| Author | Message | ||
| Patrickfoy Registered user Username: Patrickfoy Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thank you all for your warm welcomes. Colleen, something you said to me has really been on my mind. You said, No one just decides to read the bible. After thinking about that statement and going to the Word, I couldn't agree with you more. We are all chosen by God. He chose us at the beginnig of the world. Praise God! This may sound strange, but I remember as a child,my longing to hear the Word. At about 5 years old, the church bus would pick me up Sunday morning and take me to Sunday school. My mom tells me that when she would drop me off at kindergarden or a sitters house, I would cry and cry because she was leaving me. But on Sunday morning I would run to get on the bus and barely tell her good-bye. I remember sharing what I learned about Jesus with anyone who would listen. See I was the only one in my family that went to church, ever. Through the years I slipped further and further away from God. Until, one day I received the "Revelation Now" mailer in my mail box. That's where my ride with the SDA began. For 12 years I was a faithful "good" Adventist, but then I had a question on Investigative Judgement. I could not get a straight answer. I started to study the bible. Praise God! I was chosen. Thank you for your mentoring. I still haven't found a church as of yet. But, I am looking, with the Lord's guidance I know I will find one. Do you think the Lord could of used the SDA to bring me back to the fold? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 365 Registered: 12-2003 |
Patrick, what an interesting question. I've actually thought about it a lot over the years. First, my maternal grandmother's story has helped me understand this phenomenon. She was raised Eastern Orthodox, and in their church, the members were not allowed to read the Bible. In fact, if my memory serves me right, I believe they were not permitted to own their own Bibles. Certainly they were not to study them. She and her sister had an Adventist friend (this was shortly before World War I in Central Europe) whose family met at a home church. My grandmother and her sister began going to church with the friend, and they were allowed to have and to read Bibles. In spite of geat physical persecution from her Orthodox family that ultimately caused my grandmother to emigrate to Canada and become a mail-order bride to another Central Euorpean immigrant who had converted to Adventism, she became baptized as an Adventist. She always told my mother that she was not baptized into Ellen White; she was baptized into Jesus. (The European church did not talk as much about EGW as did the North American one, at least then.) I believe that God did use Adventism to bring my grandmother into a relationship with Him. It was not Adventism per se that did it; it was her access to the Bible. She simply had no access to the Word of God before Adventism. I believe that God does not just leave us when he starts to lead us. Our first steps toward Him will not plant us where we will stay for the rest of our lives. My grandmother's (and grandfather's) Adventism brought the Bible to my mother and her siblings, and both my mom and one of her brothers are now former Adventists and Christ-followers. It took years for my mom to move away from Adventism, but she and my dad stopped attending the Adventist church and became members of our church in 1999. I remember well something a former Adventist emailed to me a few years ago. She said she now believes that God first brought her into Adventism so the law could lead her to Christ, then out and into a relationship with Him. Everyone is different; God leads us to himself in such individualized ways. (When I took my teaching certification classes, the current rage at the time was "individualized instruction". God does that better than anyone!) Because Adventism does verbally promote Bible reading, Adventists actually have access to the Living word. The spirit of deception which "owns" the church prevents the majority from being able to understand what they read, yet those whose hearts desire truth will respond to the Holy Spirit's teaching in the Word. Your memories of longing to hear the Word as a child, Patrick, are reminiscent of the memories of many people I've heard talk about their pasts. My husband remembers that all his life, he wanted to know what truth was. He agonized about knowing it, finding it, living by it. My father said that when he was five years old, he went to church with his family and watched the Adventist preacher enter the pulpit carrying a Bible and three EGW books. Until shortly before his death two years ago, he vividly remembered his question at that young age: If we are supposed to be the "people of the Book", why does he have those "other" books with him? It was my dad's relentless desire to know the truth that ultimately engaged my mother in reading that led them both out of Adventism. I remember that all during my childhood, I prayed to know Jesus and to be like Him. I really had no idea how to know Him, but I knew that's what I wanted my life to be about. Yes, I believe God calls us and knows us from before the foundation of the earth. I believe He leads each of us in ways uniquely designed to teach us what He wants us to know to equip us for the work He has designed for us to do. (Ephesians 2:10) And yes, God will guide you to a church where you can grow as you ask Him to lead you. Colleen | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 3 Registered: 7-2004 |
Patrickfoy, To me, the best thing about getting "old" is having more hindsight to draw from (Is that also called wisdom?? Hindsight tells me not to put too much stock into my own wisdom!! HA!). You asked if the Lord used the SDA church to bring you to back to Him. My answer is YES! Romans 8:28 is a verse I preach and preach to my children - I firmly believe that God uses all the happenings in my day to day life (the good along with the unpleasant ones) to mature my thought processes and give me guidance to a better life with Him. So I guess that means that I can praise Him for the time I spent in Adventism! James tell us (1:2) to consider it joy when we encounter various trials. I wrote a quote from Mother Teresa beside that verse in my Bible. It says, "I can say with complete truthfullness that everything I have learned in this world that has enhanced and enlightened my experience, has been through affliction and not through happiness." I think, though, that if I harbor resentment towards my parents, teachers, friends, pastors and etc., for the all the "negatives" that Adventism brought in my life than Romans 8:28 is not the promise God intended. I must give all the pain and sorrow up and find the joy that it all has brought to my life today. I am praying that God will lead you to a place of fellowship where you will find love and acceptance for yourself and a wonderful experience of worship and study. God will bless you, Patrickfoy! | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 343 Registered: 1-2003 |
Please pray for me. Though I dropped my membership from the local SDA, they now have a new pastor. My mother attends still and we get the newsletters because my husband is still a member. Anyway, my mom went and heard the new pastor (I won't name him but he has been the pastor of the college church in the past (large) and a union conference president) and she swears to me he preaches only Jesus. she and my husband are trying to pressure me into hearing him...I don't want to be a hypocrite and give the impression I am inconstant and return...know what I mean? They are having a huge potluck this Sat. and trying to lure me and my kids there...help! | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 374 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pheeki, I will pray for you. I understand your dilemma. You know (I know you know!) that the fact an Adventist preacher preaches "only Jesus" does not mean he necessarily has a Biblical view of God, His justice, the natue of man, even the inspiraton of the Bible. If he has been a pastor of a large college church and also a conference president, I believe it's safe to say he knows all about the problems with Ellen White and the church's distinctive doctrine, 1844. Unless he's preaching the truth, exposing the heresy, he is misleading people and being personally dishonest. I realize that I'm sounding awfully harsh. I also know that many pastors are themselves in a process of transition, discovering the true gospel for themselves, and gradually beginning to preach it on a slow trajectory out of the church. Whatever the case, going back is, well, going back instead of moving forward. Your kids are also vulnerable. I will pray that you'll have wisdom to know whether or not to go and hear him. I realize you'll be better able to discuss the issues if you actually hear him, but only you know whether or not such discussion with your family is likely to be significant. God will help you to know whether going to hear him will help your witness to your family or not. With prayers for you, Colleen | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 21 Registered: 5-2004 |
Pheeki, I agree with Colleen...that the decision is a complicated one. But here is my prayer for you: That God will lift you up and give you the strength to do His will. That whether you go, or don't go, His love will radiate through you and His assurance will calm your fears and that He will give you the words to speak. May He shine light to your corner of the world, and that no matter how the devil tries to attack, that you may always trust and rest in Him ultimately | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 349 Registered: 1-2003 |
Thanks so much ...I just got off the phone with my daughter who wants me to hear this guy preach and then my mother asked me agian to go. She said, 'Just come to the potluck if nothing else.' and they are having homemade vege burgers...I would walk through a mile of snow for a good vegeburger (and I am not vegetarian, either) but I flat out told her no. I cannot go backwards. I had at one time told my husband I could worship with anybody...but now I am not so sure. I don't want to go there anymore. I cannot tell you how many people have approached my husband about starting their own church within the SDA ranks. It's as if they are dissatisfied with the SDA organization but what unites them is the Sabbath...no what I mean? At least 4 people have brought this up to him...and he made the comment to me that he isn't sure he agrees with SDA's anymore but he believes 100% in the Sabbath. Why is the Sabbath doctrine so strong? I will admit it was so hard for me to give up the Sabbath, it took almost 2 years. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 190 Registered: 5-2002 |
Because, Pheeki, according to SDA doctrines Sabbathkeeping is the Seal of God, it determines who does and does not receive the mark of the beast, and it ultimately protects you from drinking from the cup of God's indignation poured out full strength unmingled with mercy during the 7 last plagues. Not keeping the Sabbath is tantamount to not sprinkling the blood on your doorposts the night of the Passover. Pretty powerful motivation to not abandon it, dontcha think? | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 360 Registered: 7-2003 |
Pheeki, I think you made a good decision. We had to tell our friends and family "no" quite a bit at first. It was necessary because all the invitations were clearly an attempt to draw us back in, to show us it wasn't so bad afterall. There is no way we could have moved on with our relationships and our lives if we had disingenuously allowed their false hope to coninue. The number of things we would have been invited to would have been unnending and they would continue to see us as wayward Adventist instead of the evangelical followers of Christ that we now are. Chris | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 383 Registered: 12-2003 |
Pheeki, I support you. My take on the strength of the Sabbath's hold on Adventists is that it is perhaps the most enduring, timeless of the shadows of Christ in the Bible. It defined the Israelites' lifestyle and openly set them apart from the people around them; it was the sign of their covenant with God; it was THE promise that they would one day re-enter rest with God. It was a powerful symbol both because it represented God's ultimate intention for His relationship with His people, and also because it gave Israel a day of rest and celebration and hope. What more powerful symbol could evil choose to misrepresent and pervert, deceptively seducing people to take their eyes off of Christ and put them on His shadow instead? The Sabbath WAS a powerful sysmbol in the Old Covenant. Today, however, its purpose is over. When you combine the heretical teaching that the Sabbath is the Seal of God with the feeling of "specialness" because they have that day off and that special knowledge that gives them an "in" with God, you have a powerful spiritual deception. The pull of the Sabbath can only be understood as a spiritual bondage, part of the claim of the spirit of Adventism. That's my current take on the subject! Colleen | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 597 Registered: 7-2000 |
Pheeki, I just read your post... I, too, have come to the place where I can NOT "go back" to an Adventist church, even to visit...(except perhaps a wedding or funeral). To do so just continues the denial in their minds that I have really left Adventist doctrine for good! Colleen, your "take" on the strength of the Sabbaths' hold on Adventists is is very true! I also believe you are right in your assessment of pastors who know differently yet remain in it, even if they try to just preach Christ... not the aberrant doctrines. It does eventually come down to a matter of HONESTY. Each person deals with the cognitive dissonance differently, for better or for (in our case) worse... And I realize each person's time table in leaving Adventism is in God's hands; we can't accurately judge motives. But for those 'on the fence' with questions we can encourage to live a life of honesty and boldness. Just recently, Pheeki, my husband and I had a similar situation where a new pastor came to the Adventist church closest to our home. We have now visited at length twice with him, once in our home and once in a restaurant. He and his wife are very gracious (he definitely knows and discusses the "problems" of SDA doctrine). We've been told not to worry about believing the Investigative Judgement, etc... or even Ellen White...just come back and fake it! Seriously. There was an acknowedgement that our views on the "Sabbath" might be a problem if we wanted any leadership position and were vocal about Jesus being our Sabbath Rest 24/7 (with no specific 7th Day "holiness"). But we can not go back into that convoluted thinking anymore. The freedom of thought and speech we have now in being "merely" Christian is refreshing indeed! It is one of peace...knowing Jesus really is enough! grace always, cindy | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 366 Registered: 7-2003 |
Cindy, I was given the exact same speil by an SDA pastor. He said, "I wish 'd know those were your issues. I don't think you necessarily have to believe the exact same way on those things. you can still come and worship with us and be involved. It might be kind of an issue on some of those points if you stay in leadership, I'm not sure, I'll have to check on that and get back to you. But you should just come back. I question some things sometimes too." What a crock! Just come back and don't be too vocal and avoid leadership. Yeah, that's the way I want to live. That's really being a part of the Body. Why would I agree to such a thing? ......still, some do. Chris | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 602 Registered: 7-2000 |
Chris, yes, I agree, it is not the way I want to live either! Sure, people may have different views on some things, but when the main core doctrines of salvation in Christ are compromised, a very real spiritual deception underlies the whole framework! And Adventisms' core doctrines directly challenge the Sufficiency & Supremacy of JESUS. grace always, cindy | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 367 Registered: 7-2003 |
You said it well! Chris | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 222 Registered: 3-2004 |
Pheeki, I just read your post and everyone else's here. I agree with you when you said you could not go with your Mom to the SDA church. My old SS class is making a quilt on Sundays and my friend invited me. I did not go. I am still to new out of Adventism to associate with more than one SDA at a time. I will see her for lunch occasionally, but not in a group. As for those SDAs who advocate, come back, do not make waves and fit it with us is a denial of Jesus Christ and what He did for us. I pray that never happens to me and if God does let it happen, I know He will give me the correct answer for Him. Colleen, you have such a good talent with words. The Sabbath is a very powerful symbol. My family has not lived an SDA life style for longer than I, but some of them still cling to the Sabbath, even when they are not keeping it. Pheeki, I am praying about going to Dallas for the Former Adventist reunion. If I go, I will let you know here on the forum. Our God is an awesome God. Diana | ||
| Pheeki Registered user Username: Pheeki Post Number: 352 Registered: 1-2003 |
I may see you there...I don't live far Flying lady. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 388 Registered: 12-2003 |
Cindy, I'm really happy to read that you and your husband had those conversations with the SDA pastor but that both of you felt you cannot go back to that. I pray that God is blessing you and continuing the healing work He began in both of you so many months (years?!) ago. Yes, the cognitive dissonance and compromise is so frustrating and astonishing when I encounter it. I will never forget being asked if I couldn't "keep a foot in both camps" (literally in those words)--enjoy the worship I'd found at my Sunday church, but hang onto the "good things" I had in Adventism. I remember looking at the person asking me and thinking, "You can't possibly know Jesus and ask that question." Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 127 Registered: 10-2001 |
I think they are just desperate not to lose members. When I was SDA they put my husband on the books in every church we went to and he told them he was no Adventist and he hardly ever went. They said, if one member of the family is a member, the whole family is. Weirdos! I am so sick and tired of people telling me they are evangelical! CRI wrote me a HUGE letter about Joyce Meyer since I commented nicely on their refuting her. I mentioned that I was raised in the SDA cult and they could warn people about that and do some good. They sent me pages of quotes from Joyce Meyer, none of which I felt were not biblical or disagreed with, and then they sent me a big statement on why SDA's are not a cult. Basically, they have a few things wrong but they teach that a person is saved by Jesus alone. And Joyce doesn't?????? No offense to anyone that loves their ministry, but they have a discernment problem. | ||
| Freeatlast Registered user Username: Freeatlast Post Number: 194 Registered: 5-2002 |
I agree Sabra that something is amiss at CRI when it comes to telling it like it is with regard to SDA theology. Hank blasts Joyce as vehemently as Kenneth Hagin and Benny Hinn, while softshoeing callers with honest inquiries about SDAism. He is missing wonderful opportunities to tell the truth about what SDA's teach. True, SDA's SAY that they preach the sufficiency of Christ but it is obviously not what they officially endorse. It is Christ PLUS something and Hank should candidly and gently point that out. It is frustrating when I hear him fumble away callers who really want to know what is going on inside SDAism. I used to support his ministry because it did help me develop good discernment skills. However, I feel I have supported CRI's ministry fairly for that and I cannot in good conscience continue sending money if they will not call a spade a spade, so to speak. I don't think it is merely a difference of opinion between myself and Hank Hanegraaf. I smell a rat, with all due respect for what CRI's ministry has done for me... | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 131 Registered: 10-2001 |
I was very disgusted by their "position" on the SDA church. They pointed out their problems such as soul sleep, Michael the arch angel--referred to as a misunderstanding, and other little things, then they said that they could not be considered a cult because they teach the redemptiion by the cross. There was a page on Sabbath and even said Sabbatarians have a point, Sabbath was established at creation and intertwined into history but it doesn't matter because we are under grace. Then it pointed out that the disciples gathered on Sunday. No mention of the Rest of God, the real reason for the Sabbath, the Sabbath being for Israel, no understanding at all. Sounded like what I thought christians believed when I was Adventist. I have heard Joyce say Jesus is our Sabbath rest and we rest in Him and everyday is the Sabbath. Amen Joyce! Flesh and blood didn't reveal that to her or any of us. It is not something you learn or understand without the Spirit. I'm writing off the CRI as a hinderance to the gospel. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 403 Registered: 12-2003 |
I'm afraid I have to agree. Hank seems to have changed his position on Adventism since the mid-to-late 90s. As Freeatlast said, "I smell a rat..."! Colleen | ||
| Tealeaves Registered user Username: Tealeaves Post Number: 68 Registered: 5-2004 |
What is the CRI? | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 386 Registered: 7-2003 |
Christian Research Institute. Run by Hank Hanegraff who does the program called "the bible answer man". It's a live call-in type program on the radio. some of his programs are good, others just irritating. |
