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| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 481 Registered: 11-2004 |
From what I have read many people around EGW in her early years thought her visions were a result of mesmerism - hypnosis. Assuming the things that happened to her during a vision were what really happened are these things compatible with hynosis? I've heard of Christians having visions, but have not heard of any Christian having a vision and exibit the same things EGW did. Mostly those who have had a vision reported that nothing physically happened to them. What actually got me thinking about this was listening to the EGW audio stories on the EGW website. When they had her going into a vision it sounded so odd like it was staged or something weird was going on. I also noticed that they totally didn't mention the shut door - wonder why... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5969 Registered: 12-2003  |
U2bsda--about ten years ago I received a box of materials from someone who had collected copies of original documents and letters in their work in one of the church's Heritage Museums. One of the documents in this box was a letter written by a young woman who had been a member of a church where the young, unmarried Ellen and James had stopped and preached. This young woman wanted to observe one of Ellen's visions. In the afternoon after church (I believe at that time the day was Sunday), they all were out enjoying the afternoon. I don't remember the details, but they had stopped near a tree, and Ellen had a vision. In this young woman's recounting, Ellen gave her familiar explanations of seeing something, and James would say, "And do you see....?" Ellen would reply, "Oh, yes, I see..." and she would describe the thing James asked. He continued throughout the vision to ask leading questions about what she was seeing and hearing. She affirmed each of James's suggestions. Finally, James made a movement (I don't remember if it was a finger snap or exactly what--but it was a specific small motion), and Ellen emerged from her vision. It is also documented that Ellen's visions stopped about the time of menopause. At that time she began having dreams instead. These dreams are the ones of which she reported having the same handsome angelic guide. James was died in the early 1880's, as I recall, and Ellen continued having dreams and writing prolifically until her death in 1915. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 813 Registered: 9-2006  |
You know, I would just like to take a look at this a little and although attempting to examine what someone did a 100 years ago kind if invites censure on our part I think but even if it was today it may not be all that different, she was affirming to visions and there’s no real scientific way to refute it. So I would just like to ask the question of what might be wrong there, as u2bsda said “I've heard of Christians having visions, but have not heard of any Christian having a vision and exibit the same things EGW did. Mostly those who have had a vision reported that nothing physically happened to them.” Well let’s just lay aside exhibition although it may be important and ask the question “If Christians can have a vision why couldn’t Ellen have visions without censure? What is wrong with this picture? To try to demonstrate where I want to go and to try to clarify what I want to say about it through this poor medium of communication I will tell you of what I think the nearest I have ever come to what I consider “A vision”. After I had been saved for some three months I was standing in church one Sunday night and I really had my mind on Jesus. Now as I dwelt upon him a picture suddenly appeared across my mind of Jesus as he was being crucified. I had the sensation (sort of) of nails being driven into the hands, no sensation of pain, just the terrible vibrations and whump, whump, whump and the nails were mercilessly driven in. Then the vision switched to his feet as I saw the red blood drip off his toes and into the dry desert sand. I had a sense of his pure innocence of his blood as it dripped off his feet in drops of fast succession and I realized his innocence as he was crucified for us. At that time I began to speak in a language not my own giving praise to God in my spirit. The vision left and I was again fully aware of my surroundings, how long this taken I do not know nor did I care, I was lost in his presence if I might put it that way. And to this day I still get “Lost in his presence” and pray in an unknown language only God knows, I am never without my full faculties and I have no idea what is said in this language, only a sense that I am giving praise to God in the highest sense of the word. Well, what is the difference? Did I have a “vision”? I was standing on my feet with my arms lifted in praise when it started and I was on my feet when it was finished. Well, for one thing it had no effect on anybody else’s life, yes, in a way it was life changing for me I think, but that’s where that ends, I had no “word from God” for anybody and it concerned no one but me. It changed my life in the sense that from that day on I have a fuller realization of the terrible price he paid to atone for me who did not in any way deserve that atonement. So the big difference is that Ellen White began to effect other peoples lives and their own personal walk with God and began to give out instruction with authority and began to take authority over other people and as far as I can honestly tell that is usurping. Its much like the catholic system of going to the priest for confession but much worse than that, as far as I can tell it is coming between God and his people and that is just what it has done as far as I can tell. As far as I can honestly tell she was usurping authority from the most high which is a whole other ball game. I can’t see it any other way since it effects what people eat, wear, act and think. Can you see it some other way? Whatever I had, vision or not, may have been what I needed at the time for me to realize these things but it had no effect on the lives of those around me nor did they pay much attention to it only to raise their arms in praise to God for his great mercy, they knew my story and I don’t believe I told anyone what I had seen. I am only telling you this to verify the difference and that there is a difference, a huge difference, if someone tells me they have a word from God for me for my instruction I better know them personally and you can believe me if I tell you I am going to question them as to what authority and they better be able to do some explaining. God is perfectly able to speak to each of us by the Holy Spirit. I verify everything through the word of God and I mean everything, even if I think the Holy Spirit has spoken to me personally I verify that with the word. If some spirit comes to me and says “Don’t eat cheese I am going to begin thumbing through my Bible unless I already know that I have made a glutton out of myself eating cheese then in that case I might say “ your right Lord, I got to quit eating so much of that stuff before I have to get a liquid enema.” Common sense. But as far as I can tell that’s just where people failed, she began to usurp and folks began to follow a usurper, failing to verify in prayer and seeking God and the word. Far as I can tell this stuff wouldn’t spread if people would verify. Folks around her began to verify her and look to her instead of God and his word seems to me. They began to look to the little red books for comfort instead of the Holy Ghost which is “the” comforter. This is where there is still failure today, once you begin to verify you will get your hide out of that mess if you got a lick a since. IMHO. The cognitive dissonance is telling you to verify fer pete’s sake. Now this is just me talking in my old hick way but I don’t really care if that rock knocked her head clean off and she went around carrying it under her arm if it don’t line up with the word its just background noise. A usurper is a usurper whether it calls itself a church, Ellen or Thadious Thudpucker and anybody that begins to try to get between me and Jesus better bring their lunch cause we are agoin at it and you can take that to the bank. As far as the shut door, I think they are ashamed to mention it, they just tool right along so they can follow their usurper and in turn usurp the life of someone else. Was she mesmerized or under hypnosis of some sort if that is what you mean? I suspect they mesmerized each other about half the time and the other half allowing pride, greed and contempt to rule them and others more and more as time went on. I like what Jess Dixon said in his story. "On Christ the solid Rock I stand. All other ground is sinking sand. All OTHER ground, IS sinking sand” Just my take. River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5972 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, that is such good advice/insight. Thank you for being so clear. The issue is--we are all accountable to God as individuals standing alone before HIM. We cannot take anyone's word without our own work of verifying with Scripture and with our own prayers to know God's truth and His will. Colleen | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 483 Registered: 11-2004 |
Thanks Colleen and River! I've noticed when listening to the history as told by SDAs that EGWs visions were the basis for much of the doctrine. There were several instances where people were not agreeing about a doctrine and then she "went into vision" and based on what was said in the vision - the doctrine was agreed upon. I hadn't realized just how much her visions impacted their theology. Another thing I noticed was that EGW spent much of her time traveling away from her children. Didn't she write quite a bit about mothering? She was off traveling with James just 6 weeks after her 2nd baby was born! And this traveling wasn't just a day or two, but it appears as though she didn't see her children for weeks or months at a time! From the recording of events as SDAs tell it - it appears that Ellen didn't want to be away from her children, but James pushed the idea. | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 815 Registered: 9-2006 |
Kind of reminds me of the old song "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down". People kill'in each other in name of the Lord but its gonna drive old Dixie down. People stand by and assent to a man being sent out of his ministry and his church,and saying "Don't preach the Gospel here", they are assenting to murder far as I'm concerned, I tell you sometimes I get to thinking about those things and I get to feeling meaner that a junk yard dog with rabies, it just makes me wanna go out and chew the doors offa my old Chevy. I get to wanting to go out and gather up Gods little ones who have been injured by this thing and hug them and I can't and I get to feelin downright oniferious at times. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 816 Registered: 9-2006 |
Sorry. I guess I vented a little there. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 5978 Registered: 12-2003 |
it's OK, River. We all vent a little here! Again, we are so conditioned to people outside Adventism wondering why we left instead of rejoicing with us that we found Jesus that it a gift beyond words for you to UNDERSTAND. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 821 Registered: 9-2006 |
U2bsda I apologize for pulling off your subject here. I have heard there was such a thing as self Hypnosis. Then there are people that are expert in hypnosis who claim they can make you say or do whatever. How ever I think you have to be willing to be hypnotized in the first place. Anybody know anything about hypnosis and how it works? |
