| Author | Message | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 32 Registered: 9-2006 |
Fair enough Timmy: Am I saved? I love Martin Luther's response to that. When I look to myself I don't know how I could ever be saved. But when I look to Jesus I do not see how I could ever be lost. I preached a sermon recently entitled, "What You See Is What You Get". If I look to self I get more of me. If I look to Jesus, I get more of Him. Where I go depends on where I look. God bless, WalkOnWater | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 87 Registered: 8-2006  |
WOW, Thankyou for your response. Let me tell you a little about myself. I am just a farm boy from Michigan, I do not get into politics and I steer away from religious and theological debates. To me, your answer seems very political. It could be read many ways. Does it say... I don't know? Maybe? I think so? No? I hope so? I like what Martin Luther said too. But Luther said what Luther said. What do YOU say? This is a simple question that begs a simple answer. (To be blunt) To me, it is the difference between being a Christian or not being a Christian. ìFor God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to SAVE the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned" (John 3:17, 18). "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life" (John 5:24) 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, ìThe man who does these things will live by them.î13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: ìCursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.î 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. (Galatians 3) 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified FREELY by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (Romans 3) Salvation is a free gift in Jesus, take it and say with confidence, "I AM SAVED!" Hallelujah! 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with CONFIDENCE, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. (Hebrews 4) I am praying for you brother, Please pray for me, In Jesus, Tim | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 604 Registered: 1-2003  |
WalkOnWater, you are very good with words and would make a very good politician.  May God continue to lead you and guide you, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 37 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dear Seekr777 Allow me to take off my politician's hat for a moment and give you my true thoughts on this subject? Am I saved? Yes I am saved, but I do not usually say that. Here is the reason. What is the subject of that sentence? The subjest is me, the focus is me, the attention is drawn to me. In fact, saying "I am saved" can sound like I am bragging. If you are not saved, it can sound like I am trying to be superior to you. That is why I rarely say "I am saved". I prefer to say, "My precious Jesus accepted me when I was so broken I couldn't accept myself. Jesus loved me when I couldn't love myself. Jesus forgave me when I could not forgive myself. Jesus rescued me out of the hell I had made of my life when I could not rescue myself. Jesus took my blackness and brought the light of His love into the depths of my soul. Jesus Christ is the lover of my soul. Jesus is my Lord and my salvation." What is the subject of that affirmation? Our Lord and Savior Jeus Christ!!! not me. I want all the praise and all the honor and all the glory to go to Him not me. That is why I rarely say, "I am saved". WalkOnWater | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4842 Registered: 12-2003  |
Walk, actually, when one is in an intimate relationship, it's a bit of an insult to the loved one not to own the relationship. I would be pretty upset if Richard didn't freely proclaim, "I am married." If he had to couch everything in terms of ME instead of HIMSELF, it wouldn't be a compliment. It would be holding himself at arm's length from the marriage. If he were to tell people, "My precious Colleen accepted me when I was so broken I couldn't accept myself. She loved me when I couldn't love myself. She forgave me when I could not forgive myself..." etc., I would feel as if he was not "owning" the relationship as fully his own. He would be in a position of almost groveling, of unworthiness. Such a "declaration" would place him at a distance from true intimacy. Further, saying "I am saved" is a passive-voice sentence. In passive voice, the subject RECEIVES action. Saying "I am saved" is the same as saying "Jesus saved me", but it increases the emphasis that I (the subject) was acted upon by a force greater than I am. Example: Which sentence has the greater impact? Tim was hit by a car. A car hit Tim. In general, passive voice sentences are cumbersome and weakóunless the action in the sentence is so impacting that we want to stress that the recipient was powerless against the source of action. Saying "I am saved" is such a sentence. It is NOT about "me". It is entirely about "I" being the recipient of action I could not control. Saying "I am saved" is the most humble, grateful, reverent thing a human can sayóbecause it acknowledges that One much greater than I acted upon me in a way that changes me forever. Colleen | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 273 Registered: 11-2004 |
I can imagine WOW if I said "I am saved" amongst a group of Adventists the reaction would be one where I would be considered bragging. I do believe that is because in Adventism works are considered part of salvation so you are actually declaring that you are good when you say "I am saved" among Adventists. However, if you say "I am saved" to a group of Christians who believe that we are not saved by our works, but that we have been born again into the kingdom of the Son of His love by the complete work of Jesus, you would find the reaction to be one where those Christians praise God because the people know that it is Jesus who saves. As an Adventist the phrases "I am saved" or "I have been born again" were not part of the lexicon. Conversion or baptism were the key words that signified a change in one's mind. The words to signify a change in one's spirit (i.e. saved/born again) were rarely spoken. | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 274 Registered: 11-2004 |
One thing I neglected to mention....Adventists do not seem to have a problem saying "I was baptized" or "I was converted". It is totally acceptable as an Adventist to talk about how we came to believe xyz during a revelation seminar or how I was baptized when I was x years old. However, it is considered bragging to talk about a change that happens on the inside like "saved". The term born again was never used. | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 89 Registered: 8-2006 |
Colleen, Well put. It appears that the politician changed hats. If I were drowning in the ocean and the Coast Guard came and plucked me out of the waves moments before I gave up all hope and died, I could say 'I am saved.' Would this be bragging? Would this drawing all attention to myself? Would this be trying to sound superior to others? Nonsense. WOW, I grew up around people who were afraid to say 'I am saved.' It was fear that kept them from saying it, not humility. The Christians I hang with now say with great admiration of their Savior, "I am Saved!" This is never done in pride or boasting, but rather in happiness, security and joy in their Lord. Jesus is the rock of their salvation! You see, you cannot be saved without a Savior. You must admit, saying, "Jesus is my Lord and my salvation." is pretty close. You basically reworded it but you can't say it because of fear. This is why I am no longer an SDA, and you can put that in your book. | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 90 Registered: 8-2006 |
Amen U2. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 427 Registered: 10-2002  |
U2bsda & others, The irony of what you've pointed out is worth noting: In Adventism we were able to talk only about what we had done... we had been baptised, we had believed, we had learned "the truth", we had begun keeping the Sabbath, we had come into the church, etc. In contrast, the Biblical sayings "I am saved" or "Jesus has saved me" were unacceptable. This was not merely because Ellen White forbade it, but because of the pervading "works" theology & Law-focus. The irony is that we would feel comfortable speaking of what we had done, but very uncomfortable speaking of what God had done! However, that in turn was because we felt like saying such a thing was clearly presumption. We were simply unable to focus on what Christ had accomplished -- we were only able to see what we ourselves had accomplished and been able to believe/effect. The idea that "God saves" was very difficult (and that in itself is further ironic when you consider that the name Jesus means "Yahweh saves"). In a nutshell, we simply didn't know that He could save us. ***** Colleen made a very good point. Salvation is not only knowing the One who has saved you, but it is also accepting your identity as He has spoken of you. Not only do we believe that He loves us, but we believe that we are who He says we are: we are His beloved. I can easily say, "Jesus loves me," but the moment I look in the mirror and say, "I am loved by Jesus", the moment we say that, we feel, "Really? Am I His beloved? Can that be true?" It is critically important for our sakes that we find out who we are in His sight and believe what He says about us. If we doubt what He says about us, we will be stunted in our growth and will have difficulty truly convincing others that He has loved them. How well can we teach that "Yahweh saves" if we have trouble believing He has saved us ourselves? Our great need in this day is to see the world through God's eyes -- and not only the world, but our neighbors. And not only our neighbors, but ourselves. The Bible---His Word---says that we are loved by Him and we are saved by Him. He didn't write those things with the intention that we refrain from affirming them for the sake of humility. Such a humility sounds wise and God-honoring at first, but to virtually ignore His word (and perhaps secretly wish it weren't written so bluntly) is actually less God-honoring and betrays our inability to accept the truth that He says about us: that we are loved and we are saved. | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 38 Registered: 9-2006 |
I am shocked. | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 93 Registered: 8-2006 |
Walk, Amazingly you changed your stance on this. When asked if you were saved you originally said, 1. Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 11:56 pm: "Fair enough Timmy: Am I saved? I love Martin Luther's response to that. When I look to myself I don't know how I could ever be saved. But when I look to Jesus I do not see how I could ever be lost. I preached a sermon recently entitled, "What You See Is What You Get". If I look to self I get more of me. If I look to Jesus, I get more of Him. Where I go depends on where I look." A day later you changed to saying, 2. Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 5:21 pm: Can I say, "I am saved"? "The answer is a resounding "YES". Why can I say that? Because Jesus died on the cross for me and I have accepted him into my heart by faith. I am His child and I praise His name for that." Now the dreaded question is this... How do you reconcile saying "I am saved"? The answer is a resounding "YES".... When your prophet, declared the "pen of inspiration", commanded that you do not. Remember.. "If we are disobedient, our characters are out of harmony with God's moral rule of government, and it is stating a falsehood to say, "I am saved." 1SM 315.1 (This is one quote of many) Every former Adventist on this forum had to ask themselves some very tough questions like this. It would have been much easier for me to stay in the church, that is where my family is, that is where the people I love are, but I came to a crossroad. Am I going to put Jesus at the wheel or keep a person there? The 18th fundamental doctrine of the Adventist church says, "The Gift of Prophecy: Prophetic gift of Ellen White." You don't have to answer this, but give it lots of thought, I had to, try not to be political, be as honest with yourself and your Savior as you possibly can. This should be a good read in your book. You will let me know when your book comes out, right? God Bless (btw- I think we should start another thread on the orphanes uncared for and the hungry. I think that would be an awesome topic.) | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 39 Registered: 9-2006 |
Okay, my 30 seconds of SHOCK is OVER!!!! Dear Colleen: What you say is true regarding your husband. That is a relationship of equals. However, a relationship with God is NOT a relationship of equals. All one has to do is see what happened when people encountered God in the Bible. Daniel, Ezekiel, John, (who said, "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead."). They were so smitten by even a tiny portion of His presence that they could not stand before Him. I rather doubt that is the kind of relationship you and Richard have! (grin) The fact is, the world today is filled with ME centered religion. In fact, the New Age Movement is based on me, myself, and I. One is told to, "look deep within oneself for truth." The new age says, "Trust your gut!" I say, "Trust your God!" "Me" centered religion is part of Satan's original lie. "YOU shall be AS God's", Satan hissed. I have a friend who is big time into the New Age Movement. If I said, "I am saved" she would probably agree whole heartedly with me and respond "so am I." Did you hear that? She would probably say, "I am saved." yet she knows nothing about a saving relationship with Jesus. But I have seen it over and over again. When I tell people how Jesus loved me when I couldn't love myself, people's ears perk up. They are interested. Why? Because most people, deep down inside, have a hard time loving themselves. I have touched a part of their heart where it hurts. And often, the immediate question, even if unspoken, is, "If God could do that for him maybe He could do that for me." Did you noticed in that last dialogue, I am talking about myself and God but I am making it very clear that I am not talking about a relationship of equals. I am saying, "HERE IS SOMEONE BIGGER THAN YOU AND I, WHO STOOPS DOWN AND HELPS THE BROKEN HEARTED. HERE IS SOMEONE WHO NOT ONLY HAS COMPASSION FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ME; HE IS BIG ENOUGH TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! I had a cat that knew when I was down. But that cat was not equipped to do much about it. God is! Now I am sure Richard is a wonderful man. But he is only a man. He does not have the power to create solar systems with a single word. He can have compassion for you but he is not powerful enough to forgive your sins and restore you to right standing with God. GOD IS!!! God has the POWER to transform lives today. He is the potter, I am the clay. He is a God of might and miracles. Yet, I, with all of my problems and fears and dysfunction can come ... And how do I come? Do I have to clean myself up first? NO! I can come just as I am without one plea, except thy blood was shed for me, and that thou biddest me come to thee. I can come just as I am, and waiting not, to cleanse my soul of one dark blot. Oh Lamb of God, I come. No, God and I are not equals, praise the Lord! Someone my equal cannot transform a heart of stone. But God can! Yes, I am gloriously SAVED!! But I say that in the deepest of humility because I want ALL the honor and glory and praise to go to the only One in the universe worthy of praise - my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. God bless, WalkOnWater | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 40 Registered: 9-2006 |
Dear Timmy: You ask a good question. Forgive me if I was unclear in my answers. No, I have not changed my position. There is no conflict between day one and day two. I do not brag about being saved. I prefer to brag about the One who is saving me. So on day one I avoided saying, "I am saved". On day two, I did not avoid it. However, by saying "I am saved" I do not believe God removes my free will. I am always free to choose to depend on myself for my salvation instead of God. Your other question is a good one too. I think there are some good answers but that is for another day. God's blessings on you brother, WalkOnWater | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 276 Registered: 11-2004 |
WOW said "I do not brag about being saved. I prefer to brag about the One who is saving me." I do believe that here we see the difference in the usage of the term "I am saved". You talk about the One who is saving you and not the one who (past tense) saved you. Would you agree more with the term "I am being saved" or the past tense "I am saved"? Is it a finished work or is there something else that needs to be done? | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 94 Registered: 8-2006 |
Fair enough. When you first started this thread you said: 1. I have always known people left the SDA Church but except for my own personal experience, I had not heard their personal stories. I guess I am naturally a curious person and I have always wondered why people leave the SDA Church. When I found out about the Former Adventist web site recently I was anxious to check it out so I could interact with people who could answer my questions... 2. I am writing a book on Adventism and I feel it is very important to understand as accurately as possible why people leave and why people join the SDA Church. First I hope you understand that my annoying questions to you were geared to hopfully help you obtain what you asked for, understanding as 'accurately as possible' why I left. Second, You said you just wanted to understand our stories... but now I am trying to understand yours, maybe this was your intent? Anyway You gave several examples of ways to not say, "I am saved." Here are a few: "My precious Jesus accepted me when I was so broken I couldn't accept myself. Jesus loved me when I couldn't love myself. Jesus forgave me when I could not forgive myself. Jesus rescued me out of the hell I had made of my life when I could not rescue myself. Jesus took my blackness and brought the light of His love into the depths of my soul. When I was nine years old a pastor came to our home and showed a bunch of slides of scary monsters and beast, talking horns and hell. He then said that I needed to get baptized 'or else.' About this same time my S.S. Teacher told the whole class that if Christ came and they were not baptized that they would not go to heaven. (All I could think of was those scary pictures the pastor showed us.) I begged my parents to let me get baptized. They finally realized that I wouldn't leave them alone until I got my wish. When I came up out of the water I looked around to see if Jesus had come, I was afraid that I didn't make. Relieved, I told one of my unbaptized friends that they had better get baptized or they would go to that scary place if Christ came. In this conversation I mentioned that I was saved because I was in Christ. An adult standing nearby overheard the conversation and harshly scolded me for saying I was saved. That was the last time I said it, until I left Adventism 2 years ago. (4 years ago I discovered that my brother in law had experienced the same thing... almost to a "T") So what I am trying to understand, looking at your 'alternatives' is how could any of these apply to 9 year old? What kind of alternatives do you recommend to the young ones in your church? God Bless, Tim | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 589 Registered: 7-2004  |
It's also interesting there is no mention in the list of how Jesus saved, the main reason He did save: to rescue us from the punishment we automatically had coming because we were born a sinner -- eternal hell. Regardless of anyone's interpretation on how long hell lasts, or what eternal means, Jesus certainly warned quite strongly about hell as if it were a literal place to be concerned about. See Matthew 5:29,30 and Matthew 10:28 and Matthew 25:46. He took our punishment upon Himself for us, and hell/eternal punishment is what He saved us from. The items in the list, Jesus loved, forgave, rescued out of the hell I have made of my life, brought love into my soul, etc. - almost any human could basically meet these for another human albeit imperfectly. But only Jesus (God) could ever pay the punishment of hell for us and raise our spirit to life so that we will never experience that punishment. No human can even sort of do anything like that. (Message edited by Raven on October 25, 2006) | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 590 Registered: 7-2004 |
In looking back at the original list, "Jesus is my Lord and my salvation" does have something do with being saved from eternal punishment, but it would be impossible to tell with the wording. It just really struck me looking at that list that the impact of God's grace is so much more powerful when one realizes what they are being saved from and that there is absolutely nothing like it and is completely impossible without Jesus. | ||
| Walkonwater Registered user Username: Walkonwater Post Number: 41 Registered: 9-2006 |
I hear all the stories here on FAF of trying to keep the law, and trying to be a good Adventist, and doing all the right things but not having any joy or peace or hope. I hear that loud and clear because for years I suffered through the same thing. In fact I would not have suffered so much if I had not taken my religion seriously. But I did take it seriously and so the demand that I be good enough, coupled with the fact that I found it imposable to be good enough, was pure hell. My heart goes out to people who have experienced that. And I can understand why someone would want to flee. Even a slug moves away from pain. That being said, here is my dilemma. I am dialoguing with people on this web site who tell me that Adventism is so hopeless and is so deceptive that "... there is nothing salvageable in Adventism."(See the current issue of Proclamation, for example, Page 9) Frankly, I do not believe that for one moment. I was steeped in Adventism. I was salvageable. The very heart of the gospel is one of HOPE!! The life and death and resurrection of Jesus means that NO person, NO church is unsalvageable! Jesus came to seek and to save what? The Lost, the unsalvageable. That is our great hope! That is the grand message of the Gospel! JESUS SAVES!! That no matter how dog eared, folded, spindled, and mutilated I am, I can cry out to Him in my miserable, unsalvageable condition and He hears and he acts on my behalf. (Now if that does not bring tears of joy to our hearts then we might want to check our pulse to see if we are still alive.) It may be convenient to view Adventism as beyond hope. It may be convenient to see is as nothing but a total deception and totally unsalvageable but there is only one that fits that description and that is Satan and his imps. Yes the Adventist Church has often fallen victim to Satan's efforts to keep it from seeing the true gospel. Yes the church is made up of people. And yes, often those people are just as miserable as you were. And yes, in their misery and judgmentalness they say things that hurt others because often all they feel is hurt. But unsalvageable? I don't think so. In fact I know it is not so! Last night we spent 2 and 1/4 hours praising God and praying together in our Prayer Fellowship. When the meeting was over, no one wanted to leave. God had been so real and so close we sat there in the afterglow of His presence. Please do not remove me from the Forum. I am not trying to win converts or defend Adventism. I know its problems well. But when I see what Jesus has DONE for me, I know there is hope! WalkOnWater | ||
| Timmy Registered user Username: Timmy Post Number: 95 Registered: 8-2006 |
I'm too blessed to be stressed and too anointed to be disappointed! (Just got this in my email, Good timing.) |
