| Author | Message | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Y'all, Hey Richardjr, good to see ya;-)) As to predestination. I have a SIMPLE mind so have a SIMPLE opinion. The bulk of the salvation passages in the Bible says that if I believe, I WILL be saved;-)) They DON'T say that if I am predestined, I will be saved. Therefore, since God knows the end from the begining, and knows the heart of ALL mankind, he knew "MY" choice. So looking at that from a human point of view, and God was talking to humans through humans, predestination/election ect. is just a great human way of saying: GOD FOR-KNEW YOUR CHOICE:-)) As far as those isolated texts that tend to put a bit of FOG in the picture, I SIMPLY look at those as a few beautiful clouds and go on, basking in the beautiful clear blue sky, knowing that MY salvation is secure through the blood of JESUS. John 3:14-18 and John 5:24 and 10:25-30:-)) SIMPLE minded Maryann:):):)IBC=Insured By Christ | ||
| Valm |
MaryAnn my dear, You are a breath of fresh air to this conversation. Thank you. Lori, I will copy your post and read it after a well deserved nap!!! To everyone who is interested: I am embracing the foundation of election as in Ephesians 1!!! God has chosen us, in CHRIST JESUS before the foundations of the world were set!!!! I use the color orange to add to the sunshine of this message!! IN CHRIST only is there an election of men. This wonderful plan of salvation was set down before the foundations of the world because GOD KNEW we would really mess things up, if given free choice. I BELIEVE that there was one electing act of God and that was that he choose JESUS and through him and only through him am I a choosen one. I thank God that I am a woman. I went through the pains of two unfortunate pregnancies and experienced the grief of this loss. I am the priveleged Mother of two overly active boys. And in going through those nine months of childbearing, LABOR, and nursing these boys at my breast for a very long time, I KNOW I JUST KNOW that my Father in heaven would never choose one of his children over another. Just hold a child in your arms and at your breast night after night and there are some things you just know that are beyond scholarly arguement. The Bible may SEEM to say one thing, but in good time, God will reveal to me the true meaning of all of these texts. In the mean time I will hold fast to the true character of GOD which is perfect Love and perfect parenting!!! PRAY for me that I can hold fast to this love as I felt like I was being taken under the water and drowning spiritually last night and this morning. Valerie | ||
| Sherry2 |
Hey Val, I am praying for you. Thank you for all your sharing and honesty. Iím reading a really good book by Philip Yancey called ěReaching the Invisible Godî. If you ever get it in your library, itís really worth reading. I like it because he is so honest in dealing with our doubts that we will go through in our Christian walk. Iím always impressed with honesty, and not pretending things arenít as they are, not everything is wrapped up in a perfectly neat theological package. It's just really worth a read I think. It's amazing how He loves us, isn't it? And we deserve none of it. He died to make peace with us while we were yet in sin. That doesn't equate in our thinking. It is the Holy Spirit, I believe, that gives depth and breatdth to that. You know too, Val, I have 2 kids myself, 4 and 2 years of age. When things have been a spiritual warfare, sometimes all I can do is put on praise music and sing (even if I don't feel like it), and praise Him anyhow, despite it all. And lift Him up and remember His love He has shown me in the past. Then those chains start to fall right back off again. Blessings to you. You are in the best possible hands you could ever be in. And you are fully pleasing to Him as well! Your sis in Christ, Sherry | ||
| Richardjr |
Hi Sherry2, I just completed reading Yancey's book about a week ago. I would recommend it to anybody. In fact, any book by him is a good read. | ||
| Valm |
The nap never happened, I am too keyed up!!! So here I am bringing a verse or two of scripture to lift ALL of us out of this doctrinal pit we find ouselves in. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should tast death for (hey guess what?) EVERY MAN. Hebrews 2:9 There is one god, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for (who?)ALL 1 Timothy 2:5,6 For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men. Titus 2:11 Even so then at the present time also there is a remnant according to the election of (what?)GRACE Romans 11:5 Dear God: THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for electing Jesus that by through him we are all elected!!! Forgive me of my doubting what you have told me in both the Bible and my life experiences. And to think that I was contemplating looking for truth outside of Jesus!! Thank you for my sisters who have prayed for and supported me in this time. Please be with those who are considering this false doctrine of predestination; help us to uphold your love to them that they may be brought to your light. Love and gratitude from your elected one in Christ Jesus!!!!Valerie | ||
| Lydell |
Maryann, that WAS refreshing. Keep it simple. Let it say what it says. Alright Valerie! That was a quick turn around. Okay, I'll add Ezekiel 33:11, "As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. I John 4: 9,10 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through HIm. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His son to be the propitiation for our sins. And I'm reminded of that most interesting story of Christ healing the 10 lepers. He already knew only one would be thankful, yet the offer of healing was given to all 10. We can make the mistake of reading the scriptures as an intellectual exercise. Of seeing faith as being based on this intellectual exercise. Of looking to the words as being the source of the truth, rather than looking to the author of the words. The words on the page are just ink on paper without the Holy Spirit breathing life into them. Over and over when I read the scriptures the message that resounds from that God breathed life is the constant message that God loves ALL men and that His offer of salvation is open to ALL who will choose to believe. Against that Godbreathed word, against the experience with the love of God, supposedly "intellectual" arguments on a computer screen are powerless. Maryann, have you heard this one: the scriptures are so simple it takes a man to make them complicated. God did not have the scriptures written so that the essentials were deep dark mysteries that can only be fathomed out thru the study of the original language, the writings of the early church fathers, or manuverings to explain simple words. "All" means all. "Everyone" means everyone. He desired for even the most marginally educated to be able to read the scriptures and know what they said. So, when I see that God says he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, I'm just simple enough to believe that He really means he desires for the wicked to turn from their way and live. So I guess in your simplicity, you are not alone. | ||
| Valm |
Just another of the wonderful texts which insures that all have the opportunity of being the elect: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to usward not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 | ||
| Valm |
Oh and another beautiful one. Isaiah poetically and prophetically speaks of God's chosen one. Is it Israel, is it us, is it Jesus? You decide: Behold my servant, whom I uphold; MINE ELECT in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon HIM: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles....I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and GIVE THEE FOR A COVENANT of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. I am the Lord: that is my name: and my GLORY will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof......Isaiah 42 Isn't the Lord good to elect Jesus that ALL of us might be elect in him? Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Lydell, I just read your post which came in around the time of mine. Thank you for those texts of encouragement!!! At the end of this day I am going to write them all down in my list of Bible texts to see encouragement by under the heading of "Elect in Christ Jesus!!!" I have this little book of favorite Bible verses that I started a couple months back, very good therapy for days like today. Hey all, POST you FAVORITE TEXTS concerning this matter!!! We need to generate the power of God EVERLASTING LOVE by witnessing to it...... Valerie | ||
| Richardjr |
Coming in this discussion only recently will probably show my ignorance, but I find it fascinating and more interesting than the 500 channels on T>V>. In understanding Scripture we have always developed an ebb and flow I would like to call a "theology of tension". Augustine emphasized the soverignity of God then pelagius came along and provided the tension of human choice. Another 1000 years roll along and Calvin emphasizes the soverignity of God and Arminus Sp? provided the human side of the tension again. In the March 5,2001 edition of "Christianity Today" there is an article called "God at Risk". It reminded me of the suject here talked about. I liked what Royce Gordon Gruenler says about this "theology of tension,";'Some would argue, however, that if God knows the future, there is no human freedom and history is a farce. It all hinges on your understanding of human freedom. God is in control, and he is working out his purposes. Our freedom comes as something given to us as a gift of grace. We are responisble for working out its implications, but it's still a gift. It is not freedom in an autonomous sense, however. I'm free only in Christ. I'm also a slave of Christ. Servanthood for God's sake, and thus for on another, is the highest kind of freedom.' | ||
| Valm |
Oh and there is: Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. Matthew 18:14 | ||
| Valm |
RichardJr. There is much more too this. Have you read the posts over the last week? Yes God is in control. There is no point of arguement there. This issue smacks at the very heart of WHO GOD IS AND HIS CHARACTER. This is about God picking and choosing arbitrarily "according to his pleasure". This is about God's purposes denying the innocents of salvation. It is NOT BIBLICAL and it is DEFAMATORY TO OUR GOD. I have never felt more passionate about something spiritual as I do now. This issue has caused lost sleep, tears and yes I almost walked out on Christianity this morning. Do you have children? If you do, hold one in your arms all night long and imagine that they are pre-elected to damnation. Perhaps then you will see my passion to this horrific doctrine. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
And what breaks my heart is that people I care deeply for are being sucked into this message. There is no resting in Jesus here. How can you because how can you be certain that you are God's elect choosen before the foundations of the earth?Ahhh.....by their fruits you will know them. So then we get right back to the whole evaluating ourselves to see if we are the elect. Which then and there we have just went right back on our works. A few days back GA with all gracious intentions wished to assure me that I was one of God's elect because it was reflected in my posts here on FAF. THOSE ARE MY ACTIONS!!!! And I am only God's ELECT THROUGH CHRIST JESUS. And if I have to determine my election on my actions, well you wouldn't want to see me when I blow a cork at my kids or husband sometimes!!!!! Yes. Yes. I am passionate about this issue. But for now I must go my second born will be walking through the door, well he just did. And we call him the "Little Hurricane" and also "No Stranger to Dirt." Does that give you an idea of this one, very little time until he is in bed tonight. Valerie | ||
| Richardjr |
Valm, Im sorry I have not read last weeks posts. I will now. Like a dummy I just walked into this thread this morning and read only the last day. I don't want to muddy up the water. It sounds like this as been pretty intense if you wanted to walk out of Christianity. Richardjr | ||
| Richardjr |
Valm, I have children and they are all grown so even though I cannot hold them tonight it sounds like it would be a good idea that I tell them that I love them. I, too, wrestle with the idea of God's good pleasure. I would like to share my experience so far, but it might good for all for me to deliberate a little longer on the subject. I feel like the older I become the less I know. Richardjr | ||
| Lydell |
Ah, Valerie, then my guess is this is a male child? In which case it sounds like he is 1000% male. Your example is the most obvious one to consider, Valerie. Look at your children and think "God made one of them for salvation, and made the other to fry in hell". No, that is NOT God! | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Everyone of you: JUST LEAVE IT TO THE MOMMIES! It really appears to me that you really think that I took this "doctrine" from my top hat. It really seems as if you never heard of Presbyterians, Reformed, Christian Reformed and other demoninations that believe in this "doctrine". There is no shortage of people in their churches and they are very open about their own brand of Calvinism. At least, I have a little fun with it whereas they are stern, formal and seem not to be enjoying God's Grace. But they do believe most everything I write here and they have been around for ages! The Bible does say CLEARLY AND IRREFUTABLY AND SO FAR NO ONE COULD SHOW ME ONE IOTA OF EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY that God simply does not care for some people. All I hear is the same EMOTIONAL analogy about motherhood, WHICH IS FINE, AFTER ALL WE ARE EMOTIONAL BEINGS. My services are very emotional. However, emotions play no part WHEN IT COMES TO studying God's Word. We either accept what is in it or consider the Bible defamatory and horrific. The question is that the fact the God loved some and some He only used to carry His plan through eternity is obvious in the Bible. I cited scriptures upon scriptures, and the scriptures that were cited back to me speak either of the other "elect" which is Israel, upon whom we are engrafted, or "sheep that have gone astray" meaning someone who has already been chosen before by God. They are not a your regular unrepentant sinner! Thus, those scriptures should be EXEGETED in the light of their timing, purpose, and the target audience. They are inspired by God and inerrant. But it was also inspired and inerrant to kill lambs of sacrifice, but we do not do this anymore. So, to use scriptures to the wrong target audience as a MANDATE OR COVENANT that has no timing nor its own place in the Revelation of God, drives people to cultistic denominations such as the one GOD RESCUED SOME OF YOU FROM! As a subject in my apologetics class I studyed adventism as such a cult. They use things that are in the INERRANT Bible but are away from its timing in God's administration of His Revelation. They want people to follow them today. What I mean is that,to quote scriptures geared to the people of Israel as the "elect" people of God as though they are for the regular sinner that never knew neither the law of God (Moses) nor ever cared about God is not a wise way to interpret the Bible! I said before that some prefer to keep this forum as a support Group. Like the AAA (ADVENTISTS ADNONIMOUS OF AMERICA), for example. This is fine. I prefer support groups that are based upon personal relationships and not cyber space and band width. However, if in an open discussion of serious issues of the Word of God these matters are dealt with here with emotions and prejudice, I'd suggest that those who do not want to have another side of the issue presented to them simply ignore posts such as mine. But to be blasphemous and call that which the Bible teaches "horrific" and "defamatory" (as though one is now God's attorney), based upon limited knowledged of the issue, and worse, in emotion and not reason, is dangerous. I have centuries of church history to proof that what is horrific is the following: GOD TELLS ME THAT I AM UNCAPABLE SAVE MYSELF, AND AT THE SAME TIME HE REQUIRES ME TO CHOOSE TO BE SAVED, MAKING THAT VERY CHOICE MY SALVATION.... This is a "god" worse than that of the Muslim since is a "god" that demands the very thing I am uncapable of doing! A "god" who says "I did my part now you do yours, or else..." I am passionate about this blasphemous slanders against the God of Abraham, of Isac, of Jacob and My God! My He does not need me as His attorney! He can deffend Himself and has done very well for 2000 years! This type of doctrine is really the horrific one and the reason why "christians" are mocked today! I want to ask any mother or father in this forum: Can your love for any of your children somehow save him or her? I guess the answer is obvious! Then why all these comparisons as though our love for our children matches the love of God for His elect! Well, Jesus prophesied:...If I had not shortened these days, EVEN THE ELECT would be deceived... So, one of the benefits of the ELECT is PROTECTION AGAINST DECEPTION! And another question to moms and dads in the forum: A long question. IF (a big if) you like emotions over intellect: If one of your children had a deadly disease, but was unaware of it and you had the correct medicine to cure him and the ONLY AND RIGHT DOSE TO CURE HIM, and your child would persistently refuse to take it, and you insisted and coaxed and cajoled, but still he would refuse to take it, would you say: Well, I have to respect his will and let him die since he does not want the medicine I am offering, or would you find someway to shove the medicine down his throat by putting in his pop soda, his water, his soup or whatever JUST TO SAVE YOUR MEDICINE REJECTING SON FROM CERTAIN DEATH! Would you force your child to take the medicine anyway just to save him because you love him? Let's say that this was the only dose and you had a NEIGHBOR'S CHILD, that had the same disease and wanted that dose you have. Would you give the medicine to the neighbor's child and let your own child die? I am sure the answer is a resounding YES! HOWEVER YOU DO NOT WANT TO GIVE THIS RIGHT TO GOD, TO SAVE THOSE WHOM HE WANTS TO SAVE! I PRAISE GOD FOR HIS IMMENSE LOVE THAT DID NOT WAIT UNTIL I CHOSE TO TAKE THE MEDICINE: HE GAVE IT TO ME REGARDLESS OF MY WILL, ACCORDING TO HIS GOOD PLEASURE. He took the curse so that I may now be blessed, He took the stripes so that I may now be healed! I wonder what Judas's mom thought about Jesus going to the cross and then what Jesus mom thought about Judas mom when HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD? What can all these motherly love do for the eternal life of a child? Can a mother die in the cross, and if she does, WILL GOD ACCEPT THIS AS A SACRIFICE? This is CRUEL! YES! But the Bible tells us that even a mother can forget his children, but GOD WILL NEVER LEAVE HIS ELECT! I wonder what the "bad thief's" mom thought about Jesus when he saved the "other thief" in the cross, BUT LEFT HER OWN SON GO TO HELL JUST BECAUSE HE DID NOT ASK! This is laughable! IF GOD WOULD LOVE AS A MOTHER LOVE IS PORTRAYED HERE IN THIS DISCUSSION, THEN GOD WOULD NOT HAVE A NEED TO SEND JESUS TO DIE. HE IS SOVEREIGN: HE COULD JUST HAVE SAVED US ALL, LIKE MOMMY! AND WHY ALLOW JESUS TO SUFFER AND DIE! HE IS SOVEREIGN, HE COULD JUST SAVE US ALL AND NOT KILL THE "ELDER" SON TO SAVE THE OTHERS. JUST LIKE MOMMY I am stepping out of what I want to see as a little class on my part, so I will just suggest: Let's tear up the Bible and allow moms and dads determine our "christian tenets of faith". Is either Grace or my will. No evidence that it is Grace plus my will. It is Grace plus nothing! I know now why anyone who attempts any theological reasoning here is attacked by the same people over and over again. No wonder God had to rescue some from Ellen and her bunch! Next study Who, How and Why we're saved. There are three hundred scriptures that everything God did, He did because of "His name sake". HE DID NOT OWE ANYTHING TO ME, HOWEVER, HE SAVED ME! THIS IS LOVE! A LOVE THAT IS BEYOND ANY LOVE THAT ANY MOTHER COULD EVER HAVE HAD! He did not save me because of me! He saved me because of Him! The Bible is about God and not me! John says that "all things were created by Him and FOR HIS PLEASURE THEY WERE CREATED". It is not about me! But He loved me and saved me! To be continued.... Grace Ambassador | ||
| Valm |
Dear GA, I will not read our posts but I will pray for you and those who follow you. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Correction to the above: GA I will not read YOUR posts but I will pray for you and those who follow you. And this is meant with the utmost of sincerity. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
More verses from our Bible to assure us of our Election in Christ Jesus!!!! He is able to save completely those who come to God through him because he always lives to intercede for them Hebrews 7:25 I tell you the truth, WHOEVER hears my word and beleives him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death into life John 5:24 Thank GOD that there are no qualifications to who is whoever!!!! Valerie |
