| Author |
Message |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 223
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 10:27 pm: |     |
Dennis, thank you for the above. I didn't realize that it wasn't until the 12th century that annihilationism was considered OK instead of heresy.
Like you, we have also heard hell and eternal punishment preached and taught, both from the pulpit and in Bible studies. I am thankful that God helped us see the Biblical reality of the subject even before we heard it preached; it helped us hear and learn more clearly.
I have actually felt relieved once I began to see hell as eternal. Somehow God's justice and sovereignty seem more absolute and complete. I still find myself feeling amazed that the sovereign God actually loves us and equips us to feel (not just think!) love for him!
Colleen |
Steve
Registered user
Username: Steve
Post Number: 33
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 2:43 pm: | |
Dennis,
Thank you for the excellent overview of annihilationism. To see the difference between SDA and Evangelical Christians view of history shows the twisted/deceptive use of history by SDAs, especially Froom, whom many look to as a "great" historian within SDAism.
Perhaps he is viewed as "great" because his volumes are "great" BIG volumes!
Thanks, again, Dennis.
Steve |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 70
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 5:28 pm: | |
This week I had a somewhat amusing, although serious, conversation with an Adventist apologist about the reality of hell. He asked me where hell is located. Furthermore, using human reasoning, he felt that people today should be able to pinpoint its exact location if it really existed near the earth or under its surface.
I then asked him, "Do you know where heaven is?" He replied, "No!" I continued, utilizing his logic, that astronauts and satellites probing space should be able to pinpoint heaven's location as well. Finally, I asked him, "If you don't know where heaven is actually located, does that make it unreal or totally imaginary?" Of course, I told him that heaven and hell are in another dimension--not visible to the human eye.
I hope he got my point, but I'm not sure it soaked in very far.
Dennis Fischer |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 40
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 6:40 pm: | |
Dennis,
I like the question you asked him. What did he answer?? I know I should not laugh at him, and I will get over after a while and will really feel pity and sorrow for him. Then I will pray for him, but right now I am being very human and am smiling.
Diana |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 309
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 9:15 am: | |
I've asked those types of questions in the past and find they usually just run to some other topic they "know" they're right about until they can forget the conversation. I guess my skepticism is hanging out. I also think that was a great point. |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 601
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 8:53 pm: | |
The Jly 2004 issue od The Signs of the Times has ANOTHER article about the SDA spin on the state ofthe dead. How come this is such an important doctrine to them? And, how come they just don't read John 3:16, accept it for what it says and get on with life? |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 12:13 pm: | |
The response to that final question is simple. In order to support the SDA doctrine of Investigative Judgment there can be no souls already with Jesus. Instead all of the dead must be in a state of suspended animation until after the Investigative Judgment is completed. (Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.) |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 396
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 9:19 am: | |
I'm fascinated that somehow having your soul with Jesus means you have received your eternal reward or eternal body. I've never met anyone who has taught that. When you ask what being with Jesus is like, you'll probably get a philosophical answer, not a scriptural point by point because it doesn't exist. The Lazarus story shows us that people are together and in some state of consciousness, but to say they're walking streets of gold seems a stretch since scripture clearly does define rewards and immortal body as a post-resurrection thing. As Colleen said in the other thread on this topic, the specifics of what our "presence with the Lord" looks like is not known, but I don't think many of us are skipping ahead to the post-resurrection state. The point of Paul's words in 1 Thess were so people would be comforted, not find another point to argue about. People create a lot of fancy imagery of death, particularly at the passing of a loved one. A hospice pastor I know calls it comfort words. It's things they tell themselves to cope with the passing of a loved one. But if you asked those people at a non-tragedy time their Biblical views on what death is, most wouldn't be able to give anything specific from the Bible. Beyond knowing believers go to heaven at death, the state of the dead is just not an issue non-SDAs talk about. I think SDAs create more fanciful stories about what "we" believe than any I've heard. And none from any pulpit. It's just pure marketing...have to find that distinguishing characteristic to make people choose your brand of religion over the other guy's. |
Sheryl
Registered user
Username: Sheryl
Post Number: 11
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 11:57 am: | |
I never really knew until recently what "paradise" meant. Jesus's statement to the thief on the cross did not make sense to me until I studied about the the use of Greeks not using punctuation because the language did not require it, the words said it all. The story of the rich man and Lazarus made sense once I understood that Abraham's bosem and Paradise were used interchangebly, torments is where the unbelievers went. I also believe that Jesus himself would not use error to teach a spiritual truth. |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 273
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 3:41 pm: | |
Can someone provide the EGW quote where she says that Jesus did not know whether He would come out of the grave?
I'm working on a Sunday school class lesson and I'm going crazy trying to find this quote....
Thanks! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 625
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 8:33 pm: | |
Sorry--I don't know! I remember hearing it, though! It sounds like it might be Desire of Ages, though it could Great Controversy...
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 150
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 8:35 pm: | |
Loneviking,
Here is the infamous quote from Ellen White:
"The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice" DA, p. 753.
NOTE: Of course, the above EGW statement contradicts the following Bible passages: John 2:19; John 10:18;Matt. 26:65; Luke 24:7.
In awe of Calvary,
Dennis J. Fischer |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 274
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 10:08 pm: | |
Thanks so much Dennis. My small church has a lot of baby Christians and I'm springing heresy on them to see just how much they REALLY know about basic Christianity. I feed them plenty of texts (warped of course) to see if I can get them to take the bait and accept whatever statement I'm working with. If they do, then I show them why the statement is wrong, where the hermaneutic went wrong and how to know when someone is pulling the wool over their eyes.
It is truly amazing the amount of heresy and the complexity of deceit that is among Christians of all sorts.
Bill |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 884
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 11:48 pm: | |
That quote by egw contradicts the prophecy in Isaiah and also the Christmas story, "Unto us, this day a Saviour is born". |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 627
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 8:23 am: | |
That quote from DA, Dennis, is one more denigration of the deity of Jesus. Of course he knew the outcome! If he was merely human with a spirit that was nothing more than breath, then I'm sure he couldn't have known. But He was God, and His spirit knew the Father. After all, his death was an accomplished fact from the creation of the world--and Jesus was part of that plan. Ellen also says Jesus went to the Father and offered to die for sinners AFTER Adam and Eve sinned. The angels, she said, waited in suspense, wondering what would happen. She says he went before the Father 3 times to plead to be able to die, and finally the Father consented. That is just heresy!
I'm increasingly appalled at how subtly but thoroughly Ellen convinced us all that Jesus was sweet, loving, and well-meaning, but his power and authority were really limited. No wonder Adventists in general--liberal or conservative--have a badly skewed understanding of Jesus even if they say the right words about him. They really don't know the Jesus of the Bible! They know Jesus as interpreted by Ellen. |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 458
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 8:41 am: | |
So, I wonder if that's one of the passages that will be reproduced in "The passion of Love" or whatever that book is??? Wouldn't that raise a few evangelical eyebrows! |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 275
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 11:05 pm: | |
I checked and it's there on p. 69. I don't know if evangelicals will catch it or not. I'm finding out that many of them don't catch these non Biblical statements. I guess they aren't as used to looking for and identifying them as we are. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 636
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 2:07 pm: | |
Wow, it's there?!
You're right, Bill, about most Christians being far less aware of the non-Biblical statements. Perhaps our sensitivity is part of God's redemption of our past--but it surely does make us hyper aware of certain things! That's probably good, though, even though many Christians don't understand why we're so vocal about these things!
Colleen |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 276
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 11:12 pm: | |
That's what I want to teach them---why it's important to really examine a statement and compare what is said to scripture. Far too many christians today seem to be so open minded that their brains seem to have fallen out!
Bill |
