| Author | Message | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 194 Registered: 10-2006 |
River, Yeah, it's a cult. People are spiritually abused and raped constantly, shut out, judged, condemned, false-shamed, considered lost if ever leaving the church, hatred for anyone on the outside, etc, etc, etc. Things in Denver are good. Currently,I am meeting withAdventist pastor, and one that is wavering. My nondenom pastors have seen SDA:The Spirit behind the Church, our prayer warrior group are starting to understand that there are so many out there who need some answers. I have been waiting for the Lord to direct me in a former adventist group in this area for 3 years now. I'm the one who wasn't ready, but it's getting close to show time! steve | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 1193 Registered: 4-2000  |
Thanks, Reb! Yes, I received your email message. My apologies for not responding earlier. It is always a treat to hear from you. Dennis Fischer | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1213 Registered: 9-2006  |
Gilbert and all, it does seem like every time the subject of cult as it applies to Adventism comes up someone is sure to say “Well, we need to be careful about applying “labels”. It is true the word cult carries so many different definitions that it is difficult to know just what one means by declaring such and such group a “cult.” Since this problem of “labeling” comes up every time a discussion comes up of whether or not we should call the Adventist organization a “cult” I wanted to give my understanding of the word. A similar definition is given by Louis Jolyon West: "A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgement, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of [consequences of] leaving it, etc) designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community." [26] (Wikipedia) While I do label the Adventist organization as a “cult”, it is not meant as a smear word against any individual. Dianna says she won’t label Adventism as a “cult” and her opinion is just as valuable as mine and her definition may be completely different from my own. While I said I sharply disagree with her, it was not out of disrespect for her or lack of love for her. I have clearly stated before that I think of her as a most kind and gentle person of a most kind and gentle heart. Possibly we disagree because of both our definitions of the word “cult” may be different and your definition may be different still. Primarily the reason I wanted to disagree with Dianna on the forum was the propensity I have seen for people to refuse to look at Adventism for what it really is, but certainly not meant as an attack on Dianna or Reb. While a Spirit of love must be maintained, a spirit of truth and honesty needs also to be maintained. I really don’t need to label Adventism “A cult” it pretty much takes care of that by itself under its own steam. But for the sake of clarity I have given my definition in the hopes that it will dissipate any idea that I would now (or) in past or future level the word “cult” as a smear word against any individual either here or anywhere else. I too wish for the love of Christ to be foremost in our hearts and mind’s. In future if on occasion I might use the word “cult” I will try to include that definition along with it for the sake of clarity and for the sake of that bond of love. River | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 58 Registered: 5-2007 |
Would we all agree that Jim Jones headed up a cult? Can it be said that the people who were slaughtered in the Jones Town Massacre were some sort of fanatics? Fanaticism = intense, uncritical devotion Most sda's are not really capable of critiquing their religion or beliefs, nor do they really want to, especially with former-sda's, I have noticed. So in this sense they have intense, uncritical devotion to ideas and a person. Not totally unlike the Jim Jones thing, just more subtle. In the end, the effects will be the same. | ||
| Stevendi Registered user Username: Stevendi Post Number: 196 Registered: 10-2006 |
Larry, That's it! In deciding whether a cult or not, look closely at the Kool-Aid and how it affects the consumer. Is it Kool-Aid, or is it Living Water? Is there really a significant chasm between the term "cult" and "cult-like"? Individuals should not bristle at these terms, they cannot be described by such, only a belief system. steve | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1214 Registered: 9-2006 |
Steve, One of our neighbors years ago had a well that was full of sulfur water, while it was good to drink it tasted awful, along came Kool Aide and the man took to putting grape Kool Aide in his water bucket and in summer time he drank so much of it that his sweat took on a purpleish tinge. I guess you could say his was Kool aide. Ha! River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1215 Registered: 9-2006 |
Colleen, Thank you for the reference to the article, I read this article in its entirety. I have, since I first started to become familiar with SDA about five years ago, purposely avoided websites and the internet in my studies of SDA. I was careful to give it a look from the Bible only as my source of information and to be guided by the Holy Spirit. I knew at any time that I used SDA on a search engine I would get a plethora of information pro and con to just about any church I wished to examine, I knew I would get information from people calling them anywhere from devils to saints and I knew I had to keep a clear and open mind and not be persuaded by a plethora of comments. About three and a half years in to these studies’s I happened upon Dale’s website quite by accident. So I decided to write him an e-mail and give him my analysis of what I had learned, he answered my e-mail a couple day’s later and dubbed the analysis correct and in his word “graced with the Holy Spirit and he mentioned he might like to send the article to you for Proclamation. I wondered at that time who in the world Colleen Tinker might be so I used a search engine with your name, I have a command search engine that uses 15 search engines on the web at the same time and so I quickly found my way here. Fortunately for me I see in hindsight that I did not contact any Adventist concerning any of their doctrine and so I did not end up on any of their mailing list! Ha. I do get a monthly article from a private person who enjoys writing short articles, I like to read them because it allows me a peak into the mind of a normal SDA, if there is such a thing, to see how he views scripture from the SDA world. It is quite revealing as his article are always of a Bible nature. The article you linked to here has nothing really new for me and yet it was interesting how two men can come to the same basic conclusions. I think my journey into the world of Adventism has a more spiritual emphasis than his, which is not to say that I am more spiritual than he or anyone else, I am just stating facts as I see them. I see the spiritual consequences of Adventism to hold a much greater significance than the beliefs behind it. There is no point to all this, I just wanted to write a recap of the events that led to my being here, and where I am today. It is time to do a through re-examination of where I have been, where I am going and my part in it concerning Adventist and Adventism, it is time to ask the hard questions and perhaps emerge with a clearer view with clearer goals. Again thanks for the link to the article, it was both informative and revealing in a sort of validating way, and I also want to thank you for your friendship. This website (Faf) has been a blessing and has opened my eyes to many things. River | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 943 Registered: 10-2002  |
Ha! This is one of the "phoenix" questions on the forum isn't it? It dies and then resurrects---is SDA a cult or not? I honestly don't care too much about the label, although if we're talking about the organization itself (instead of ALL its people), I would have little trouble in calling it a cult. But life and people are complex things, and while generalizing can be helpful at some times, many times it can also obscure the roots of the matter. The root of Adventism is completely cultic -- its foundation was laid without the knowledge of the gospel and with "angelic" guidance that did not testify to the gospel. This is the condemned "different spirit" that Paul spoke of in Galatians chapter 1. However, phrases of the gospel entered Adventism about forty years after its founding, and a hundred years later there were attempts to get closer to the gospel -- although the foundation (or rather, the spirit of the foundation) continued to act against it and confuse it. The result is simply a large body of people who are confused about who they are: some are raised focusing on Christ but not completely unveiled to His awesome finished work, others are raised with great emphasis on having the only truth. The confusing tension between the Bible and the Adventist foundation is the hallmark of life in Adventism. It was a cult that had parts who tried (and still try) to reform it, but that is unable to repent of being what it started as (and unable to clearly see the truth of how it began). Organizationally, yes, a cult. But the people today are generations still caught in the identity crisis, caught in the tension between the Bible and "ism" of Adventism. The degree of peoples' cultic-ness is proportional to the amoung that foundational Adventism is taught, emphasized and believed. Yet it is possible to say that there are well-intentioned, Jesus-believing people who are "in a cult" (in the organization of Adventism). By showing them the Gospel, and then in comparison to foundational (cultic) Adventism, things will become clear in God's timing. As they see Jesus, the nature of Adventism will become clear. But at the outset though, the question of Adventist identity (a cult or not?) is not the most important thing. The most important thing is that they see CHRIST's identity. When any of us see Him clearly, we know who we are and who we aren't. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 944 Registered: 10-2002 |
P.S. The more that God reveals that foundational spirit of Adventism to me, though, the less "confusing" the matter of the identity of AdventISM becomes. AdventISM is a cult. But today not all AdventISTS are willing to embrace all of the AdventISM. So there is the identity crises again -- caused by the cultic power of the foundational spirit. Haha, what am I saying? Just this: I think I just want to be sensitive with those who would react to the "cult" word. It is more important that they understand--step by step and with great love and care--it is more important that they understand who Jesus, His Gospel, and how Adventism was formed by a different spirit. I'm not going to insist on proving whether it is a "cult" or not. That takes up time that could be spent looking at the Gospel -- which in effect buries the Adventist foundation the more that Christ shines. On the word "cult", though, I live in Japan which has many cults, most of which have nothing to do with the Bible at all. Perhaps that odd word, "Christian-cult" is the most applicable to Adventism? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 6465 Registered: 12-2003  |
Good insights, Ramone. River, I agree with this: "I think my journey into the world of Adventism has a more spiritual emphasis than his, which is not to say that I am more spiritual than he or anyone else, I am just stating facts as I see them. I see the spiritual consequences of Adventism to hold a much greater significance than the beliefs behind it. " You have a way of putting the truth into such powerful words. I agree; you do have a more spiritual analysis of Adventism than the author of the above linked article has. In fact, your awareness of the spiritual reality of Adventism is actually fairly unusual and extremely helpful. I believe that the spiritual reality of the organization is the church's most dangerous and crippling part of the church. The doctrines can be argued; the spiritual reality is consistent and always there. It cannot be dismissed just because people don't want to believe it is real. I'd never thought about it quite so clearly, but this very issue—your spiritual understanding of Adventism—is exactly what has been so powerfully confirming and reassuring to me personally. To have someone "outside" look at the church and see—with more depth and clarity than I had allowed myself to see—the same thing that I have sensed, has been overwhelming to me. I have often felt pretty brittle, even numb, as I held onto my understanding of the spiritual nature of Adventism. My understanding has not been "popular" and has elicited much reaction and criticsm. But to see through your eyes, River, has been a gift from God. He has reassured me through you that I am not only not crazed, but I have, if anything, understated reality rather than overstating it. Again, I am not talking about individual Adventists. God is at work in each one, consistently wearing down their defenses so they can hear the true gospel. Thank you again, River. Colleen | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 289 Registered: 7-2005  |
Some part of me wants to call Adventism a cult, but another part of me wants to hold off on using that stark word. I prefer thinking of Adventism as a "diffiCULT subCULTure." I believe that using those words, which contain the word "cult," will enable me to more gently offer insight to both Adventists, former Adventists, and never-been Adventists into the nature of Adventism. I heartily approve of Ramone's view: "I think I just want to be sensitive with those who would react to the "cult" word. It is more important that they understand--step by step and with great love and care--it is more important that they understand who Jesus, His Gospel, and how Adventism was formed by a different spirit. I'm not going to insist on proving whether it is a "cult" or not. That takes up time that could be spent looking at the Gospel -- which in effect buries the Adventist foundation the more that Christ shines." Bravo, Ramone! Honestwitness | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 568 Registered: 7-2000 |
The problem with giving Adventism a 'pass' and not labeling them a 'cult', is that doing so deprives you of tools you need to talk to these folks. If you read 'Kingdom of the Cults', there is a very good chapter on witnessing to the cults. There are specific approaches that are recommended, such as insisting that any cult member you are studying the Bible with strictly define the terms that they use. 'Grace' means something different to a Mormon, and also to an SDA than an Evangelical. 'Inspiration' is another example of a term that cults twist around into their own interpretation. In addition to defining terms, understanding a cultic mentality can help one to understand just how far 'into' a cult a person is. You would be able to find what the 'hook' is that has the person snared in the organization and address that point. A study of other cults such as Mormons, JW's, even Jim Jones and David Koresh, gives a person an understanding of how cults work---and in turn, you can be a resource in your local churcha against the outreach of the cults. I've found that other Christians can see the cultic nature of Adventism when comparisons are made to other cults. I just can't see any reason for describing Adventism as anything but a cult. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 948 Registered: 10-2002 |
Agreed, Loneviking. However, what tends to happen (among us) is that the phoenix argument of whether it is "a cult" or not goes around in circles and in different incarnations. The important thing for us -- just like understanding grace -- is not the definition, but the spiritual reality of the roots. In other words, once we understand the spiritual roots of Adventism's beginnings, we can hit at those things. The definition of the whole tree is not as important as cutting the roots. At times the definition (cult) will be useful, and at other times it will instantly close the ears of those who might have otherwise listened. This is generally referring to talking to Adventists, however here on FAFF amongst those who have left, there is a lot to be learned from comparing different cults. Speaking of which, it would be interesting to have some former JWs and former LDSs on here, wouldn't it? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 1219 Registered: 9-2006 |
Ramone, I wholly agree with your intent to kindness toward those emerging from Adventism and maybe there are those who would instantly stop their ears when we label it a cult and you may be completely right and there are so many concepts of what a cult might be. What concerns me is that what I think I have witnessed on FaF is a failure by many to see the spiritual roots of Adventism, I think many see it as just a mental adjustment to be made and do not recognize the full force of Adventism. We don’t seem to have a problem with at least terming J.W. as cult but when it comes to Adventism we do. Why is that? Why must we give it such a harmless tone? I agree that this is a “phoenix” argument that keeps rising, as far as that goes from what I see, most of these arguments we go through on here are “phoenix” arguments. Someone comes on and inquires about soul sleep or some will have a thought on it and start a thread and the ones that write on here frequently probably groan just a little bit and say “here we go again”. The ones that write on here faithfully surely get tired of answering the same old questions and so I agree with you Ramone, we need to keep a spirit of kindness and I myself have a tendency to get a little sarcastic every once in a while. But now with this thread it has really got me to wondering just why it is that every time this Phoenix subject rises and someone uses the term “cult” as pertaining to Adventism someone crops up with “Oh, now don’t go to using labels”. Just why is this? Is it because of pride? Is that it? Every time this phoenix rises we see the word “label” used in refute. Personally I like labels, if I go to the pantry I want to know if I am opening a can of green beans or corn, is it squash or apricots? We have no problem classifying J.W., Mormonism, Jim Jones or David Koresh, or moonys as cults but when it comes to Adventism all of a sudden we can’t figure out what a “cult” is, and what amazes me about it is that Adventism is so heretical, the IJ and Ellen taking the lead, it is so heretical as to be preposterous. All it really is, is a cult doing its best to wear a Christian face, use Christian words usage in the right order and “they will never know”. We every one know what a “cult” really delineates in our language usage but every time it is mentioned on here as pertaining to Adventism we all of a sudden have a problem figuring out just what a “cult” is, why in the world is that? Listen, my take on things is a horse is a horse is a horse of course so just call him Mr. Ed. Adventism is a cult, a deceiving spirit, confusion at its worst, a lying deceiving spirit that would twist the Bible to attain it own goals and that is to keep people from finding and knowing Christ in his redeeming grace, it induces a grinding of the teeth, it contains no peace, a cloud with no rain, it grows but fails to produce figs. I will not bow to it, I will not kowtow it, I offer it no quarter, the battle lines have been drawn and the plumb lines have been laid and I did not draw the battle lines or lay the plumb lines, I just assess the battle field on which I find myself currently deployed. I do want to always want to be kind and gentle to those emerging from Adventism, those that have taken a stand and taken the blows for it have my utmost respect and sympathies, I have been touched deeply by your stories, I suppose that is why I am still here, I cheer them on, I want to encourage them. We all need encouragement, and have a need for validation every once in a while, Yesterday I got a return E-mail from Pastor friends whom I had written and just expressed appreciation for their ministry, they said they needed that, that they sometimes felt as if they were just “blowing into the wind”, all I did was give them a kind word and it served to validate them. I am willing to validate struggling Christians; I just am not willing to lie in order to do so. What I have learned is that following the Lord in his leading of his Holy Spirit is not always going to be “popular”, while one may validate you another will equally deride you and spurn you and sometimes you just may find yourself standing alone for a time, but if you bear it patiently God will lift you up in his own good time, that is what I have found. Reb, if you follow the Lord and find yourself standing alone for a time, be patient, God seems to have a thing for patience and we can learn that early on or the hard way, either way we will have to learn it. River | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4090 Registered: 3-2004  |
River, I know the roots of adventism. If I did not, I would not be here posting on this forum. I know some people consider adventism a cult. Because it is mixed with some truth, I will continue to say they have cult like beliefs. That is my preference and my choice. Diana ps: Love you and your sense of humor and your love of your adventists friends. | ||
| Spokenfor Registered user Username: Spokenfor Post Number: 75 Registered: 12-2003 |
For me it is very affirming to hear someone take a hard line on adventism and call it what it seems to me to be. I have felt for a long time that it is a cult. After leaving adventism, I read Anthony Hoekema's book, The Four Major Cults, among others on cults and spiritual abuse. Adventism fits the criteria for a cult and yes, it disguises itself well. The error is so carefully and subtly woven with what appears to be truth (right words, different meanings) that it can and does deceive those who are not completely alert. Even now, when I am in contact with adventist friends and family, I struggle with thinking maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's just a mixed up church with some doctrinal errors but overall not really bound by darkness. When I start thinking like that I get very discouraged and even wonder, if it's not so bad, why did we leave? And then, the Lord will give me a reality check, for example this thread, where He will clearly remind me that it is contaminated and bound by a force that is so slick that I cannot take my eyes off of Him for a second to look at it without being in danger of getting sucked into it's blackness. If I do, it immediately begins to pull on me and that is a spiritual force I do not want to have anything to do with. I have seen how it blinds and deceives those within it's clutches and my heart aches for them as they are held captive by something they cannot recognize. Adventists are some of the most sincere and devoted people I know and they are held prisoner by something they don't even know exists. I pray fervently that the Lord will open their eyes and let them see it for what it is that they may be set free! I believe it is a cult. Thank you River for your strong words. I appreciate them because they affirm what I believe in my heart to be true. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2014 Registered: 10-2004  |
Yes, I agree. Thank you, River, for telling it like it is. I'm with you, River, it totally baffles me how people talk about "labeling" or it being "inflammatory" or "offensive"--and yet, if we were talking about Mormonism or JWs, nobody would have those objections. (And none of us have ever said that one should always tell an Adventist--or Mormon or JW--to their face that their church is a cult.) Adventism is a cult. Why? Because, if you look at all the lists of marks/characteristics of a cult, Adventism totally fits the criteria (for both sociological cults and theological cults!). Jeremy | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 950 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hi River, I completely understand with what you're saying. The reason that it's so difficult is twofold: 1) Pride -- yes, the number one reason is simply that we were taught strongly that Adventism was *not* a cult, that it was not like LDS or JW. It's still hard to shake that after many years. 2) The diversity of Adventists -- particularly in liberal areas that focus more on grace where conscious knowledge of Ellen was minimal. If we happened to grow up in such an area, we loosely had an idea that our church was more true, but didn't emphasize or dwell on it very much, and we read mostly non-SDA authors and got our spiritual fix there instead of from the SDA roots. When leaving this kind of area of Adventism, we look back and wonder, "Was *that* really a cult?" For this latter group, it is much like the family altar in Japan (I wrote about this in the May/June issue of Proclamation) -- there are many Christians who still keep the family altar (a Buddhist altar to one's ancestors), trying to hold onto it as well as to Christianity. The altar does exert an influence on the family. But does that make the family "non-Christian"? Good question. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 4100 Registered: 3-2004 |
Ramone, I know some really God centered adventists, who if I had told them they belonged to a cult would not believe me and may have hindered their leaving that organization. For me it is not pride, but the diversity we see in Adventism. The church I attended here in Vegas is a very liberal church. Until God tells me differently, I will continue to say the SDA church has cult like beliefs. Diana | ||
| Larry Registered user Username: Larry Post Number: 65 Registered: 5-2007 |
Ditto what Spokenfor, Jeremy and River said. Call it by its true character. What did Walter Martin say? It polarizes around what one persons take on the Bible is, and that is egw. CULT. |
