| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Lydell, It's amazing what others outside of the SDA Church CAN see, isn't it? When I've mentioned Sunday being the mark of the beast, I got the same reaction from non-sda's. As to the 10 commandments, most outside of the SDA Church, will say that we don't live according to the letter of the law, but in the Spirit of the Law. Those have been the reactions I've seen and heard outside the SDA ranks. God Bless you always, DtB, your sister in our Lord Jesus | ||
| Valm |
Denise, Interesting that you mentioned the ten commandments. In liturgical churches the season called "Lent" is approaching. This is a 6 week period before Easter in which these churches reflect on the sarifice of Christ and also on living under the law. It is customary for liturgical churces to recite the ten commandments every Sunday during Lent. I go to a liturgical church and am on the worship committee. It was discussed the level of participation of the children in this portion of the service. And my opinion was asked. I asked if they were asking me as a parent and they said yes. I told them that I had the concern that my children would be impressed that they were living under the Mosaic law if too much emphasis was placed on the ten commandments and I would rather them learn a Bible text reflective of living with the commandments of Jesus. Well the priest about fell off his chair!!! So even other Christian churches and people do not approach the ten commandments in the manner in which "New Covenant" folks do. It is not just an SDA thing. We have briefed on this discussion before (this priest and I)and I have told him that if he were to defend the ten commandments as an obligation for salvation we'd have to seriously consider the complete package of the Sabbath!!! I was surprised. We are starting Bible studies there soon, something that this very little and aging congregation has not done consistently. It will be interesting to say the least. The priest is not giving the studies, the "deacon" is and she told me that she thought she would start with a series on "Sabbath" rest. I was tickled with her choice and am anxious to get started. I am wondering if our priest will also attend, he believes the whole theory that Saturday Sabbath was change to Sunday and views sunday as a "Holy Day of Obligation". I will keep you all updated on what I find is an interesting happening in my own congregation. Valerie | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Valerie, I can relate to reciting the 10 commandments but I , as a child, had to recite them every single day to my father. I've never heard of the 6 week deal you are telling me about. I have heard of lent however. Not only did I recite the 10 commandments as a child but I had to wear a bracelet with all 10 commandments on it as well. You must of been shaking or trying not to laugh at the priests reaction! The term Liturgical is a new term for me. Is that Catholic? Just curious if that applies also to other denominations. Of course I didn't know that other denominations did that 6 week reciting either. See how little I know about Churches! :) I'll be looking forward to hearing how the Sabbath study goes. Considering that this priest had a problem with the 10 commandments being fulfilled through Jesus Christ, he probably will NOT like it much if you were to fill him in on the Sabbath rest also being in Jesus. Especially if this priest keeps his Sunday as a Holy Day. My mother was Catholic before she married my dad. Her entire family, my family, are mostly all Catholic as well. I remember reciting something while holding the Rosary Beads. Also, my mothers funeral was a Catholic Mass. You know, one time back in the 80s, I arranged for and paid for a funeral of my friends mother. Also I was the one that had to contact the family. We had never spoken to each other, let alone met each other. So here they all show up at my home for the funeral and afterwards the food I had purchased. Well, these people didn't like me at all. I'm laughing as I type this cause the memory of what happened that day. Anyhow, they were very stuffy because I was not of any religious order and I smoked and drank a beer often. After a few hours of them being in my home and me feeling like the stranger, I retreated to my bedroom to just get away from them. While in the bedroom, I had remembered that somewhere in my closet was some hard liquour. So I got into my closet and searched but to no avail. About the time I was thinking that I would have to go out in the midst of these people, I noticed a flask of sorts with what looked like vodka in it. Well, me being me, I swooped that flask off of the nail it was hanging from on my closet door and opened the flask and tipped it into my mouth with great joy that I had found some booze. Just as I was tipping that flask up to my mouth and took my first gulp, someone walked into my bedroom. It was one of those relatives of the deceased and she gasped! I too, gasped but not for the same reason. I gasped because that flasks contents that looked so identical to vodka, turned out to be water! It was awful! I remember spewing the water out of my mouth and this relative had summoned other relatives into the bedroom to now condemn this heretic who had mistakenly took a flask of "Holy Water", thinking it to be vodka. What an awful scene this was! Everyone with their beads out and just a praying away, making the sign of the cross on their chests. I mean it was a mad house! Well, it was funeral time so we all get into our perspective limos and go to the funeral. Because the deceased person had my name on her body when found, as her daughter, it was insisted by the priest conducting this mass funeral, who not knowing what had occurred at the home, that I sit up front. I did relunctantly. Everyone was just glaring at me. So here I am, sitting amongst strangers who were not at all liking me for drinking the Holy Water. The funeral began. All in unison would say something after the priest and eventually I caught on and even joined in with this memorized stuff you say after the priest says something. When all of a sudden one of the relatives, the sister of the deceased, gets up and starts flinging Holy Water on me! She is babbling away some words in latin and flinging so much water on me that the priest conducting this mass, had to stop her and make her sit down! I'm over here laughing and trying to type. Anyhow, as you can imagine, the foods I bought for the after service deal, they wouldn't touch. Afterall, I was the heretic and in no uncertain terms were they to eat my food, according to them. At home, all the foods laid out and they are all very very angry at me. So, again, I retreat, only this time to the kitchen to retrieve a beer. In the kitchen drinking my beer and they are all out in my livingroom. Finally after a beer or two, I walked out into the midst of them and offered to them either white or red wine that was also sitting out there, amongst the foods I had purchased. The women wouldn't even talk to me and would take no wine. Back to the kitchen I went. I was just waiting for them all to get out of my house so I could relax! One of the husbands came into the kitchen, he said "do you have another beer in there?" I smile and served him one. So it was him and me in the kitchen. Within the next 20 minutes, I had all the husbands standing in the kitchen with me drinking beer. They couldn't take the tension either! Eventually the wives came to find their husbands. Now at this point me and their husbands were telling jokes and laughing and what not. The wives saw the laughter and realized that there was wine in the living room. They took their husbands with them to the livingroom and they all were eating and drinking and I finally had the opportunity to just go out into my back yard, not feeling obligated to be their hostess so much now. Wow! That was an experience I won't forget! :)) I'll bet they haven't either...LOL God Bless you Valerie and your husband and sons. your sister (not nun) in Christ Jesus, DtB | ||
| Valm |
Denise, That is a very funny story. It sounds like something you would see in a sitcom movie. Drinking holy water is a biggie in the eyes of a strict Catholic. Liturgical churches follow a church/seasonal calendar and are similar in format to the RC calendar and services. There are pros and cons to such a system. And there are many parts of it I do like. The important thing to me is to view this calendar and service as the tradition of men and expression that it is rather than a doctrine or creed to be obligated to. The Church "year" starts with Advent a season before Christmas in which the services, scripture reading a prayers focus on preparing our hearts for the coming of the Messiah. Then comes the celebration of Christmas. After Christmas comes Epiphany in which the focus is that Christ came to save all people not just the Jewish nation. Then Lent comes. This is a time of penitence and reflection on the sinful nature of men and the price Jesus paid for us. The week before Easter is called Holy Week and there are services everynight from Weds up to Easter morning. The services are a dramatic telling of the last days before Christ died on the cross. I find this week very moving. Easter is celebrated for 6 weeks and then the calendar moves into Pentecost with the "1st Sunday of Pentercost" in which the receiving of the Holy Spirit is celebrated and reflected upon. Ther remainder of the calendar is pentecost up until advent starts four weeks before Christmas. Communion or the "Eucharist" is celebrated at most every service. I find this ritual meaningful and very reflective of Christ's love and atonement for me. I find myself teary eyed during communion as I am back playing some wonderful hymn on the organ as the congregation is receiving communion. I would neither highly recommend or not recommend a liturgical church to a Former SDA. It works for me for a variety of personal reasons. One being that my husband was a RC and finds the service comfortable. I love ritual and symbolism. I love the music. I find that the Gospel message is preached here as well as anywhere else I have been. I tend to lean to the left in my political and spiritual thinking (Sorry all, I do) and I need to be in a congregation that accepts that. I find that Episcopal Congregations do little judging of their members. I am not interested in being policed by a congregation. There are elements in the liturgical churches that are much to close to RC for most Formers to feel at home with. While the form and traditions are strikingly similar, the meaning behind them often differs. I also find that while the meaning to one member or even priest means one thing to others it will mean another. I find overall a lack of rigidity which I am at home with. So thats it in a nutshell Denise. And God Bless you too Denise. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Denise, Just a real quick story. My husband's Grandmother was very distressed about him marrying a non Catholic and also in an Episcopal church. The Lent season before our wedding she pinned me with the question, What was I doing for my Lenten fast? (People often give up something during Lent like deserts or wine or TV ect) I politely told her that I did not plan to give up anything as I wasn't Catholic. She told me I was marrying one so I better get with the program so what was I giving up. I blurted out "Watermelon". She said, "Watermelon, you can't even find it in the stores now." I told her yea I would have no problem keeping my committment. She was pretty frosted needless to say. And even at our wedding couldn't bring herself to talk to me. Oh well. She got sick a few months later and I came over a few times in the week with groceries and to listen to her lungs and the like. That was over 14 years ago. I can do no wrong in her eyes from that point forward. | ||
| Valm |
PS. The deacon who is giving the Bible study told me that Jesus was her Sabbath rest. So it will be interesting if the priest show at these studies and the deacon (in a subordinate position) gives a strong study not to his liking. Valerie | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Valerie, At the end of your post, you said: >>So thats it in a nutshell Denise.<< NUTSHELL my eye! <laughing over here>. WOW, that seems like alot of things to remember in the way of ceremonial type things. I'd never make in your Church. No offense of course. It's just that, I guess it all seems too rigid for me. But then you should know me by now. I'm not a person who really knew how to celebrate Christmas until this year! Remember, I was the kid who had all sorts of rigid customs taught to her,,with the exception of the holidays. I only knew things like Hannahkah, Yom Kippur, Passover, Days of Unleavened bread, Feast of Trumpets, Feast of Tabernacles, etc etc. But NO holidays..not even birthdays. Infact, I was kicked out of school more than all the kids I know put together because I was instructed to walk up to the teacher and tell her "I cannot participate in these pagan activities because they go against our religion." Then I was to simply walk out of the classroom and walk home. So, that was my childhood. Oh yeah, and I wasn't allowed to salute the flag each morning in school. I was instructed by my dad to not stand up and if the teacher insisted that I stand, then just walk out and walk home. True story. Course at my dad's end of his life, he stood on the Gospel, but I was too young to understand the Gospel. But I did know about a God named Jesus Christ and I did see my dad stick to the book called the Bible and all the Churches and family were mad at him. So, I spent another 7 or more years with a paternal Grandmother who had promised my dad that she would continue teaching us children in his faith. But she would not consider deleting the Feasts and other Jewish Holy Days. So they were still a part of my life. By the time I reached 18, Church going stopped and I joined the army. Then spent many many years as a total heathen. Except that I KNEW there was this God named Jesus Christ and that He was going to come back and take us all to Heaven. All through my years of drugs, alcohol and strange lifestyle, I knew that. When I started attending Church a few years ago, it was fairly simple stuff. I am grateful to this day that I experienced that. Of course I won't forget the first time I took communion. I had no clue what they were doing and just followed along. I was handed this little cracker thing and a little tiny steel cup of grape juice. But, I did remember something from my childhood, Passover. So I connected the two and figured this to be a sort of Passover for this Church I was attending. But I was afraid to eat that cracker or drink the grape juice! I thought that first I had better be sinless or else the wrath of God would come upon me! True story. It took this lady sitting next to me, who was also my ride to Church, to coach me into eating that cracker and drinking the juice. So, then I ended up with this massive ear infection! It was so bad that the pharmacist would not fill the perscription because my insurance only covered a fraction of the cost of this expensive anitbiotic. My doctor saw to it that it was filled by another pharmacy. Plus all the pain medication and the ear drops. This thing was so bad that I figured it was because I ate that cracker and drank the juice and wasn't sinless before I did that. One Church member came to stay with me a night or two because this medication to kill this ear infection could cause seizures and I'm already epileptic. Fortunately, no seizures. But from that time on, I would not take communion because I couldn't quite get sinless..:)) About a year ago, I heard a pastor say that we are to discern the Lord's body while taking communion. So with that, I felt my need to be sinless was not neccesitated. What a relief! Then once again, I found myself back in the SDA Church and with communion we did foot washing too. This was a new one on me! I couldn't relate it to anything of my childhood teachings. But I went along, of course being coached by a friend of mine that this is what the Lord meant for us to do and that He did the same thing for His Disciples. Made sense to me. I had read the Bible and He did wash their feet. So really, I've tossed or have been tossing my childhood teachings one by one but I must admit that in them is the SDA teaching as well and it's not easy for me to have a rigid anything now. I need a relaxed, non formal fellowship, where all people can just be glad that our Lord Jesus Christ died for us and we can praise Him and Worship Him together. So, for now, I'm not attending Church but when I can, I go to the FAF meetings and infact at one meeting I attended, I was very happily surprised cause we had communion! That made me very happy and I think about it often still. That was probably the first time I knew what it was really about and was with like faith people. What a Blessing. Did I go on long enough or what? And I didn't even get into how my Jewish upbringing went with my Native American Indian way. <chuckling>. Oh yes and my middle eastern religions that I was into for awhile including but not limited to, levitation, meditation, yoga, chanting and the like. What a mixture eh? I've had to really read the Bible and search the Scriptures daily to find that Pearl. The amazing thing about all of this, is that all along, Jesus Christ knew me and He loved me and He brought me home. God Bless you Valerie and thank you for sharing what your services are like. I've never heard of some of the terms you used, nor have I engaged in the ceremonies but I respect how you follow our Lord as you faithfully do. DtB, your sister and friend in Christ Jesus | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Oh Valerie, Giving up of watermelon cracked me up over here. I'm glad that your Grandmother in law can now love you. That's the way it should be. Praise the Lord! I do remember lent being part of someplace in my childhood and also into some parts of my adult years cause my mother and her family are Catholic. One year I commited to stop smoking but that didn't quite turn out as I had expected. Your Sabbath study with the Deacon stating that she believes that it is a Sabbath rest in Jesus is GREAT! Now if your Priest shows up, that will be interesting. I'm looking forward to hearing how this turns out in your congregation. Blessings to your entire household, DtB, your sister in Jesus our Messiah :) | ||
| Colleentinker |
Valerie and Denise, I always enjoy your insights! Funny Lent story, Valerie! Speaking of liturgical experiences, your mentioning Lent made me remember my attending an Ash Wednesday service with a dear friend (former SDA) at her Episcopal church about four years ago. It was right during the time we had decided we were going to leave Adventism, but we hadn't officially made the move. We were still absorbing the newness of scripture and slowly releasing our arrogance and fear of other traditions. (It's funny how that arrogance problem keeps cropping up in new settings, however. I guess God is never done with us!) I met my friend on a rainy Wednesday, and I remember her saying to me as we walked into the church, "This is part of your spiritual heritage that you can enjoy now." I remember the feeling of gratitude and freedom I had at that moment, realizing that I didn't have to fear being "tainted" by near-Catholicism by attending such a service. That was the first liturgical service I'd attended at which I took communion. Previously I had always had some unspecified fear of taking communion at a service where there were incense, liturgical readings, clerical robes, and real wine. I'll never forget the feeling of reverence and gratitude to God I felt as I received the thumb-printed cross of ashes on my forehead. The gospel is present wherever the name of Christ is lifted up, and I remember how humbled I felt as I finally experienced worshiping Jesus in a setting I had always believed was a false religion. I don't choose to attend a liturgical church on a regular basis, but it's not because I don't think I'll find Christ there. I still praise God for showing me, continually, that he lives in the praises of his people, not in certain types of worship services. In His grace, Colleen | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Colleen, I have heard of Ash Wednesday. Is it a communion service? Wow, I'm learning so much tonight. You are right Colleen, God lives in the Praises of our lips (I think that is in the book of Psalms). Our Lord God looks at our heart and that is all that matters to Him. Isn't it wonderful to know that we can experience this freedom and not feel like we will sin if we dare to walk into another denomination other than our own? What a life our God has given us! Let us Praise HIM together. He is forever with us Colleen, never forget that. And everything we think as a problem, God's turns it for the good. What Peace that gives us if we allow it. God's Blessings shine brightly on you and Richard as we all walk together in our Lord Jesus! your sister always, in Christ Jesus Denise the Berean | ||
| Chyna |
it is funny what is comforting to some is rather odd to others. being raised in a southern Baptist church, I was taught there were only a few sacraments: baptism, communion, hum, there is a third, can't think of it right now. so when I went to college and people when around with these funny black dust marks on their forehead needless to say I was fascinated by the fact that not only was it ok to go around with grubby foreheads, it was supposed to be spiritual! the only reason I would have beef with it is that it could possibly be an earmarking of spiritual pride, "I'm so holy, I gave up X for Lent." when Jesus talked about fasting He said to keep it a secret, and not to be like the Pharisees :), or the man who prayed standing up loudly in the square. I must admit since I am not part of the culture, giving up "chocolate" for Lent (for how long? 6 weeks? 40 days/nights?) doesn't even seem nearly adequate enough to show my love towards God. but maybe that is the point. Chyna :) | ||
| Chyna |
dear Lydell, here is the thing ... it seems like if you question SDAs they won't tell you that they think going to church on Sunday is the mark of the beast, but they certainly act like it is. when I directly (as always ever frank) questioned my then SDA b/f if he thought that going to church on Sunday was the mark of the beast he said "no." but then he treated going to church on Sunday as a taboo. or "why would he ever want to contemplate attending a Sunday church" Back then I was still under the delusion that he knew that what day you choose to worship on makes no diference to God. so my question is is do they just SAY that they don't believe it because they are trying to appear like Mainstream Christians or are they not saying it because they know nonSDA's won't understand/will be offended. basically do they say that they don't, but really do believe it. and why is that? or do some just don't believe it? but then my ex did believe in the National Sunday Law, and that's really far out there already. the most ironic thing is that while I was reading that stuff on Revelations that yes, one of the end time signs is that people will fall away from the church, and SDAs point out to former SDAs leaving SDAism, but what I find funny is that perhaps movements like the SDAs and Mormons and JW's are the actual 'fallen away' ones. huh. Chyna | ||
| Denisegilmore |
I had no idea that this Ash Wednesday meant putting some ashes on your forehead..hehe. Sounds funny to me but I'm not disrespecting it, it is just a different thing I'm learning. Although, I have to have to admit that the dot of ashes on the forehead reminds me of the woman from India who wore a ret dot on her head for marriage or something. And Chyna, that "X" you mentioned, reminds me of all the Malcom X followers. They put Xs on their foreheads for a long time. I happen to have a picture of Malcom on my living room wall. Behind him are all kinds of slaves in chains and shackles. He turned out to be a very good man if anyone ever studied his life. Just thought I throw that in the mix here, since I was in the politics of South Africa. "Bring back Nelson Mandela Bring back home to Soweto I want to see him walking hand in hand With Winnie Mandela....." remember? This is neat stuff to learn all these differences and the significances they have to each of us. God Bless everyone, and goodnite, I'm off to slumberland. DtB | ||
| Valm |
Chyna, Your question: so my question is is do they just SAY that they don't believe it because they are trying to appear like Mainstream Christians or are they not saying it because they know nonSDA's won't understand/will be offended. basically do they say that they don't, but really do believe it. and why is that? or do some just don't believe it? but then my ex did believe in the National Sunday Law, and that's really far out there already. The answer is yes to all of them depending on the situation. These beliefs are "out there." And unless you are gradually brought into them (brain washing in my point of view) you would immediately recognize them as out there and not accept them. SDAs do want in some circumstances to be considered mainstream. If they were considered otherwise they would not fit in the social situation they were in at the time. I think you will find that the behaviors of individual SDAs depend on alot of factors within themselves: level of belief and committment, need to fit in with the present social situation, motivations to convert the individual, ect. I guess what I am saying is you probably won't find a fixed answer to the nature of question you are asking. Good luck figuring it all out though.:)) Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Denise, I forgot about Ash Weds. Ash Weds is the service which begins the season of lent. In the service the priest places a cross of black ashes on your forehead and says "From dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return." For me this is a reminder as to where I will be and what I will be if I do not have Jesus in my life. I choose not to wear the cross on my forehead the remainder of the day. But then I usualy go to an evening service. To wear it is an act of humility, I think but I do not really know on that one. "Giving up" something for Lent sounds rediculous also. It is suppose to be a symbolic reminder of what Christ did for us. When I do keep a "Lenten Fast" I choose not to give up something but to do something instead. I choose to do something which will help me focus on Jesus. I haven't thought about it yet for this year. Mardi Grau or Fat Tuesday is all a part of this too. It is the GRAND PARTY the night before going into your Lenten Fast. Although, I do think it has gotten a bit on the hedenistic side for most people serious about the season. In the Episcopal tradition, usually on Tuesday (we call it Shrove Tuesday) we have a pancake and sausage supper. Very high fat foods, get your fill before you start fasting. I think that long ago the Lenten Fast had much more to do with diet. At some of the churches I have attended we have gotten festive with the kids, painting their faces, wearing beads and ending the evening with a pinata. This fanfare seems unrelated to the season, but for a child it gives distinction to leaving a joyous season like Epiphany and entering one more reflective on the problem of being a human being without Jesus and the sacrifice he made for us. The other thng we do at the pancake supper is sing alot of Allelulia songs as during Lent Allelulia is not spoken. Once all of the kids wrote Allelulia on paper strips and they were put in a box and then taken out at Easter. These services do sound rigid. I view them as dramatic representations. They would seem rigid to me if I believed they were to be viewed as an obligation. I see them as a tradition I choose to do. By the way, Ash Weds is the 28th of February. Go and have a cultural experience. I guess my nutshell just got bigger. Valerie | ||
| Lydell |
Well Chyna, the official party line that the SDA structure spouts is, "there are true believers in all Christian denominations." And that is what the typical SDA is likely to tell you if asked directly. However, when they are with other SDA's they talk very differently. The prevailing attitude is that Christians who are worshipping on Sunday are viewed about the same as any heathen. The widely accepted attitude is more like someone is considered to be a true Christian IF they have never ever looked at the issue of the sabbath. At least this is likely what would be said in a sabbath school discussion when the group is trying to be generous. But the underlying attitude is that once a person has been told about the sabbath and rejected it, well then they are certain that person couldn't possibly be a Christian. And really the way most of the conversation runs in a group of SDA's is that if someone is in a church that meets on Sunday and have never examined the sabbath, well, they surely couldn't really be a Christian, because they obviously would have already seen "the light". It's pretty ugly. There really is this pervasive unconscious attitude that takes hold that if someone is not worshipping on the 7th day, then they can't possibly have anything to share with someone who is in the "true" church. It's a nasty little thing that subtly takes hold. It got us, and we were Christians before we ever joined the SDA's so we should have known better! And this underlying attitude is what keeps newly former SDA's from going to a church that worships on Sunday. That's why whenever folks from church lay hands on me to pray, I'm often reduced to some tears of shame for past attitudes and/or thankfulness for the freedom from them now. | ||
| Billtwisse |
ALL: I tried to post a very passionate message in the middle of the night; but my composition was nullified by a spontaneous disconnect! In case some of the readers don't know what a 'spontaneous disconnect' is--due to my 'unspiritual' use of 'advanced' English (which is really very elementary)--it means that my internet communication in trying to post the message 'timed out'! What does 'timed out' mean? Ugh-I won't try to explain! I cited a very lengthy story about my experiences with the doctrine of 'Lent' (especially as related to Ash Wednesday and Good Friday) and my own struggles in trying to practice a 'Protestant' version of it a number of years ago. Sorry, it will never be posted! I forgot to cut and paste the message in a document before trying to post it. God has 'shown' me in this fruitless endeavor to stick with core issues and not side issues. I want to get back to the real issue of heresy and whether SDA heresy is truly unique. I will quote from one of my former posts in the Covenant Theology thread: I can either love the souls of Adventists or their institutional system--but not both. Almost daily, I see evidence of how Adventism is destroying the eternal souls of many relatives and friends. Note this point: many of them are no longer in the institution. But they are still enslaved to the false idealogy of the institution, to the point that knowing the gospel is impossible. D.M. Canright had a lot to say about this syndrome. Even my liberal friends who left Adventism years ago are still slaves to the doctrine of the God-given ability of man to choose what is right--which fundamental is left over from a lifetime of SDA influence on their thinking. If you believe that idea, you cannot see the gospel. Maybe I used extreme wording in some cases (and I'm willing to accept rebuke)--but the point is whether the main idea is true. Having reiterated that, I want to re-emphasize what I was trying to say in my recent post on Gnosticism and the 'great apostasy' that Paul knew would happen after his death (by revelation). The false doctrine of SDA's, in essence, is nothing but a repetition of these 5 elements in the original great apostasy: 1. Perfectionism (The false epistle of Laodecia--"in all things do not sin") 2. Autonomous man (Justin Martyr's 'Apology' defending free will). I have a friend in Colorado (a learned Baptist theologian with a doctorate--in case anyone would try and discredit his historical knowledge) who wrote a paper years ago on the eight heresies introduced by Justin Martyr. Reading this paper was one of the most transforming events of my spiritual life! 3. Neo-legalism (any view of new covenant law as a means of gaining or retaining salvation by grace--including views of the continued prominence of the decalogue. The Epistle of Barnabas evidences the beginning of this mentality. 4. Remnant theology. This is based on a multitude of apocalyptic mis-interpretations regarding a special last-day people and message that will usher in the second coming (i.e., Montanism). 5. Institutional church with political power to silence and condemn all dissenters of any of its doctrinal pronouncements. I will oppose all 5 wherever they are found. Adventism is only a sickly plant of the historical fruit of these 5 doctrines. It deserves no unique identity in terms of defining heresy. All of SDAism is but a repetition of certain aspects of the original great apostasy. --Twisse | ||
| Valm |
Bill, There will be heresies of various forms in every Christian denomination across the world. Perfectionism is not a thing we humans have down. Who am I to say what is or what is not heresy? I am a mere human. I certainly do not wish to demean what benefits another even if I do not benefit from it. Since I will probably find some heresy or point of disagreement in every congregation out there, I come to the dilema of where to worship. Some folks are in the position to choose not to participate in congregational worship. I do not find myself in that position. You may consider what liturgical churches do as heresy, but it is not yours to condemn. Bill, I will be frank with you. Your come to preach the Gospel message and speak of brotherly love, however, your posts smack with arrogance, an heir of superiority, and condemnation to all who do not believe as you do. I find that although you have left the Adventist church, the heir of being self righteous and the attitude of having the "corner market" on correct theolgy has not left you. I have read and reread your post of a few days ago. And was almost prepared to ask you some sincere questions. But with your prevailing attitude I will not engage in any further conversations with you. You have taken spiritual discussions to a height of UGLINESS that surpasses anything I grew up with. Valerie | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Great and true post Bill. I especially focused on the neo-legalism for that seems to draw many in to their ranks. Not just SDA as you know. Infact, all five points here apply to serveral denominations that I can readily name. That is a post that deserves printing. So I'm going to print this out as well. Thank you for these 5 points of heresy that are prevailing the Churches of today. Sad but true. God Bless you, Denise P.S. I have been timed out too and although it's frustrating, it always ended up for the best. I'm always thanking God for that, once I figure out that perhaps it was His idea. I'm slow sometimes. :) | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Valerie, Honestly, without hesitation, I can say that Bill's post was not directed at you. Infact, having met him and know that he is a man of integrity, condemning you would not be his style. Moreover, from what I read in his posts are his beliefs, just like I post mine and you post yours. That's fair for all. I do however, happen to agree with him and I guess when you said that heresy happens in alot of Churches and that some people choose not to attend, I can relate to that. I'm one of those. For me, a Church building is not so important. The most important thing to me acknowleging Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. Also, I do enjoy fellowship with other Christians as long as there is brotherly love shown one to another. But as far as the Liturgical (my new word <smile>), I will find one and attend. Guess I'm curious and also enjoy seeing how others worship, praise etc. etc.. Just a thing I have built into me I guess. But in it comes alot of good because then it builds my knowledge of what is out there and why. For me, it's very interesting and sometimes it really establishes what I believe. Trust me Valerie, I enjoy experiencing the differences even if I don't believe the way they might. But as someone else on this forum has said twice in my reading, "sieze the day." Translated in latin it would read "Carpe Diem." I hope I spelled the latin correctly..:)) God Bless you much and RELAX :) Love you always in Christ Jesus, Denise, your sister in Him too! |
