| Author | Message | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 33 Registered: 1-2004 |
Very interesting views and conclusions, thank you. Reading these really cleared more up this thing. I have been always very puzzled about this because Bible says so different than EGW&SDAs. But as you know they are able to explain Bible as they will. All those verses where Bible clearly says about eternal hell and soul tormented is just metaphorical. And that CWB totally destroys rest of Bibles message about that. I found these verses which enlightens what the hell is: Matt.13:50, Matt. 25:46, James 3:6. I think as many of yours that hell and state of dead is something we 3D people canĄt understand. ItĄs maybe the 4. (or 5.) dimension and far beyond our mind. The only way to God to express hell and state of dead was limited to our understanding. Fire and eternal is something to express it understandable. James says the tongue is fire and tongue is a unrighteous world. It makes me think that maybe hell is something like that, eternal unrighteous state. People who has chosen to live like that can continue it forever. In this world they still have God in their lives as Bible says many ways and times. But there they donĄt have GodsĄ mercy and protection anymore. But still this is really something incomprehensible. We are so limited and maybe too much try to understand GodsĄthoughts. ThatĄs why Jesus said: Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven. IĄm so full of praise that Jesus came to me and said: Get up and follow me. Tuija | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 181 Registered: 12-2003 |
Tuija, I completely empathize with your gratitude that Jesus came specifically to you and asked you to follow him. I have often marveled that Jesus chose ME and personally beckoned me to follow him. It's been interesting to discover since being born again in Jesus that other Christ-followers also have that very personal sense that Jesus chose them. It lends real credibility to the Bible's statements that before we were born, God knew us. Those statements always seemed like some kind of metaphors to me in the past; now, however, I know they're real! Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 70 Registered: 2-2003 |
I discovered something interesting when checking out Hebrews 10: 26-27 in the original Greek. This says, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sin is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." At first glance, this verse would seem to support anihilation, but this is not the case. The Greek says "fire is about to consume." There are several infinitives in Greek. If the author had wished to say that consumption would be completed followed by non-existence, he would have used the aorist infinitive, indicating an action at a single point in time. However, the present infinite active is used, which indicates continous or repeated action. This means that the state of being consumed will start at some time in the future, and then carry on for ever as a continously present experience. A terrifying prospect indeed, but this is certainly in agreement with the rest of the New Testament. I finally went to see the Passion film yesterday in Budapest, with my friend Gyula, the almost-SDA at one point, but now no longer. We were both pretty overwhelmed. It really spoke to both of us of how much Jesus went through to rescue us from the above prospect. And God obviously found it worth while to allow his Son to suffer so much in order to have eternal fellowship with those who accept this sacrifice. Another quote from Hebrews occurred to us, "How shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?" (2: 3). God bless, Adrian | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 288 Registered: 7-2003 |
Wow, very interesting Adrian. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 186 Registered: 12-2003 |
What an insight, Adrian. Thank you. | ||
| Terryk Registered user Username: Terryk Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2002 |
I wonder if Jesus went through this how hard on God was all this we do not talk much about that. As a parent I feel it would not be able to put in words what he must have felt for all the years Jesus was here. Just a thought. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 21 Registered: 3-2004 |
To God time and money do not mean the same as it does to us. This is illustrated by the following: Mr Smith had the opportunity to ask God, What does a million years mean to you? God answered, A moment. Well, God, what does a million dollars mean to you? God's answer, A penny. God, Can I have a penny he asked? In a moment, God answered. | ||
| Conniegodenick Registered user Username: Conniegodenick Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2004 |
One last question on this topic: if the wicked will be resurrected so that they can experience hell, where do the wicked go when they die? Are they already in hell? If they ARE already in hell, what point is the resurrection for them? Just some questions. | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 79 Registered: 10-2001 |
I think the purpose is so that they can be judged. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 190 Registered: 12-2003 |
Connie, the Bible really isn't clear where they go. Revelation says death and Hades give up the dead that are in them at the Great White Throne judgment, and then death and Hades are thrown into the lade of fire. (Revelation 20:13-14) I don't think we can say for sure "where" they are, but they are waiting somewhere NOT with Christ for their resurrection. God apparently didn't want us to fully understand this mystery in this life. Probably, in fact, we would be unable to understand it in our mortal state. Colleen | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 588 Registered: 7-2000 |
I was thinking this morning about this whole issue of understanding death for the believer. It seems to me that the SDA teaching really keeps the believer chained to the body. It really is saying that, after all, the believers relationship with God is thru our minds alone. I think there is such a strong analogy to what my mom is going thru. Most of you know that my mother had a stroke in December that took away her ability to communicate. (She is getting better...praise God!) Now she can communicate just a bit with gestures, facial expression, and some little writing, and speech. But I watch her intense frustration when she wants to just simply TALK about some thought she has had. Can't do it, it just won't come out. It is a literal chain. How she longs to just open her mouth and let the words flow. The SDA view of death is so similar. All the potential for relationship with God is there in that dead believer, but there's a great chain wrapped around them so the relationship can't happen. They say, "it is really only like the blink of an eye". But my mother will tell you that even if the time is only that short, it is still a chain. A chain is a chain. Have any of the rest of you noticed what a difference it makes to realize the difference now in your understanding of how you relate to God? To me there is just a freedom in recognizing that my relationship with God is NOT just in my thoughts. There is something deeper involved that canot be constrained by time or the physical. It is a very real unbroken freedom. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 198 Registered: 12-2003 |
Lydell, I've pondered the same thing. Knowing Jesus really is much deeper than having the knowledge about him. It's not in our minds, although our minds inform our understanding and knowing. I also believe that the Adventist view of death chains us to a belief that our relationship with Him is physical/mental. (Great metaphor, Lydell!) In fact, I've pondered the idea that the Adventist "health message" is born out of this very physical view of life. Adventists really have nothing to nurture EXCEPT their bodies! It's all about having a "clear mind" so they can think well, understand, and perceive the Holy Spirit. Further, they're obligated to having that healthy body so they can offer the Holy Spirit a suitable temple! Health really does become the means to knowing God when you don't believe you have a Spirit! The reality, as you described above, is truly "something deeper...that cannot be constrained by time or the physical." Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 37 Registered: 1-2004 |
Yes Lydell and Colleen, I agree you both. I have been amazed of my inner life since the last and biggest piece dropped (the sabbath question) in itĄs place and I really FELT Christ prensence inside me. ItĄs nothing you can describe to anyone. Words are so insufficient media. Before this I never understood what it meant that you can ask Jesus to move into your heart. I asked and asked but didnĄt feel nothing. ItĄs inner life that has gone through modification but you just canĄt describe it. He isnĄt just in my heart, He is all over me. He fills me wholly. The power of Holy Spirit is real and something incredible. ItĄs so sad that SDAs donĄt really believe it but they keep puttinĄ rules and regulations to people and think that Holy Spirit will effect people by obeying them. Impossible formula! Praise God of that power we have experienced! Tuija | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 204 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Tuija, Praise God indeed! Colleen | ||
| Frost Registered user Username: Frost Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2004 |
I've always thought about the dead as sleeping. I have had a few surgeries and when they used Sodium Pentathol I really don't remember anything.. perhaps near as death as can be. No thoughts.. no dreams, no nothing, just black. I awoke hours later and it seemed like just a moment, a blink of time. I envisioned that was what death was like. We are unconcious, not hearing not dreaming, not knowing, and when Jesus returns the dead in christ are resurrected and meet him in the sky. I imagine that to the Christian that was involved in an accidental death 100 year or more before that, that it would seem like just a second ago that he was doing what he was doing before he died, and now Jesus is here. Hell and earth (or dirt) are quite synonomous in their use in the bible, and sleep and death are also used in similar descriptions. Jesus told Mary, "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to the Father, but go unto my bretheren and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God." Now, this is on the 3rd day that Jesus is saying this. And, of course the Bible was originally written in Greek with no puncuation marks.. so the statement to the one thief " Truthfully I say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise" would then make sense and meaning. Perhaps to that thief, when awakened at the second comming, it will seem to him as a blink of an eye but over 2000 years have passed already, but to him it has no time or meaning. It will have seemed like just a blink of the eye in time. | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 44 Registered: 3-2004 |
Hi Frost. You're new here, right? Glad to see another new person. I used to believe that the issue with hell, death and that was pretty simple because I had heard all the prooftexts. In reality, it's a complex subject that I've recently decided to tackle for myself. You have to look back at basic definitions, understand what it meant to people back then and also notice the differences in understanding between the Old and New Testament. For me, the jury's still out, but I have changed from my former Adventist beliefs. Praise God... | ||
| Hoytster Registered user Username: Hoytster Post Number: 70 Registered: 9-2003 |
Hi, Frost! Post number 1 -- a good thing! A big step? I congratulate you on joining this forum, and pray that you receive all blessings from your journey with Christ. Welcome! I wanted to respond to a couple lines in your post. "I have had a few surgeries and when they used Sodium Pentathol I really don't remember anything.. perhaps near as death as can be." I am listening to a tape by Bernie Siegel MD; he talks about a physician who had a transcriber take down everything said in the operating room as the patient was under anesthesia. Later, under hypnosis, the patients could recall word-for-word the conversation in the OR. "Truthfully I say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise" I don't know your story, Frost, but apparently you have an SDA background. My SDA-ness is only second-hand; I was involved with one for a decade. The SDA shows in your statement above. That scripture was referenced just a few weeks ago, because it was spoken in Gibson's "Passion" movie (of course), and someone in this forum joked about "The SDAs will be telling each other where the comma goes!" (or words to that effect). I hadn't heard of that construct before, and thought it was funny. Your placement of the comma after "today" seems patently wrong to a never-SDA like me. Not to argue TOO much -- please don't take this as a rebuke, and please post again and again! This forum is for discussing such things, right? But... Jesus' use of the word "say" means "today", because "say" is the present tense. Thus, the subsequent "today" doesn't add any meaning to the sentence, given your placement of the comma. Assuming that Jesus is perfect in His use of language, as He is in everything, Jesus would not have used "today" redundantly. The "today" only adds meaning, if it means that "you shall be with me in paradise today." That's how I see it, anyway. This link: http://web.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/soulslep.htm has a pretty thorough presentation on the topic, if you're interested. I believe that I read that soul sleep is only a doctrine of SDAs and Jehovahs Witnesses, and that the latter (if I recall) got it from the former. I tend not to be concerned about such things; it is one of those not-even-remotely-salvation issues that will be revealed to us someday. Welcome and God bless! - Hoytster | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 591 Registered: 7-2000 |
Frost, the idea that the righteous dead are only sleeping simply does not agree with what Christ taught. For instance, in the bread of life discourse in Jhn 5 and 6, Christ says that if we eat and drink Him, then we already have eternal life, and we will not die. He repeated this is John 8;51 "I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." And in John 17:1-3 we learn that "eternal life" is knowing Him. For that to be true, then some part of us has to continue to live when this shell of a body has died. We know from numerous passages in the NT that the part that continues to live is our spirit. When Christ died and was resurrected, He destroyed death and brought life and immortality. (II Tim. 1:10) In I John 5:11-13 John tells us that "God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life (that is present tense)...I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have (that's pesent tense) eternal life." As an SDA, you have been told that we are only body and breath and that when the breath is seperated from the body, you cease to exist. But the scriptures indicate that your "body" "soul" and "spirit" are seperate things. You need to go to the scriptures for yourself and examine the issue. You might begin with these to check out just what the scriptures mean by these terms. It is the beginning point for understanding what happens at death. Isiah 42:5 Matthew 10:28 Hebrews 4:12 I Thess. 5:23 Acts 7:59-60 John 19:31 Matt. 27:50 Luke 8:5-55 James 2:26 John 11:33 I Cor. 2:11 Rom.8:16 | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 63 Registered: 4-2000 |
Welcome, Frost! I am glad that you joined our discussions. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 208 Registered: 12-2003 |
Welcome, Frost! We're glad you're here. Colleen |
