| Author |
Message |
Ratthedd
Registered user
Username: Ratthedd
Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 10:17 am: |     |
Hello FAF members and guests, My name is Erik. I've been detaching myself from the SDA organization for over 15 years now and was pleased to find such an active group online who share a common experience of once being immersed in adventism and finding a way out.
Some brief background about myself: I'm a third generation SDA. My father's mother converted sometime in the early 1900's when she was living in eastern Prussia (now Lithuania). My father grew up in the church and became a missionary in south-east Asia, was a professor in the Andrews Seminary, and worked for most of his career for the GC. My mother's family were also heavily involved with the church in leadership positions--her Uncle and cousin were both involved with missions in south-east Asia and one of them (I can't recall which) was working at the Weimar Institute in California when he retired. I think he may still be working there in some capacity.
My own conversion out of SDAism probably started while I was still enrolled at Andrews Acedemy, but I know for sure I was convinced that there was definately something wrong with the church before I graduated from the University in 1990. Two summers ago, my wife's church got a new pastor (one of the many ever-changing student pastors who are assigned to local churches while they study at Andrews) who was the most horrendous excuse for a human being, let alone a person in a ministerial position. She came home from church one day and informed me that she thought that this man was abusing the parishoners--this coming from a county health nurse who is trained to recognize abuse in its many forms. I attended church with her for the following few weeks and was appalled at the depths this man would go to to preach his unique version of Christianity. After several months and many, many meetings with the church elders, the pastor and a representative from the Michigan Conference we were finally able to be rid of him, but not before my wife's reputation in the church was completely smeared and the church membership strongly divided over the situation. I continued to attend the church with my wife, as she had been asked to take over as head deaconess (the former one had resigned in protest over the abusive minister). Last summer she was informed that she would not be asked to continue in her position due to some issues they had with her. The reasons cited were that she wears jewelry and that her stewardship is lacking (they apparently feel we're not paying enough into tithe). Neither of us has been back since, although the new pastor (an SDA convert of less than 6 years) has called repeatedly and wants to give us Bible studies.
I've left out a great deal of the juicy details of this story, but suffice it to say that my wife still considers herself to be a Seventh-Day Adventist but is very hurt about the treatment she has received. That brings me to why I'm here on FAF. I fully support my wife's decision to remain in the church, but when she questions her faith I don't feel I can always provide the right answers because of my outright disgust for the whole situation. Hopefully you all will be able to help me help her cope with the turmoil she will continue to face with her church and family. |
Insearchof
Registered user
Username: Insearchof
Post Number: 49
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 10:55 am: | |
Erik,
Welcom to FAF! I am also a relatively new member here in the process of working my way out of Adventism.
I am sure I speak for everyone here when I say that you are on my prayer list. It sounds like you and your wife have had a rough time of it. I am familiar with what those small churches in Michigan are like. My father was a student at Andrews when I was younger and we made the rounds every Sabbath!
Stay strong. Most of all, support each other! You are both in this together and you are not alone!
In Christ,
InSearchOf |
Randyg
Registered user
Username: Randyg
Post Number: 107
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 10:56 am: | |
Welcome Ratthedd,
You are very welcome here. You are free to ask questions, to seek counsel, vent frustrations, and learn God's will. You will not find judgement here, for this is a place to share, to grieve, to grow, and to think. Thinking is allowed. Bible study is encouraged.
Again welcome,
Randy |
Violet
Registered user
Username: Violet
Post Number: 324
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 11:58 am: | |
Welcome Erik,
I am so glad that God let you to this site. Randy summed it up pretty good. We help each other go through the whole range of emotions experianced with detatching from the SDA orginization. We understand about the loss you feel, but also know how much you have to gain.
V |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 936
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 12:20 pm: | |
Again, let me welcome you, too. Hopefully you will find us responsive and helpful. Never doubt that we care for you and are glad to have you among us. We represent everything from soup to nuts regarding our experience as, or with Adventism. As our leader, Colleen, likes to say, "God does not waste anything, and will redeem everything in his time (I paraphrase!)."
Belva |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 636
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 12:38 pm: | |
So glad you joined in at FAF, Erik. Your story of the abusive pastor gave me chills. We had a pastor just like the one you describe in the small SDA church we attended in Montana.
He had a way of bringing new converts into the church - it didn't matter they only stayed a year or less - and though he was tearing the church apart with verbal and spiritual abuse, the conference was slow to move (the baptismal numbers made them look good!). Once they started putting pressure on him, he had been there 12 years and had made many of the members enemies of one another. It was so obvious to us that he was a total and complete tool of the devil...ugh!
Now that we have left Adventism many believe we left disgruntled. It may have had a great deal to do with pushing us to ask questions but we left to leave the darkness of bondage and enter into the Light of the world.
I pray that you will not just feel the love and support of FAF but that you will grow in the love and freedom of the truths of God's Word. The truth will set you free!
In HIS freedom and love,
Denise |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1283
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 1:11 pm: | |
Welcome, Erik. How wonderful to hear of the love and support you are displaying for your wife.
Everyone here is pretty great in my eyes! |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 286
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 1:58 pm: | |
Welcome Erik. It's great to "meet" you and we're glad you're here. BTW, I'm in the AU area. I've wondered when there'd be more representation from MI.
It's a tough road leaving Adventism. But it's well worth the discover of Jesus! I will be praying for you and your wife. |
Tisha
Registered user
Username: Tisha
Post Number: 179
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 3:19 pm: | |
Welcome Ratthedd! There are so many of us "out there" and this is a good place to find each other and support each other in our Christian walk.
Each of our experiences going through "the leaving" has given us insights to share with each other. And I'm learning so much true Biblical doctrine from all the great "students" of the Bible we have here.
It's so exciting to begin to understand things in such a new light. I didn't know how skewed my understanding really was. I'm so happy now to understand, and really know, that I am saved - not by works but by faith in Jesus!
We had a similar experience with an abusive pastor at our last SDA Church. We complained to the Conference and the result was that they closed our small church (for insubordination) and promoted the pastor, who they called one of the "shining lights" of the Conference! He has ruined every church he has lead and they can't see that! He does a good job of preaching their party line and bringing in new members through evangelism. He gets credit for lots of baptisms, and no one notices the large turnover rate!
I must say that I had already been questioning and distancing myself from the SDA Church prior to that. The blessing in it was that when our little Church was shut down, I felt free to search out another Church - and it WAS NOT going to be SDA or any other "cultic" type Church. It was just the kick in the pants that I needed to break free!
Although that was a terrible thing to go through, I now count it as a blessing! My husband and I were both able to leave together and search out our new Church home together. We've never looked back!
So, again welcome to this great group!
-tisha |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3371
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 4:09 pm: | |
Eric, we're so glad you've joined us! You are welcome, as Randy said, to question, vent, share, feel discouraged or sad...you can expect to feel the full range of the stages of grief!
I also will be praying for you and your wife. I can understand her feelings of betrayal and even abandonment. I'll be praying that God will comfort her heart and open her eyes to the truth.
If you haven't yet read much about Adventism, you might start by reading the stories on this website. I think your wife might relate to many of them, too.
You probably already know about Dale Ratzlaff's books, "Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists" and "Sabbath in Christ". If you haven't read them, I think they'd help you understand things a lot. I read "Cultic Doctrine" first, and it laid the groundwork I needed to be able to process through the emotional and doctrinal chaos I experienced. They're available through www.LifeAssurancedMinistries.org. Also, www.sdaoutreach.org has great materials by Mark Martin.
We look forward to hearing more from you!
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2285
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 4:29 pm: | |
Eric,
Another warm welcome from me. All I can say is ditto to everything everyone has written. I especially like Colleen's phrase that God does not waste anything and redeems everything. That is so true.
Ask God for the Holy Spirit as you read the Bible. Start with the gospel of John, go to the other gospels, Acts, Romans and then the rest of the NT. God is with you and your wife. He has carried you this far and will not drop you. You will find as we have that we have an awesome God.
Diana |
Ratthedd
Registered user
Username: Ratthedd
Post Number: 3
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 5:00 pm: | |
Thank you all for your warm welcome. At this point I've already gone through all the stages of grief and am perfectly content in my current spiritual beliefs (what a relief to be rid of all that guilt!)
Colleen, I got Dale's "Cultic Doctrine" book for free two summers ago when we were dealing with the abusive pastor. It put in to words and text references those things that I had already suspected about the SDA church but was too apathetic to research myself. I lent that book to my father, the SDA minister, after one of our deep philosophical discussions that I always enjoy having with him. My father was already familiar with Dale's work and I think he indicated that Dale had been one of his students back in the seminary.
-Erik. |
Jdpascal
Registered user
Username: Jdpascal
Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 5:03 pm: | |
Hello Ratthedd. I'm glad you have found this forum. It is the best and I know you will find what you are looking for and more. I don't post often - just lurk and learn mostly and try and figure out where I really want to be.
Our family situation with the SDA church was so similar to yours, Dd's and Tisha's. We had to remove ourselves from the organization in the physical sense and still struggle with the mental hold that lingers. Yes, the abuse did trigger a study/evaluation of the things we had believed and for me, I know that the SDA system and beliefs are hopelessly corrupted compared to what the Bible teaches. My wife is still conflicted about the sabbath and other SDA practices. She was never one to study into the underlying beliefs before but she does long for a understanding of the Gospel and we have good christian friends who are able to encourage us.
The only remedy for most SDA members is to be shocked into such an honest evaluation.
The conference finally recognized the turmoil generated by this "pastor" and he is no longer in the system (but only after tearing apart 3 other churches and his outright refusal to follow conference orders).
There have been 3 other pastors and one interm pastor in the local congregation in the 10 years since our SDA experience began to die in earnest. The most recent pastor called me up a while back and after confirming my identity the first words out of his mouth were that he had been assigned the job of going over the membership list because no one else wanted to do it and did I want to be dropped from membership imeadiately. No greeting or how are ya or anything. What a piece of work!!!
Sure, I want my name off their list but with that attitude he's going to have to work harder than that to do it with my permission.
Enough of a rant now.
I appreciate all the posts made by everyone on this forum more than I can ever find words for. Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou!!!
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1315
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 5:06 pm: | |
Welcome Erik, Thanks for sharing your story, and look forward to hearing more of it. |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 137
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 5:52 pm: | |
Welcome Ratthedd -- Randy echoes my sentiments. I, too, grew up at St. Andrews University and attended the Academy there.
Gilbert |
Ratthedd
Registered user
Username: Ratthedd
Post Number: 5
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 7:45 pm: | |
I knew a Gilbert when I went to the Academy, when did you graduate? |
Lynne
Registered user
Username: Lynne
Post Number: 279
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 7:48 pm: | |
Ratthedd,
Although my experience is different, I was not raised in the church. I came into the church thinking it was Christian, like other Christian churches about 20 years ago. My eyes were opened last October.
Without giving details, I've seen abuse in about 3 churches. Abuse in the church kept me away from the church physically. But my heart remained true to the church.
I think that abuse starts at the top and trickles down to many Pastors and down to many members and their families.
Abuse began in the church with Ellen White and her husband as shown in the testimony of D.M. Canright. http://www.ex-sda.com/experience-DMC.htm
Next comes the General Conference......
Then it happens with many Pastors........
And on to many members in the church.....
And sadly, down to some innocent children. 
As with any abusive family, the cycle can be stopped. But it is not easy.
Jesus is the only way out - John 3:16. 
Lynne
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Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 582
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 7:58 pm: | |
Ratthedd,
A hearty FAF welcome! You have come to the right place. May this forum assist in providing a speedy healing from your spiritual abuse. Those intent upon accurate answers will no longer remain in a toxic-faith system. Feel free to share your heartaches and joy with us.
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3375
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 8:11 pm: | |
Good to hear from you again, JDpascal!
Colleen |
Benevento
Registered user
Username: Benevento
Post Number: 76
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 10:54 am: | |
Welcome Rathedd, I must apologize, I will never learn how to start a new thread, I don't mean to cut in on yours. This forum will bring you support and help and is a wonderful blessing to those struggling with leaving. If you don't get the answers you need ask again--someone has good answers for you!! I don't always get to read
it all but it is always a blessing to me. Peggy |
Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd
Post Number: 176
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 12:11 pm: | |
Dear Erik,
I thank the Lord that you have been led to discover this forum. I feel confident that the dialog you may have here and many of the posts made by the members of this forum will be only a positive influence to your thinking and growth.
Having a personal history of direct involvement with many conflicts in the church, similar in their root causes, I think I can identify closely with the emotions you and your wife have and continue to experience, as well as a good sprinkling of anger. My wife and I know personally how cruel can be the actions and response of individuals who call themselves Christian, but whose "Christianity" is characterized by a conviction which says, "To hell with people, we must uphold the truth."
Time has revealed another principle to me specifically as it relates to sad memories, regrets, and scars remaining from an emotional separation from the SDA Church. Intuitively I feel that the Spirit of Christ and Truth will eventually turn your wife's eyes and consciousness away from this past church experience to "That One Thing," of supreme importance. It's the glorious story little children take delight in hearing. In "IT" alone is to be found true healing, the melting of all frozen anger, hurt feelings of rejection and false, cruel self-righteous judgment.
Not to disqualify the importance of theological, doctrinal discussions and all the faults that we can identify within the "SAD" Church; I am convinced there is only "that One Thing" which can enable you and your wife to close this book of the past and step into the glorious sunshine of transcendent union with Christ.
On his way to his death, Jesus' last empassioned words to His beloved disciples are not about obedience, temperant living, sexual purity, self-control, commitment to religious practices, or even preaching the gospel; but about remaining in Him, abiding in Him, a living union with Him,
remaining in His love, experiencing His joy within, knowing His Spirit living within, being in Him.
From my own experience I lovingly recommend that you and your wife begin reading the gospels to each other - out loud - slowly,couched in sincere prayer, "Lord speak to us," in a spirit of someone reading "the story" for the first time. You CAN make time for this if you will.
Pick an easy to read translation. Mix it up now and then. Compare the language. Have fun. Loosen the stiff formal tie of your sophistication as an educated adult, and take off your shoes. Let the dust of the path up to the house where Mary, Martha and Lazarus lived, seep in between your toes. Smile with Jesus as you both wipe your sweaty brows and share water from the same cup. Let yourself be selfish and squeeze in between John and Andrew so you both can sit closest to Jesus and be the first to receive the chunk of bread and dried fish he hands out as you share lunch under an olive tree.
Get the smell of the donkey he rode into Jerusalem in your nostrils. Help bring blind Bartemaaeus to Jesus and feel the excitement as you see what happens when Jesus asks him what he wants Him to do for him, and hears Bart say, "Teacher, I want to see !" Share the pictures framed in your own imagination with each other. Ponder the words I imagine Jesus saying after he told Bart to go his way, because "your faith has healed you," when he turned to me and you and your wife and said, "That's just how I want you to live. By faith."
Oh, Erik, take a new look at Jesus. Dip into the proffered jar of "eye salve" He offers before you read the old, old story of Jesus and His love. Smear it thick over your past programmed film of indoctrination in churchiosity and religiosity, blink until you no longer see men walking as trees, but begin to see the Real Jesus Christ for the first time AS HE IS. Not even His teachings. Not doctrines. Not eschatology, not all the sins of Adventism, but Jesus Himself.
It won't take long before you and your wife will begin to feel, to see Him pointing to you and beckoning you to come closer to Him.
Erik, most of us know a ton "about Jesus." And our heads are packed full of concepts about God.
Some of us can quote chapter and verse like a computer printer. But I dare say, few have come to experience "that One Thing," in a living reality within our souls, .... abiding in Him.
You see, once we PGF* - and a good way of doing that is by a return to reading the precious gospels -husbands and wives together, out loud -
in prayer and praise (that will soon erupt spontaneously); THEN we can write about and talk about and dialog about theology and organized religion and have fun splitting Greek and Hebrew hairs adinfinitum, and yes, our understanding can grow in the process. BUT FIRST: "That One Thing."
Me thinks, in all love, that you and your wife just need a little vacation holiday alone with Jesus and no One else! Remember those kindergarten stories? That's where the POWER and LIFE is to be found!
It's hard to "fit" Jesus into our busy schedules.
Jobs, housework, raising kids, relationships, hobbies, career goals, new exciting cars, decorating the home, etc., etc., so I have personally found that it boils down to discovering what "that One Thing" is in MY life!
I will keep you and your wife in our prayers as Bonnie and I continue as we have for years, to meet with Him each pre-dawn in what we call our "Java and Jehovah" time. Along with all our reading - sometimes over a dozen books at the same time, shifting back and forth, - we keep returning to re-reading the Gospels and after that .... well Paul pretty much dominates the rest. Enjoy Erik. Join your wife together. It's great for marriage relationships too. :c)
JWD
* Put God First
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3381
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 12:19 pm: | |
Jess, what a powerful post. You are right.
Colleen |
Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 384
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 1:35 pm: | |
Jess, thanks for your "as usual" down to earth and gentle guidance.
Richard
rtruitt@mac.com
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Randyg
Registered user
Username: Randyg
Post Number: 108
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 2:14 pm: | |
Erik,
One of the greatest benefits of this forum is it allows each one here to share the absolute joy and relief that laying aside the bondage of the law brings. Paul states over and over that we are dead to the law when we accept Christ into our life. This joyful experience is something you want, and need to share with others.
Our families and SDA friends do not want to hear it. The programming(indoctrination) is so ingrained regarding the Law, that they find it offensive when you can say your relationship with Christ is stronger now than before.
To most Adventists; Relationship with Christ = SDA membership and Sabbath keeping. Anything else is not a genuine or authentic relationship. This whole idea cannot be found in the Bible and is a completely contrived. It is a tool to manipulate members and as you know is quite effective.
On this forum we have a group of fellow believers who have experienced the same bondage, and now the same freedom.
With freedom comes responsibility. We are not lawless in our actions or lifestyle, but rather we try to live a Christlike life with the help of the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is demonstated in how we deal with, and care for those around us. This is demonstrated in our acknowledgement of God in our lives.
Sometimes this requires difficult conversations or decisions. However these can usually be done in a loving and respectful manner.
Jesus was not afraid to confront error and hypocrisy, and neither should we. Most of the conflict that Jesus had with the Pharisees revolved around breaking the Sabbath. Jesus was a Sabbath breaker according Jewish law. Jesus said that if you love God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself you fulfill the requirements of the Law.
For adherents to the Mosiac Law this however seems hardly adequate. Must we not KEEP something? Don't we have to DO something? Nothing is free, right?
When we believe that our salvation is lost, or the salvation of a loved one because they are failing to KEEP the Law, we are in effect denying the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice. We are denying the ability of God the Father to save us without our help. If we feel we have to KEEP, or DO, something other than acknowledge and accept the Gift, we are doomed to failure. The Central Dogma of Christianity is that we are saved by Grace through faith and not by works.
This is the Good News of the Gospel, and we are commissioned to share it. We as former Adventists have been blessed(?) with this unique and exciting challenge. We have for better, or for worse, a CAPTIVE audience. As we realize, and navigate through our promised freedom, God can and will use us, despite ourselves. The Holy Spirit will make our attempts at sharing, and witnessing, palatable to those who have doubts and questions about the authenticity of our walk.
God bless,
Randy |
Wooliee
Registered user
Username: Wooliee
Post Number: 55
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 2:33 pm: | |
JWD, Thank you for your beautiful post! Julie |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3382
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 4:03 pm: | |
Randy, thank you for your incisive post. I know that you are living what you wrote. Praying for you!
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2290
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 6:54 pm: | |
JWD and Randy,
Thank you for your way with words and how you write about Jesus. God has given you a gift.
Diana |
Jwd
Registered user
Username: Jwd
Post Number: 177
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 11:07 am: | |
Diana, Colleen, Wooliee, & Richard,
Thank you for your kind encouragement.
Jess |
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