SDA soul ceasing/human spirit doctrine Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 4 » SDA soul ceasing/human spirit doctrine « Previous Next »

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
Billy Graham's new suit.Esther7-06-05  12:47 pm
Archive through July 01, 2005Riverfonz20 7-01-05  10:46 am
  Start New Thread        

Author Message
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 480
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow! This has got to be a hot topic as there were 4 postings or so at one time! You really started something, Jeremy.

Stan
Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd

Post Number: 41
Registered: 4-2005
Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven,

James Oliver Buswell, Jr. B.A., M.A., Ph.D., author of ...A Christian View of Being and Knowing; offers some foundational material which I'll share here: (I didn't take the time to edit this so beware!)

The word soul in Heb. is nephesh, in Greek it is psyche and is commonly used in the Bible to designate the non-material ego of man in its ordinary relationships with earthly and physical things. It is one of a number of psychological nouns, all designating the same non-material self, but each in a different functional relationship. Thus, the "mind" (nous) is the self in its rational functions. Again "mind" (phronema) is the self as deeply contemplating. "Heart" (kardia) is the self as manifesting a complex of attitudes. "Will" (thelesis) is the self as choosing and deciding. "Spirit" (pneuma) is the self when thought of apart from earthly connections. When the blessed dead in heaven are spoken of as having been put to a martyr's death, they are called "souls" (Rev 6:9). When there is no reference to their former bodily experience, they are called "spirits" (Heb 12:23).

These functional names of the human ego are not used with technical discrimination in the Bible. They often overlap. The difference between man and beast is not that man has a soul or spirit (Gen 1:20; 7:15: Eccl 3:21) but that man is created in the image of God, whereas the animals are not.

We know there are two substantive entities which make up the whole man (person): 1) the body, which at death returns to dust, awaiting the resurrection when in glorification the spirit is united with (now) a glorified body. I can't wait to see and feel what that is like, how about you? :c) and 2) the non-material self which, if regenerate, goes to paradise or heaven; if not, to the abode of the wicked dead. There are many, however, who hold to what theologians call a trichotomous view, arguing that "soul" and "spirit" are two distinct substantive entities, and the body, a third. They cite 1 Thes 5:23; 1 Cor 15:44; Heb 4:12 for evidence.

Modern non-Christian psychology ignores or denies the existence of the soul as a substative entity. The "self" is usually spoken of as a mere behavior pattern, a consciousness, but not a being which is conscious.

It should be kept in mind that in this created world, whenever movement in space occurs, there is something which moves; and similarly, whenever consciousness occurs, there is something, the soul or mind, which is conscious.

Webster says soul is an entity which is regarded as being the immortal or spiritual part of the person and, through having no physical or material reality, is credited with the functions of thinking and willing and hence determining all our behaviour. It rather takes us back to Buddha's delimma, 'who or what is the thinker?' :c)

Without taking the time for a deeper study with exact references to the nuances of the Heb and Greek words, my impression is that the words occasionally seem to be interchangable in terms of their use in referring to the consciousness of man. In Rom 11:8 where Paul quoting says, "God gave them a spirit of stupor,...."
Martin Luther says "the word 'spirit' in this context must not be taken in the sense of some created or infused spirit, but in the sense of the soul itself and the will of man, as we read in 1 Cor 2:11 For what person knows a man's thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? And in Mt 27:50 'He yielded up His spirit,' that is, Luther says, 'He yielded up His soul, and Eccl 12:7; Ps 104:29; Gen 6:17.'"

F.F. Bruce commenting on the tendency for some to take the meaning of Heb 4:12, of the word of God "dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow" as making a fine distinction between the two says it is to be understood as a "rhetorical accumulation of terms to express the whole mental nature of man on all its sides."

Raven, theologians still hold varying degrees of understanding. In such matters it is easy to "major in minors" and this is undoubtedly one subject and are of study we will never know the true full story in it's exact absolute fullness until Jesus expands our minds in glorification and teaches us Himself. In 1 Thes 5:23 paul includes "spirit, soul and body" as being kept blameless.

I personally have not carved out a cold laboratory type separation between the minute specifics between soul and spirit. I tend to see spirit dealing more with our immaterial nature, with heavenly, spiritual things; whereas soul I equate more with ego, mind, the seat of personality. And for me the difference lies more in the level of functionality; yet intuitively I feel they fall into the analogy of a coin with two sides.

I don't know if this has helped or stirred up the subject to make the water more muddy. I trust not the latter.

What is gratifying is that in such matters of debate and personal leanings of understanding, it does not have any bearing upon our union with Christ and our assurance that in Jesus Christ, we NOW have eternal life and are assured entrance into His kingdom.

May His Spirit reveal to us what is necessary for us to understand and know in terms of salvation in Christ and living a life to the glory of God.

Jess
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw

Post Number: 469
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not to stir up a different topic, but the Bible does refer to God's "ears" turning away from the prayers of the wicked, or his "eyes" look to and fro over the earth, and how his "hand" protects, and how the smell of idol sacrifices are a irritant to his "nostrils". Are these only metaphors for us to relate to God by human reasonings?
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris

Post Number: 871
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have found reading the works of Falvius Josephus, a Jewish historian who was a near contemporary to Christ and a witness to the destruction of Jerusalem, to be fascinating.

Josephus wrote a piece explaining to the Greeks how the Jewish view of Hades ("Sheol" in Hebrew and throughout the OT) differed from the prevailing Greek view. This is interesting stuff because it shows that the Jews clearly understood that the spirit continued to exist at death and that this was NOT something that later Christians picked up from Greek philosophy as SDAs claim.

If you have a NASB translation you will see that Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek) appear 77 times in the Bible so it is important to have an appreciation for how the Jews understood these terms. Unfortunately, many other translations obscure these words by translating Sheol as "grave" and translating hades and gehenna both as "hell" as if they were the same thing!

If you use the popular NIV, just remember that everytime you read about someone going down to "the grave", the writer is really telling you they are going to "Sheol".

I have pasted the applicable section of Josephus below. My apologies for the length, but if this is available as an online link I am not aware of it. I should note that I am NOT endorsing the view of Hades/Sheol that Josephus gives. I am not entirely sure it is correct, but it does give us insight into how the Jews of Josephus' day understood death from a thoroughly Jewish perspective. It also sheds light on Jesus' illustration of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31.

Chris


quote:

An Extract Out Of Josephus's Discourse To The Greeks Concerning Hades

1. NOW as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.



2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined in Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.



3. For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls, they do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of the good things they see, and rejoic in the expectation of those new enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham.



4. But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will, but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are sent the angels appointed over them to reproach them and threaten them with their terrible looks, and to thrust them still downwards. Now those angels that are set over these souls drag them into the neighborhood of hell itself; who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapor itself; but when they have a near view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just, even hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it.



5. This is the discourse concerning Hades, wherein the souls of all men are confined until a proper season, which God hath determined, when he will make a resurrection of all men from the dead, not procuring a transmigration of souls from one body to another, but raising again those very bodies, which you Greeks, seeing to be dissolved, do not believe [their resurrection]. But learn not to disbelieve it; for while you believe that the soul is created, and yet is made immortal by God, according to the doctrine of Plato, and this in time, be not incredulous; but believe that God is able, when he hath raised to life that body which was made as a compound of the same elements, to make it immortal; for it must never be said of God, that he is able to do some things, and unable to do others. We have therefore believed that the body will be raised again; for although it be dissolved, it is not perished; for the earth receives its remains, and preserves them; and while they are like seed, and are mixed among the more fruitful soil, they flourish, and what is sown is indeed sown bare grain, but at the mighty sound of God the Creator, it will sprout up, and be raised in a clothed and glorious condition, though not before it has been dissolved, and mixed [with the earth]. So that we have not rashly believed the resurrection of the body; for although it be dissolved for a time on account of the original transgression, it exists still, and is cast into the earth as into a potter's furnace, in order to be formed again, not in order to rise again such as it was before, but in a state of purity, and so as never to he destroyed any more. And to every body shall its own soul be restored. And when it hath clothed itself with that body, it will not be subject to misery, but, being itself pure, it will continue with its pure body, and rejoice with it, with which it having walked righteously now in this world, and never having had it as a snare, it will receive it again with great gladness. But as for the unjust, they will receive their bodies not changed, not freed from diseases or distempers, nor made glorious, but with the same diseases wherein they died; and such as they were in their unbelief, the same shall they be when they shall be faithfully judged.



6. For all men, the just as well as the unjust, shall be brought before God the word: for to him hath the Father committed all judgment : and he, in order to fulfill the will of his Father, shall come as Judge, whom we call Christ. For Minos and Rhadamanthus are not the judges, as you Greeks do suppose, but he whom God and the Father hath glorified: CONCERNING WHOM WE HAVE ELSEWHERE GIVEN A MORE PARTICULAR ACCOUNT, FOR THE SAKE OF THOSE WHO SEEK AFTER TRUTH. This person, exercising the righteous judgment of the Father towards all men, hath prepared a just sentence for every one, according to his works; at whose judgment-seat when all men, and angels, and demons shall stand, they will send forth one voice, and say, JUST IS THY JUDGMENT; the rejoinder to which will bring a just sentence upon both parties, by giving justly to those that have done well an everlasting fruition; but allotting to the lovers of wicked works eternal punishment. To these belong the unquenchable fire, and that without end, and a certain fiery worm, never dying, and not destroying the body, but continuing its eruption out of the body with never-ceasing grief: neither will sleep give ease to these men, nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, nor will the interceding prayers of their kindred profit them; for the just are no longer seen by them, nor are they thought worthy of remembrance. But the just shall remember only their righteous actions, whereby they have attained the heavenly kingdom, in which there is no sleep, no sorrow, no corruption, no care, no night, no day measured by time, no sun driven in his course along the circle of heaven by necessity, and measuring out the bounds and conversions of the seasons, for the better illumination of the life of men; no moon decreasing and increasing, or introducing a variety of seasons, nor will she then moisten the earth; no burning sun, no Bear turning round [the pole], no Orion to rise, no wandering of innumerable stars. The earth will not then be difficult to be passed over, nor will it he hard to find out the court of paradise, nor will there be any fearful roaring of the sea, forbidding the passengers to walk on it; even that will be made easily passable to the just, though it will not be void of moisture. Heaven will not then be uninhabitable by men, and it will not be impossible to discover the way of ascending thither. The earth will not be uncultivated, nor require too much labor of men, but will bring forth its fruits of its own accord, and will be well adorned with them. There will be no more generations of wild beasts, nor will the substance of the rest of the animals shoot out any more; for it will not produce men, but the number of the righteous will continue, and never fail, together with righteous angels, and spirits [of God], and with his word, as a choir of righteous men and women that never grow old, and continue in an incorruptible state, singing hymns to God, who hath advanced them to that happiness, by the means of a regular institution of life; with whom the whole creation also will lift up a perpetual hymn from corruption, to incorruption, as glorified by a splendid and pure spirit. It will not then be restrained by a bond of necessity, but with a lively freedom shall offer up a voluntary hymn, and shall praise him that made them, together with the angels, and spirits, and men now freed from all bondage.



7. And now, if you Gentiles will be persuaded by these motives, and leave your vain imaginations about your pedigrees, and gaining of riches, and philosophy, and will not spend your time about subtleties of words, and thereby lead your minds into error, and if you will apply your ears to the hearing of the inspired prophets, the interpreters both of God and of his word, and will believe in God, you shall both be partakers of these things, and obtain the good things that are to come; you shall see the ascent unto the immense heaven plainly, and that kingdom which is there. For what God hath now concealed in silence [will be then made manifest,] what neither eye hath seen, nor ear hath heard, nor hath it entered into the heart of man, the things that God hath prepared for them that love him.



8. In whatsoever ways I shall find you, in them shall I judge you entirely: so cries the END of all things. And he who hath at first lived a virtuous lift, but towards the latter end falls into vice, these labors by him before endured shall be altogether vain and unprofitable, even as in a play, brought to an ill catastrophe. Whosoever shall have lived wickedly and luxuriously may repent; however, there will be need of much time to conquer an evil habit, and even after repentance his whole life must be guarded with great care and diligence, after the manner of a body, which, after it hath been a long time afflicted with a distemper, requires a stricter diet and method of living; for though it may be possible, perhaps, to break off the chain of our irregular affections at once, yet our amendment cannot be secured without the grace of God, the prayers of good men, the help of the brethren, and our own sincere repentance and constant care. It is a good thing not to sin at all; it is also good, having sinned, to repent; as it is best to have health always, but it is a good thing to recover from a distemper. To God be glory and dominion for ever and ever Amen.

óComplete Works of Josephus


Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris

Post Number: 872
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PW, the examples you give are called "anthropomorphisms". That is, they take the attributes of humans and apply them to God, or in some cases even inantimate objects or nebulous concepts.

We see these throughout the Bible and use them commonly today. For instance when we say something about "the long arm of the law" we do not mean that "the law" itself has arms. To stay in the same vein, when we talk about lady justice being blind, we don't really think that justice is a physical female nor do we think that justice has eyes that aren't working correctly.

Anthorpomorphism are used throughout both testaments for God, for concepts such as "Wisdom", for nations, and for cities.

We could also give examples where the opposite of an anthropomorphism is applied. For instance when Jesus describes himself as "the gate" we don't think he is made from wood and nails. Or when Jesus talks about gathering Jerusalem under his wings we don't assume he is a chicken.

Chris
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw

Post Number: 470
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 12:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Chris, that does make sense.

Another good example of anthropomorphism is in the Old Testament.

Q: What was King Boaz before he got married?

A: "Ruth-less"
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 812
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the Josephus quotation, Chris.

That last section (8) sounds like Ellen White (although she taught that having a stricter diet WAS the way to become righteous!). ;-)

Jeremy

(Message edited by jeremy on July 01, 2005)
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 2235
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Chris. Very interesting Josephus quote.

Colleen
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 483
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chris, I agree. Josephus' account sure seems to match what Jesus was talking about in Luke 16.

There is another interesting question that Charles Spurgeon deals with in his sermon found at www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm that is somewhat related to this topic, but does veer off some. He makes an argument for the doctrine of the particular or limited atonement view of Calvin by pointing out that when Christ died, there were already a lot of people in Hades. So did Christ die for the sins of people already in Hades? Spurgeon argues that it would be very wicked to believe that Christ died for these people, and on the basis of this reasoning says that Christ died only for the elect. I had never heard that argument before. I am not sure I agree with him, but it is an interesting argument.

Stan
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 1667
Registered: 3-2004


Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a very interesting discussion. I started studying it when I decided to become a Christian and never finished. I am so glad my salvation does not hang on it. Oh so glad. All we need is Jesus. He is awesome.
Diana
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven

Post Number: 265
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks to each of you for all the great information to process! Guess I need to keep reminding myself that specific and correct beliefs on what happens at death is not really as important as SDA's make it out to be. The most important thing is that as believers, we're with Jesus.
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis

Post Number: 423
Registered: 4-2000


Posted on Saturday, July 02, 2005 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stan,

I agree with Charles Spurgeon about Christ not having died for those in Abraham's bosom (the dimension for the lost before the Cross). Jesus died for all the ELECT throughout earth's history. Remember, He went to visit the elect while his body was asleep in the tomb. Apparently, Jesus brought them out of Abraham's bosom to enter heaven itself. What an important visit that was!

Dennis J. Fischer
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 498
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good points Dennis. I can't get enough of that Spurgeon website. He has incredible insight. The more I think about what Spurgeon is saying, the more it seems to make sense. What point would there be in Christ dying for those already in Hades? If Christ died for the sins of the whole world, then wouldn't that lead to Universalism? It makes more sense to say that He died for all those that were chosen in Him before the creation of the world. Jesus got what He paid for on Calvary, and secured our redemption. It is truly by grace that we have been saved. That great hymn "Blessed Assurance" sure means a lot more in the light of these great doctrines of grace!

Stan
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 566
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jesus told a story about a man who found a pearl in a field. That man then buried the pearl and went and purchased the field, not so he could own the field, but so he could own the pearl.

As an SDA I was taught that Jesus was the "Pearl of Great Price." I've since come to acknowledge that the Elect are the Pearl of Great Price. You and I are the ransomed, the bought. We have no currency that can be used in rhe purchase of salvation, no matter how wealthy we might be in worldly goods. Jesus bought the entire earth, and everyone in it, so that he could redeem his church. Think about it, the pearl was in a field, on dry land. It had appeared in a place that was totally alien to it. Had the story been about a diamond in a field, or an emerald in a field, that would have been a great discovery, but not at all unnatural. People of faith are an unnatural occurance. There has to be something special about them that makes them worth the price of the entire earth. That is why I still believe that Jesus paid the price of every sin, and he bore the weight of every illness to the cross, all because of the parable He Himself told.

Belva
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris

Post Number: 879
Registered: 7-2003


Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 11:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belva, I find these three parables that Jesus told back to back in Matt. 13 to be fascinating. I hope you won't mind if I present a different take on the primary meaning of the three parables.

I thnk if we amalgamate the parables of the "Hidden Treasure", "The Costly Pearl", and "The Dragnet" we're in danger of missing the entire point of what Jesus is saying. They are not one and the same parable although all three are used to make one particular point.

I think the treasure in the field would have likely had application to Israel since they were so identified with "The Land".

I think the pearl would have likely been in reference to gentiles since pearls and the osyters they came from were unclean for Jews.

The parable of the different types of fish caught up in the dragnet emphasizes and summarizes the message of the first two: people of all types will be saved, both Jew and gentile.

Given the thrust of what Jesus is teaching here I'm not so sure these parables truly bare on the whole Calvinism vs. Arminianims debate.

Chris
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew

Post Number: 568
Registered: 7-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That works for me too. What I was trying to say above is that Jesus was willing to do whatever it took to save, utterly, all who will be saved. They are his parables, his way of telling people how completely he will save them.

How did we take the clear teaching by Jesus and add all of the mumbo-jumbo to it that confuses the issue? I'm sure EGW and cohorts are not the only people who ever misinterpreted scripture. We know that the pharisees never seemed to get the point of Jesus' stories. All I know is that I'm saved, and Jesus did the saving. He paid an awesome price, and undeserving me--I was the recipient of his love.

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration