| Author |
Message |
Hoytster
Registered user
Username: Hoytster
Post Number: 106
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 4:30 am: |     |
Thanks to all for this thread. (I love this forum!)
I also have big problems yielding control, but I WANT to be led by the Holy Spirit!
- Hoytster |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 556
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 7:49 am: | |
I used to have big problems wanting to be in control. Then I learned the Serenity Prayer. When I want control, God brings it to my mind and I remember what control I have. Only over myself and not even that without God's help.
Diana |
Cindy
Registered user
Username: Cindy
Post Number: 664
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, September 11, 2004 - 10:41 am: | |
I remember also... for me that word "obedience" used to bring up to my mind the horror and guilt-inducing mindset of religious legalism.
I actually used to feel I needed to have the "Ten Commandments' hung somewhere in my house to look at often for motivation! :-) Jesus was just the start of perfection...not really enough to rest completely in!
I am grateful to see it differently now in my understanding of the NEW(!) COVENANT. Because of Christs' bodily sacrifice (the curtain, separating God's Presence from us, now torn--from heaven... down to us!, we have access to a new way of obedience...His Spirit literally writing on our minds, motivating our hearts to do His will.
Obedience is so closely tied to belief... and disobedience to unbelief (see Hebrews 3:18,19).
The obedience we give God is that of complete trust...trust in His Finished Work...entering by faith into HIS REST!
Like Doc wrote, it is a matter of obeying the Spirit, not a matter of looking back to the Old Covenant's now "OBSOLETE" rules of living. (Hebrews 8:13)
God promises us:
"I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MINDS
AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS." (Hebrews 8:10)
and in the same, but slightly different words,
"I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR HEARTS,
AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR MINDS." (Hebrews 10:16)
It is a very real difference in obedience! But I guess impossible to explain to those entrenched in legalism unless the "veil" is supernaturally lifted and taken away by the Holy Spirit.
grace always,
cindy |
Tealeaves
Registered user
Username: Tealeaves
Post Number: 179
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 2:34 pm: | |
Cindy,
What you said about the "horror" you said you felt at the very word obedience... I have run into what I think is that very same reaction in many SDAs. When they talk about "obedience" (they, to sabbath issues, usually), I tell them that I believe that obedience to God is a natural outcome of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our hearts and lives.
I agree that obedience does have it's place, and talk about what a joy it is in my life to obey God by letting Him love people through me. -- This usually makes them shrink back and feel defensive, because they aren't used to thinking of love as an issue of obedience, and I am sure that they start feeling that "horror" because they are thinking of how short they fall in loving others with God's perfect unconditional love.
I feel no horror at the thought of obedience. On the contrary, I desire to obey Him. I wish I knew how to communicate that to SDAs.
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Ric_b
Registered user
Username: Ric_b
Post Number: 39
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 5:24 pm: | |
T--
Another outstanding description. thanks!
However, I'm not as sure about the "horror" at the realization of falling short in perfect love. Because observing the Sabbath has been made the end all and be all of obedience to God (among SDAs), even to the point of being THE distinguishing characteristic between God's people and Satan's people, anything that challenges that neat little package IS viewed with horror. Sometimes, though, it seems that the horror is that anyone would challenge how important the Sabbath is, with something as "unclear" as love for others.
When people understand how short they really fall from God's ideal, they cling to grace tenaciously. Or they re-invent God to have lower standards, like basing salvation on choosing the "right" day.
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Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 562
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 6:47 pm: | |
Before I left the SDA church for good, I used to ask God how I could show Him that I loved Him. I really felt that I did not love God in a way that he wanted. Some where along the way and it was before this past January, when I decided not to rejoin the SDA church, He let me know I loved Him by loving others. This was before I left VA. It was so liberating. Then after January of this year I read the NT. When I came to John, I became more in love with God for putting me on the right path. When I was told I was loving others, nothing was said about the Sabbath. It was just love others. I am not perfect at it, but God does not say be perfect at it. I still fall short at times.
To me, obedience is the by product of my love for God. Because I love him I am willing to obey him.
He is an awesome God.
Diana |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 479
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 10:03 am: | |
But don't you think some of the "comfort" of having lists is that "obeying" God is so black and white? B seems to find complete comfort in the fact he keeps the Sabbath. And because of that one rule that he strictly follows (in his own mind), the other things that the Bible says that are less emphasized within his church and "grey" in his mind of clarity, are less important. Though he will use the word "relationship" as the important thing with God, reality in practice is nothing more than the SDA list of rules (as squeezed from the Bible, of course). But because his blueprint to life is so black and white, he has a ccomfort that he is doing "God's will" where I sometimes struggle to figure out God's direction. He doesn't seem to confer with God on some things. For example, I've been looking for a house. I'm not only looking for what I want, but also diligently want to find the house God has for me to support the ministry he has for me. B doesn't even seem to register that quest to seek God at that level. Once he has the rules down, he lives the rest of his life as he wants. He never speaks of being lead by God except when he talks about being SDA and his doctrinal beliefs. Obedience really involves the black and white rules and not so much with daily surrender of one's heart to the will of God. At least that's how I view the SDAs I've been exposed to.
Greg Taylor's book was quite eye -opening to me from that perspective because he is the first SDA I've read that wasn't talking about having the "right" doctrines and the "truth" to find they were in error in some form, but was diligently seeking God's will on a regular basis and his beliefs almost seemed secondary to following God. But as he followed God, he became aware of the doctrinal errors. In contrast, most of what I've read about is almost an intellectual conversion first and heart conversion second. A discovery of the error in doctrines opens the heart to the reality of God ... I could be way off base though....
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 694
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 10:53 am: | |
Melissa, you make a good point re: Greg Taylor's story and his quest to follow God, thus discovering his doctrines were skewed. In fact, I think that very process is why I like his book so much. It explains how a SDA who wants to follow God really thinks.
You're right; we usually talk here about discovering the doctrines were wrong, then having a heart conversion. In reality, I suspect, most of us here were more or less like Greg, we just haven't been as good at explaining it from that persepctive. In my experience (which may not be normative), I ALWAYS wanted to know Jesus and His will for me. In my head, though, it was almost as if there were two tracks: trying to know Jesus better, and trying to honor the commandments (read that Sabbath) and being "true" to Adventism.
It was only as I prayed to know what the Bible said and to know God's will that I began to discover the real problems with the doctrines. Yet even as I began to discover those problems, I couldn't see that Adventism was wrong. I continued to believe that I could reshape my doctrines, as I contnued to pray for God's will, and thus effect change in Adventism. I could be a saved, Christ-loving, growing Christian Adventist and thus realize the real truth in the church. I could turn aside from the legalism of my heritage and discover "true" Adventism.
This struggle to grow in Jesus and be true to Adventism was, to be sure, somewhat crazy-making. Yet I believed I had my "ducks in a row", so to speak. The one thing I never really felt I had a seamless, Biblical explanation for, though, was the Sabbath.
These "two tracks"--following and trying to love Jesus and being true to the church--did not resolve for me until I revisited the issue of EGW. I had completely dismissed her as an authority in my mind. In fact, for years I had prayed to understand the Bible without her influence, and God had been answering my prayers. Yet I still believed that she had "meant well", that she had written some excellent devotional material (never mind she plagiarized, which I knew), and that the church had misused her--a fact I blamed for most of her "problems". It was only when I realized I had to call her a "false prophet" that I realized I couldn't be true both to Scripture and to the church.
Dale Ratzlaff's article in the last Proclamation really explained my experience and, I believe, that of almost all SDAs who leave for the sake of Jesus. First, we discovered the gospel. That alone, however, was not enough to make us abandon the church. We had to reach step two: what is our authority? Do we accept any extra-biblical source as authority for truth at any level? If our answer is no, then we must deal with step 3: Ellen White. Do we continue to respect her in the backs of our minds, or do we reject her completely?
That rejection is the point where we can suddenly see that the Biblical doctrines we have been studying and believing lead us into a freedom and new paradigm that is completely different from Adventism.
I think the reason so many of us write about discovering the doctrines and the truth about EGW and then experiencing Jesus is that our full, overwhelming experience of being new, being led my the Spirit, and KNOWING we were born again doesn't fully happen until after we jettison our Adventist baggage. I really believe that all Adventists who leave the church for the sake of Christ were wanting to obey Him and know Him and were praying to honor Him BEFORE they left the church. Many of us had experiences of His leading in our lives for years before we left. But probably most of us--even Greg Taylor--did not have that sense of being surrendered and free in Him until after knowing why we had to leave the doctrines and the prophet behind and walk away from it all.
I remember during the months that Greg and Paula left the church, he posted on this forum quite a bit. He struggled as we all did with that paralyzing doubt and fear that he was being deceived and would be lost. And that struggle was AFTER his years of diligently seeking God and His will in his life. It came only after he decided he had to leave.
For an Adventist, leaving the church is an example of Oswald Cahmbers' comments that we learn more from 5 minutes of obedience than from five months of studying an issue. Only when an Adventist discovers that he can't mesh Biblical truth and grace with Adentism and decides to leave the Adventism does he experience that astonishing freedom and sense of being a new creation. He has to walk away from the (let's be honest) demonic claim of Adventism that says our salvation is at risk if we leave before he can know the startling freedom of Sabbath rest in Jesus.
Yes, Meslissa--Greg's book is really wonderful because he explains the experience of leaving from the inside of an Adventist's head. The reason so many of us explain it from the doctrines backwards is that once we leave, it becomes SO CLEAR how the doctrines kept us in bondage, even when we were seeking Jesus. Greg's book, on the other hand, explains better than any book I know how an Adventist who wants to follow Jesus thinks. It's the best book for helping someone who's never been Adventist understand what goes on inside an SDA who is seeking truth and becomes convicted of the truth.
Praise God for drawing us to Himself!
Colleen
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Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 134
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 12:56 pm: | |
Oh Colleen, your articulation is always a wonderful experience for me. When is your book coming out? God has blessed you with a wonderful gift. Thanks for sharing it with me.
Melissa, I think you are right on about your black and white assessment. The people who see more grey in their world did not grab onto the Adventist "truths" and legalism as much as us black and white people. You can see it outside of religion in everyday life, too. Some people just need the security of routine and structure. The Holy Spirit really had His work cut out for me since I am one of those who enjoy "living in the box". I think that is why resting in Jesus is so awe inspiring to me today. What a difference Real Rest makes! |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 113
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 9:47 pm: | |
Melissa,
I agree about the feeling of security given by following a fixed list of rules. But it is always a false security. The only real security is obtained by being firmly "in Christ" and being led by the Spirit, but that is less tangible, so it scares people.
Perhaps we can pray that God will take people's false security away, so that they can find the real one. Of course, it may mean they panic temporarily.
Adrian
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 698
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 10:01 pm: | |
You're right, Adrian. I'm beginning to believe that God really does work through temporary panic in many people who need to become planted in Him. It's so counter-intuitive: complete surrender to Jesus is so much more secure than "living in the box". Truth, once again, is a paradox!
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 567
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 15, 2004 - 5:05 pm: | |
I have written else where about my new job. God did not get me a full time job until I learned to trust Him with joy and thanksgiving and some panic at times. I did not get another job until my home health work dropped to one patient I was about to discharge. In the meantime I was praying and saying thank you God for the new job.
I had to put 100% trust that God would care for me in whatever way He saw fit. And in His awesome way He provided.
Diana |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 173
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 4:45 pm: | |
My wife, Sylvia, is undergoing foot surgery tomorrow afternoon--the second surgery on the same foot in one week. This is a complication from diabetes that she has endured for twenty years.
Please join me in praying for her return to wellness soon. Indeed, our Great Physician is in the prayer-answering business!
His grace still amazes me,
Dennis J. Fischer |
Busymom
Registered user
Username: Busymom
Post Number: 31
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 5:10 pm: | |
Hi Dennis I am praying for your wifes health and for Jesus to guide the surgeons hands. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 572
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 5:16 pm: | |
Dennis,
I will pray for your wife, Sylvia, every day. Our physician is the best in the universe and He is in the prayer-answering business.
Father, Great Physician, that you are, please lay your hands on Sylvia and heal her. I know you can heal her. Like the woman with the issue of blood who touched the edge of Jesus garment and was healed, Sylvia is reaching out and touching you. Thank You for granting our request. Fill her and Dennis with the Holy Spirit at this very moment. They both love you very much. I ask this in Jesus name. AMEN
God is awesome.
Diana
Diana |
Cindy
Registered user
Username: Cindy
Post Number: 671
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 8:45 pm: | |
Dennis, Please tell Sylvia my prayers are with her! Thanks for the e-mail "Sabbath" paper you sent me, too.
grace always,
cindy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 709
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:53 pm: | |
Dennis, tell Sylvia I'm also praying for her. Keep us posted!
Colleen |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 137
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 11:27 am: | |
Dennis, my husband does not have diabetes but has suffered foot pain for almost 5 years now. He has had 3 different foot/ankle surgeries and back surgery to try and find the source in hopes of "fixing" the pain. I am convinced that there is not many other pains as disabling as foot pain. My prayer is for Sylvia's spiritual, physical and mental strength to be strong and her hope to remain firmly grounded in Jesus. And I am also praying for you as you give the support and encouragement Sylvia needs during this time. |
Thomas1
Registered user
Username: Thomas1
Post Number: 141
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 12:32 pm: | |
Dennis, I have had more of these, for the same reason, then I can remember. I pray that she has GOOD, COMPETENT, AND UP TO DATE Doctors doing her work.
My prayers are with her and you. Her disease is a slow and methodical thief of life.
Thank God that in Jesus, this existence is only the first short,painful beginning of a perfect forever!
<><
Thomas |
Krista
Registered user
Username: Krista
Post Number: 19
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 2:20 pm: | |
Hi Dennis,
I'm fairly new on the forum, and feel very blessed with all the posts, including yours. Please consider buying the following book by Dr. Young:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446532665/102-3093029-4229707?v=glance
Also, check out the diabetes info at:
http://www.notmilk.com
I will be praying for your wife, and thanks for all the great info!
In Christ,
Krista
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 712
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 2:40 pm: | |
Dennis, I'm continuing to pray for Sylvia; please update us. I'm also praying for your peace and strength.
Colleen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 174
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 4:19 pm: | |
Thank you for your prayers. Her foot surgery this afternoon went as well as can be expected. Please continue to pray for her successful recovery.
By the way, her missionary zeal for Jesus has not diminished while in the hospital. Amazingly, she has found an opportunity to witness that normally would not be available. One medical professional came to see her solely for spiritual reasons. As Diana would say, "God is awesome."
Dennis J. Fischer |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 30
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 12:13 pm: | |
Colleen,
Can U give me your email address? .. I need to talk to someone.
Tracey
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 719
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 12:21 pm: | |
Tracey, email me at formeradventist@aol.com. I'll be happy to talk to you!
Colleen |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 31
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 1:34 pm: | |
Thanks Colleen!
Incidentally, I just read your August 4th 2004 post under "Was EGW a racist" and I literally just had that conversation last night!! |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 989
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 8:46 am: | |
I have a prayer request. My 28 year old son is suffering from suvere high blood pressure and kidney failure. He also has great liver problems but since he stopped using alcohol his liver seems to be healing and restoring itself. He also suffers greatly from heartburn and acid reflexÝ and has intestioal problems as he passes blood from his bottom and he throws up blood. His body is in poor shape. He is an inmate at a state prison. The authrities will be placing him in a medical unit. Please, remember he was not given a life sentence. He was given a sentence of around 3 1/2 years. Please, pray that his health is restored and that he gets the health care he needs. Also, that I'll be able to drive to visit with him at least once per month. If any of you want to corrospond with him I will snail mail his name and address to Colleen and she can forward it to you. If that is alright with Colleen, of course. and, he reads a lot. He likes reading his Bible. He's one smart cookie and I guess only a mother can get by with saying this so I will proclaim it loud and clear, He Is A Wonderful Young Man. Thank-you for your prayers. And, remember Jesus said something about, "I was hungry and you fed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was in prison and you visited me". Thank-you. |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 63
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 9:06 am: | |
I will absolutely pray for him and you.
God Bless Him. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 774
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 10:41 am: | |
I will pray for him, too.
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 628
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 06, 2004 - 5:14 pm: | |
Susan_2,
Your son and the rest of your family continue to be in my prayers.
Diana |
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