| Author | Message | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 718 Registered: 11-2002 |
Welcome, Belva. It will be wonderful reading your stories. You story about the toast was touching. Today my boozer Sabbath School teaching cousin spent the day with us. The conversation got to patrotic songs being sung in church. I often feel so left out of conversations among my kin because the tension gets too much if I mention anything about any other church except a Sabbath keeping church, generally SDA but the others are accepatble within limits to my kin, too. So they had a conversation about patrotic songs being sung in church and I kept my mouth shut. I would have liked to feel free to say that where I attend on a weekly basis the congreation regurally sings patrotic songs with gusto and at the entrance into the narthax is a corkboard and on the top it says in big red, white and blue letters, "Called To Serve" and it has pictures of the sons, daughters and loved ones who are members of the congreation who are in our armed forces with a breif write up on each person. I would have liked to mention that at each service the pastor asks Gods wisdom be bestowed upon our president, our congressional leaders and our military advisors and that our troops are kept safe and that the Christians in our military can not only serve our country but also be a witness for Jesus. I would have liked to felt comfortable enough to say those things. Once again though I bit my tongue and said nothing. I'm 53 years old. I'm tired of being yelled at and/or told off by my SDA kin when they get it under their skin to lash out at me. I think they feel betrayed. I have actually been told that after all the money that was spent on me to attend SDA schools I owed it to my parents to be SDA. Hey, there were perfectly good public schools I could have gone to. It was their choice. I was the kid. I honestly say nothing about anything I ever hear or read from where I attend church to any of my kin. This does not include my own children. My own children are cool with whatever I want to do. I guess I got off topic. Sorry. Anyway, Belva, it's good to meet you. Are you in the United States? | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2004 |
Here's something to think about. Jesus told the Jewish leaders of his day that if they destroy "this temple" (his body) He will raise it up again in three days. Now we know that Jesus rose again from the dead and He ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of the throne of God. So, His body, the temple, is in heaven. And we know that there is a temple, a building, a tabernacle, immortal in heaven, namely Jesus Christ. We also know that our body is the temple of the Lord. We are also the body of Christ. Revelation says that there is no need of a temple in the new Jerusalem because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple, "And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it", Rev 21:22. John 14:2-3 says that in the Father's house are many abiding places or places to stay. He goes there to prepare a place for us. And if He goes there he will come again to receive us to Himself. So, here we are in our earthly body, our earthly temple or tabernacle and Jesus is the heavenly temple. Our body is not really our own, it is the temple of the Lord, the body of Christ, in whom resides the Spirit of Christ. I guess my point is that the building we have, eternal in the heavens, is the eternal body that ascended into heaven after He was resurrected and is now sitting on the right hand of the throne of God. Christ's Spirit lives in us, the many abiding places, and is preparing a place for us. And when all the places are prepared, He will then come to receive us to Him. I am beginning to believe that at death our spirit takes up residence in the body of Christ, which is in heaven. I am starting to think that we are preserved in Christ, literally. When our bodies die, our spirit, which is joined to the Holy Spirit, takes up residence in the body of Christ, our eternal building in the heavens. I think the bible is quite clear that we don't receive our immortal bodies until Christ returns and we are either changed, if still living, or resurrected, if dead. I know this sounds a little nuts but I have studied this quite a bit, both sides of the death issue, and so far this is what I have concluded. Now, for the feedback.  Doug | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 2 Registered: 7-2004 |
Thank you so much for the warm welcome. Yes, I'm from the U.S. Must of my education was in SDA schools, and from my experience out in the world I have gotten a good education, too. Didn't get to learn much about Shakespeare, etc., but that is another whole discussion. I am third generation SDA on one side, and I don't know how many on the other side. We had people who were in (SDA's) and out (all the rest) while I was growing up. My aunts, uncles and cousins who were out were always more fun to be around than the ins. Otherwise I had a fairly normal SDA upbringing. Once I got out on my own I started questioning things. Like I said, I drifted out of the church in my mid-20's (read late '60's-early '70's). I faithfully attended church but became tired of having half of the service devoted to the sale of this or that church paper to be sent to who knows what list, and after that having two or three specific offerings taken up. I really went to church to hear the message, and the message I was hearing was that they needed lots of money. I met my husband while I was "out" so he is not SDA. He used to kid me about belonging to an extreme fundamentalist church. I returned to the SDA church when a classmate of mine began pastoring a nearby church. The kids were small, and I wanted them to know "the truth." I talked my husband into letting them attend a local SDA church school because of my own experience in church school (weird, huh?). Turned out that my daughter was mildly dislexic and they didn't have the proper tools to handle that so I took them both out and put them into public school. I still stayed faithful, going to church each weekend, on Sabbaths to the SDA church, on Sundays to the Presbyterian church. We were getting our messages then! Then I had a wake-up experience. I was "sharing my faith" at work one day with a co-worker who was a former Catholic. We both believed (and still do) that this earth is in it's last days before Christ's return. I mentioned that the review of the saints had been going on since 1844 and surely it wouldn't take too much longer for that to go on, then Jesus could return to earth. She asked me what I was talking about, and since we both kept a Bible at our desks I offered to show it to her in her Bible. I'm of the opinion that if something is a Biblical truth, you can find it in almost any translation. She had a Catholic Bible, and when I turned to Daniel 7, her's said "evenings and mornings" rather than "days." She then proceeded to point out to me that that particular prophecy had been fulfilled in Macabeean times and that the Jewish people now celebrate its completion during Hanukhah. I tried to think of a way around that and realized that the only proof I had was to leave the scriptures and go to SDA folklore and two men in a corn field trying to justify the Great Disappointment. I slunk away. That evening when I got home I found a flyer in the mail advertising a book called "Sabbath in Crisis" by Dale Ratzlaff. When I received that book I read it through almost in one sitting. It came in on a Friday night and I read throughtout the weekend. What a liberating experience that was. A year or so later I purchased Dale's second book, "The Cultic Doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist Church." That was a traumatic read. I read that one straight through as well, and at the end of it I called Dale directly and talked to him for a while. What a wonderful pastor he is! I was angry, shaking, and sobbing while I talked to him, and he hung in there with me! He counseled me not to do anything rash, but that night I packed up all my EGW books, after erasing my name out of them, of course, and took them to the porch of the pastor's study at a local SDA church, and left them there. It was a big box--they probably looked at it like manna from heaven. I wanted them out of the house so my kids wouldn't read them by accident and turn out as confused as I was. I then passed my books (Dale's books) to my pastor at the time. I asked him to rebut, if possible, the statements made in both books. He had them in his hands for over a year, and I didn't get them back until he transferred to another church. H couldn't even face me--he slipped them through my mail slot with a note attached saying that he was an SDA, but not for the reasons mentioned in the books. I walked away from SDAism on that day and never looked back, except to pray for and with loved ones who are still enmired. I have a couple of cousins on my father's side who have also studied their way out, and we support each other. When we are together with the family we tend to cling to each other. My family on my mother's side is all over the map religiously, so gatherings with them are much more interesting! Thank you for letting me tell my story. I thank God I had a faithful father and mother, and that they instilled in me a hunger for spiritual things. I also remember seeing the fear in their eyes when they were facing eternity and still believed in soul sleep--read temporary annihilation. I like to think that when they fell asleep in Jesus they had a good laugh with the Savior on the other side. I firmly believe that my faithful loved ones who have passed away are NOW with Jesus, and will be among the saints mentioned in 2 Thessalonians, chapter 4. Scripture has never spoken of angels as saints, so the saints that Jesus will bring with him when he returns will be those who fell asleep trusting Him for their eternity. (Do I need to post this portion of my comments in the discussion about soul sleep, or is that a dead issue?!) Thank you for letting me rattle on. I'm 58 years old, have been free of my blinders now for about 15 years, and I thank God for his wonderful Gospel of Grace. So glad I don't have to be good, now I'm free to have Him make me what he needs me to be. Love and grace to all of you. Belva | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 358 Registered: 1-2003 |
Doug. I have come to the same conclusion. How can our Spirit know nothing (be dead or asleep) if it is the Spirit of God who is very much alive. I have come to believe that to believe in soul sleep is pretty much denying Jesus' power and His very words that tell us "those who are dead will live and those who live will never die...do you believe this?" and the sad fact is...many don't. I don't believe people are up walking around in heaven but I do believe (and I almost feel as if it was given to my by revelation) that our souls return to Jesus' physical body, etc. and that we are with Him. Now before the cross and ressurrection...sure, I believe soul sleep was exactly what happened...but everything changed after the cross, how sad people would rather dwell on some obscure verse in Ecclesiastes instead of the very words of Jesus! And, nothing makes an SDA madder (not even challenging the Sabbath) than the state of the dead. I have seen them practiacally become violent over it (during discussing it). Now what does that tell you about that doctrine? Who is it from? | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 359 Registered: 1-2003 |
Another thought on heaven...I think some people will have to adjust themselves when they are handed crowns, rings, jewels...a great glass of perfect heavenly wine (remember, Jesus said He wouldn't drink it again until we were with Him in heaven-and it wasn't pure fresh grape juice as some SDA think...it was wine) etc. And...I plan on having a vinyard, and a house with wallpaper made out of live flowers...and I am having you all over for dinner. Plan on it! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 264 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thank You Belva, for telling your story. I am always amazed how God leads each of us, in the many different ways that He does. It is all done to bring us to Him. Every time I read about some one leaving the SDA church and finding out what the gospel is really about I praise God. God works on us before we realize He is doing it. It reminds me of the text, "before you call I will answer, and while you are yet speaking, I will hear". Our God is an awesome God. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 432 Registered: 12-2003 |
Belva, thank you for your story. I understand your anger and trauma and those "Ellen moments" when you suddenly realize that there is no Bible passage to support what you really belived was biblical! (Some of mine were the little black cloud the size of a man's hand signalling Jesus' coming, God resurrecting Moses, Satan as the scapegoat...) Yes, I've also come to think that when we die, our spirits are housed in Jesus until the resurrection. I remember vividly the afternoon a few years ago when I sat in the leaders' meeting with Elizabeth Inrig, our pastor's wife, going over that night's women's Bible study passage for discussion. It was 2 Corinthians 5. We talked about the tent Paul mentions and about not wanting to be unclothed at death, as Paul stated. She summed up the dilemma of what exactly happens to the spirit at that point by saying that although the passage is not explicit, the Bible suggests that somehow we are clothed in Christ until we are clothed in our resurrection bodies. It makes so much sense; as born again Christ-followers, we are already in Christ and in the Father. At death, why would our position change? We lose the mortal flesh, but the part of us that knows Jesus will continue to know and serve Him (see 2 Cor. 5:9) without the pull of our unredeemed bodies distracting us. Truly, our God is an awesome God! Colleen | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2004 |
Pheeki, please don't misunderstand what I am saying. I'll say this as gently as possible and I do not want to cause any hurt feelings. I'm not sure we are both in complete agreement here. What I said was I believe our "spirit" leaves us and takes up residence in the literal body of Christ, in heaven. I was not speaking to our "soul". The bible in the NT as well as OT makes a distinction between body, soul, and spirit. The soul and spirit are not the same thing, nor are they interchangeable. They are distinct from one another. I recently conducted an extensive personal bible study of the soul versus spirit. The results lead me to believe that the spirit is personal, rational, and feeling. I think there is plenty of support scripturally for that position. But, and this is a big but because I think this is where there is a lot of conflict of belief, I believe the bible teaches the destruction of the soul. I'm not talking eternal separation, but total and complete destruction of the lost "souls", albeit only by the one eternal God. I believe in eternal life and I believe in eternal death. In my opinion, life and death are opposites. You either live or you don't. Those of us that are alive today have to look forward to one of two alternatives. We either have eternal life in us, which comes from God, and thus establishes us as among the living, or we don't have that eternal life and thus establishes us among the dead. We are born condemned to death and are established among the dead unless we receive life eternal from Jesus Christ. Now, I am aware of the bible verses that support both sides of this issue and up to now I feel I have considered each side fairly. It's nice to think of my deceased loved ones in heaven with Jesus but in order to be fair I have to also consider the fact that some of them, at this moment, may be somewhere suffering eternal burning, before the devil himself even gets his punishment. That does not compute. Revelation 20 says that the devil gets punished, thrown in the lake of fire, before the lost souls. At best, they all get punished at the same time. Even death and hell is thrown into the lake of fire. What's up with that? Once again Pheeki, I'm not trying to cause a problem here I'm just trying follow truth where ever it leads me. In Christ's love and service, Doug | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 434 Registered: 12-2003 |
Doug, when we are in Jesus, these specifics become interesting but somewhat less-than-crucial because the Bible has not been explicit about them. I just want to observe that Revlation 20 does not say "hell" is thrown into the lake of fire; it says "hades". Hades is the Greek equivalent to the Hebrew word Sheol, and they both mean the place of the dead. The Old Testament has many references to Sheol which describe it a a place of joylessness, separation from God, and sometimes as a place where there's certain amount of cognition. In some passages, Sheol has connotations of judgment. Still, the Old Testament makes it clear that Yaweh is in charge of Sheol, and He can deliver people from it. (Ps. 139:8 and 16:10) In the aprocyphal book of Enoch, as in other later Jewish literature, Sheol is also pcitured as a place where both the righteous and the wicked dead await and experience foretastes of their final rewards or punishments. (Hence the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.) Further, Jesus holds the keys of Death and Hades, and he breaks their power, and they are banished to the lake of fire. (Revelation 2:13-14) Further, the word "hell" come from a different Greek word than does "hades". Hell is the place of final punishment, while Hades is the place of the dead. Hell consumes Hades. (For more specifics, see "The New Bible Dictionary" by Inter-Varsity Press) While it's true that one cannot absolutely prove from the Bible that the wicked suffer physically and consiously forever, still there are ample texs to suggest such is the case--and most of those texts come from the mouth of Jesus. Whatever the case, two things occur to me: first, eternal death may not be defined as we understand it inside time. In eternity, perhaps death involves a spiritual existence apart from God in eternal darkness, etc., that we cannot perceive in our limited condition. Certainly the wicked are resurrected to receive their final punishment, so they go into it with living bodies. (Whether those are the same as the immortal bodies of the righteous, we don't know for sure; but we do know they go into their final punishment with bodies given to them at their resurrection.) Second, whatever the actual eternal condition of the wicked may be, certainly eternal punishment must be as significant in a negative way as is eternal life. Further, we don't actually know WHAT hell is. The Bible says our God is a consuming fire, and it also makes it clear that He creates darkness and He creates light. Perhaps eternal punishment is a spiritual reality we can't fathom in our three-dimensional world. Whatever it is, God is sovereign over it, and He is sovereign over the lost who will spend eternity outside of Him. I believe we cannot be dogmatic about the specifics of eternity, especially hell, when the Bible is most definitely not specific! Whatever the reality is, though, it stretches the capacity of our minds to comprehend. There IS a hell to shun and an eternity with Jesus to be gained! Colleen | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2004 |
It is interesting that a discussion that started out to be a question about newfound freedom in Christ has come to be a discussion about the state of the dead, or more specifically a discussion about the unredeemed dead. I can't give you any scriptural references about this at the moment, but I think we need to look no further than the words of Jesus to know what the punishment of the wicked is. He refers to it as "being cast into outer darkness." My picture of that state is this--no physical body, totally alone, totally without stimulation. Outer darkness. If anyone needs a specific scriptural reference I will look it up and post it here for you. | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 360 Registered: 1-2003 |
I don't believe my relatives are in heaven or hell walking around. I believe that our souls (Spirit) I see them as the same (as I have not studied like you have) cannot die because we are part of Christ and He is indistructible. I don't think there are people walking around up there alreday enjoying heaven and I don't think the dead (not in Christ) are already experiencing hell...I do think there are things we don't understand...but I will say this... Jesus said we have passed from death to life and we will never die...so somehow we must be in Christ and He is in heaven. He brings people with him when he returns and then I believe we get our new bodies and return to heaven to start walking (flying) around...however, this is non-salvational and I admit I have a simple understanding of it...and it is a personal understanding between each of us and God. | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 20 Registered: 7-2004 |
Colleen, Thanks for your input. I guess it depends on which version you pick. Rev 20:14 KJV: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. NKJV: Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Noah Webster Version: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. NASB: Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. What I have found is that hell is interpreted for NT hades,OT sheol, as well as NT gehenna. I am aware of the differences in the two states of hell, specifically, hades and gehenna. Scripture says that God is able to destroy the soul in gehenna, Matthew 10:28. Jesus' soul was not left in hades, Acts 2:31. I believe that hades is destroyed in gehenna. No more death or experiencing of death. I agree, we cannot be dogmatic about the specifics of eternity. I especially like your last line on shunning of hell and an eternity with Jesus to be gained. Amen to that! Doug | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2004 |
We need to look at the meanings of words. Destroy means to take a thing and alter it so that it no longer is useful for its intended purpose. Annihilate means to do away with something completely. Please look at your Bible texts and notice which words the authors were using. I haven't studied Latin or Greek, but I do trust that God would not allow his Word to be distorted in such a way that it ends up saying something He did not intend. I had someone explain the destruction of the wicked as follows: Suppose you have a cup, as long as it is shaped like a cup, it is a cup and can be used as a cup. Shatter the cup (read destroy for shatter), and you will have all of the stuff a cup is made out of, but in its shattered state it will never work as a cup again. Jesus warned us about being taken in by someone who can "destroy our souls in hell." In that same counsel He told us that we didn't need to fear someone who could destroy our bodies. Our mortal bodies are mere fragile tents meant for our current lives on earth. They can be knocked down, blown down, cut to pieces--destroyed. But we have an eternal building, made without hands, in the heavens. Once Christ has taken hold of you He will never let go. We don't need to worry that some little petty sin will so disgust Him that He will turn His back on us. He has already paid for that sin. All we need do is remain in a state of faithful repentance, as David did. We are the vine, firmly rooted in Jesus our Christ. If He prunes us a little, ties up our branches, or supports our fruit in a manner we were not expecting, that does not mean that He has chosen to separate Himself from us. In a way I'm glad that God has chosen to keep some information obscure, like the state of the dead. It is enough to know that He has taken care of it, and that by faith we belong to Him. For that I will be eternally grateful. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 719 Registered: 11-2002 |
Pheeki, Did your kids when they were small sing "We're Gonna Have a picnic in heaven"? About all this talk about what happens to our spirits/souls after death-I try to take the Bible for just what it says. My #1 test is John 3:16. This text says, "will not die but have everlasting life." The word "everlasting" is the key word here. As to the specifics and the details of exactially what is to happen I don't concern myself with it. I figure my God is a just God. Therefore I don't get into it. I never could understand how come this topic is so important to SDA's that they even hold an official doctrine on the state of the dead that is a required agreement upon church mmembership. To have that as an official doctrine in my way of thinknig can only take the focus off Jesus. But, them, the SDA church, no matter what they say they do not put their main focus on Jesus. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 198 Registered: 5-2002 |
Belvalew, you said something that caught my interest. "All we need do is remain in a state of faithful repentance, as David did." Can you elaborate on this point, and provide some Scriptural support for this claim? Thank you | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2004 |
Dear Freeatlast, I was simply alluding to the fact that David, a known sinner by our standards, was called "A Man After God's Own Heart." I think that is because whenever his error was pointed out to him he repented. In particular, and I don't have time to look it up right now, but it can probably be found in one of the Chronicles, when Naham went to David and confronted him about Bathsheba, David immediately repented. The baby conceived out of wedlock died shortly after he was born, and the loss of that child cut David to the bone because he took it upon himself as being a direct reflection of God's disfavor on his behavior. At no time, however, did David give up and look upon himself as being unworthy to go to God and beg forgiveness, no matter how many times he erred and had to beg forgiveness again. I've known too many former SDA's who became formers and completely gave up on seeking the Face of God because they had adjudged themselves as unsaveable. None of us are unsaveable. All sins, even those of the wicked who will not see Heaven, were paid for at the Cross of Jesus. When I think of that I am amazed at the strength of Christ carrying that burden to the cross, and then to Death's Door itself. He did that for you and me. Once we have accepted by faith that his sacrifice at the cross has completely paid the price, for all time, for all sin, we are His. End of story. Grafted into the vine to stay. Look around yourself. You can recognize the people who have accepted their status as redeemed by Christ. They seem to live in a state of repentance/grace. There is a certain joy and caringness that surrounds these people. They have completely relaxed and given their lives to their redeemer. That doesn't mean they are without sin, it just means they are forgiven, both now, and evermore. I'll be back and try to give actual texts. Right now I'm only going on what I recall from reading about the great heroes in the Bible. I like David because he was so fallible, but so trusting in his God. Belva | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 267 Registered: 3-2004 |
Belva, I really like what you wrote above: "Grafted into the vine to stay". That is me also and I know I cannot do it by myself. I NEVER want to be separated again. I remember when I read my son the story of David and Bathsheba. He was less than 9 years of age. After I read him the story he told me, "The Bible is full of stories about human beings". God is awesome. Diana | ||
| Doug_s Registered user Username: Doug_s Post Number: 21 Registered: 7-2004 |
I'm sorry if I've sewed a seed of discord here. That was not my intent. If I have offended anyone I ask that you please accept my humblest apology. I see now that this was not the place or time to discuss this subject. Please forgive me. I don't know how or why I brought this up. Something I read further up the thread must have tweaked my conscience and out it came. I truly love my freedom and eternal life in Christ. I know that there is nothing that can separate me from the love of God. Maybe, if anyone is interested, we can continue this discussion in another thread that is a more appropriate setting, as I have quite a bit bottled up inside me concerning this issue. Once again I apologize for trampling on your flowers of joy in grace. Belva, I apologize to you for not warmly welcoming you to the forum. Welcome, and I hope that this forum can be place of support and comfort to you. In Christ's love and service, Doug | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2004 |
Doug, I have a burning question for you that I feel I must ask you at this time, after reading your apology above, because it begs to be asked: WHY ARE YOU UP AT 4:42 A.M.? I also want to say (after reading over all these different thoughts regarding the state of the dead), "Praise God!" I have to disagree with you-- I do not feel/see any discord amongst any of you. I enjoy and I am grateful that all of you are willing to share your opinions, thoughts and insights. I read them knowing that you are all in God's Word and are desiring to know His will for your lives. I learn so much from each and everyone who is willing to share. So...thank you for stepping out...don't forget your "whoa moments"...They are a gift from the Holy Spirit, not just for you but for the rest of us! Keep sharing, please! | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 199 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thank you Belvalew, now I understand where you were coming from. After so long in Adventism, and after so long being out, I tend to perk up when I hear anyone say that salvation equals belief in Christ plus some work(s) on our part. Clearly, that is not what you meant in your last post. btw, welcome to the forum! |
