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your income as tithe. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a ladyís ear ring but swallow a Mercedes Benz. 25 "Woe to you, university professors, conference presidents and evangelists, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind conference president! First clean the inside of the cup and dish and then the outside also will be clean. 27 "Woe to you, university professors, conference presidents and evangelists, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. 29 "Woe to you, university professors, conference presidents and evangelists, you hypocrites! You build great churches, hospitals, universities and conference administration buildings and dedicate them all to Jesus Christ. 30 And you say, `If we had lived in the days of Jesus Christ, we would not have taken part with them in the shedding of his blood.' 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who crucified Him. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of the Pharisees of His day! 33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you Walter Ray and Des Ford and Frank Knittle and Merikay Silver and Lorna Tobler and Gus Tobler and Clay Peck and Jerry Gladson and D.M. Canright. Some of whose careers you will destroy; others you will sue in court and pursue from job to job. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Stephen, whom you murdered by stoning him to death. 36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation of Seventh-day Adventists. 37 "O General Conference, General Conference, you who fire prophets and destroy the livelihoods of those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'" Okay, Maryann, the spotlight is on you. Which of the following two choices is more true? A. OFTAs live Christ-like lives and are VERY nice people who do whatever they can to follow the Bible laws and the Ten Commandments. B. What these very slightly altered scriptural texts say. Max of the Cross | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, I figured I'd get it over that statement;-)))) In fact, I was pretty sure. Let me change the statement slightly: "^^What was the difference between the Christlike lives *M*FTA's lives? They are VERY nice people and do what ever they can to follow the Bible laws, i.e., 10 C!^^" That is "*My* Friends The Adventist." As a kid growing up, I didn't see a double standard like I've heard so much about lately. To my knowledge, the lives in the open, for the most part were the same lives that were lived behind doors. I never heard of a kid going to a movie and catching HE double hockey sticks and the parents disguising themselves and going to see the same movie and so on. BUT....Great big BUT....that's not the point anyway. The verses you quoted were great. I think ALL of us are nasty inside of ourselves anyway. Do this, do that, try to look better on the outside etc. THAT IS THE SIN NATURE IN US THAT WE WILL ALL HAVE TILL THE 2nd COMING! The point is, and Denise was getting after it a bit too was: People at work, Church, play, school etc and so on are living lives that people all around are watching in one way or another. Christians size up other Christians or plain old people that they have just met and know nothing about. Those people are sizing up us in the same way. That is our human nature and I'd like to meet the person that doesn't! When those two guys at work, Kenny and Ralph, were living a Christian life and I noticed, asked questions and partly from seeing their lives, became a Christian and I sure didn't wonder if they beat their wives and kids at home. To this day, I don't know if they beat their wives and kids! What the "matter" was in this whole thing was that God used them to witness to me. I certainly hope and pray that their lives at home and in private are like they appeared to me, BUT, that is between them and God, not me and them and God. Now, MFTA or YFTA or OFTA, seem to live Christian lives on the outside. I'm sorry if the ones I know seem to be genuine. I do know, that there are people that have been around OFTA and become SDA's because of the lives they saw them live. OFTMorman's and OFTJW's and OFTMohammed's and OFTBuddist's ALL, that's what I said, ALL have had people come into their religion's because of the witness of them. As I'm writing this, I almost think I'm digging myself into a hole trying to express what is in my little pointed head;-))! Grrrrrrrrrrr;-)) Bottom line, AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHLLLLLLL people witness to one thing or the other. ALL peole have a trememdeous responsibiblity to God because their witness, if not to God, is to another. And if it is to another, that means Satan. Soooo, now, the difference that I see in the witness's of the above FRIENDS, the thing that in my mind singles the witness to Christ are the ones that pointed to Christ and NOT all this earthly hulla-ballu that seems to reek from so many. My friends Kenny and Ralph point me to Jesus, my friends the Adventist point me to the Sabbath, EGW, endtime terror's, 666 and the IJ, my friends the Mohammed's point me to the Koran and Mohammed and so on. You JUST CAN'T deny the power of a witness in the form of a life lived in a christlike or "good" way. Zillions of people are drawn into THOSE religions from "good" lives modeled! Looking forward to your next post;-)) Ouch ouchy ouch and harthat;))....IBC | ||
| Maryann |
Oops, that is "hardhat;-))" |
