| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1447 Registered: 11-2005 |
I just posted something so profound over on CARM that I wanted to share it with you here. Just thinking about it blows my mind. Diana made the comment I cannot wrap my brain around how connecting with Jesus involves selling more EGW books to adventists. For me to connect with Jesus involves reading and studying the Bible. Throw out the EGW books and the clear word and just concentrate on the Bible.That got me thinking. Here was my response. [You really have to read the formatted version at CARM in order to get the full benefit.] Here is how it works. Revelation 19:10 talks about the testimony of Jesus. We Christians consider the testimony of Jesus to be the gospel. Adventists substitute Ellen White for the spirit of prophecy, and make Ellen White the gospel that Jesus came to this earth to give us. That is how they can say that they are "Connecting (you) With Jesus" by providing you with Ellen White's writings -- their "gospel"! Let's look at what Revelation 19:10 says in various translations. Revelation 19:10 (King James Version) 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 19:10 (New Living Translation) 10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said, “No, don’t worship me. I am a servant of God, just like you and your brothers and sisters[a] who testify about their faith in Jesus. Worship only God. For the essence of prophecy is to give a clear witness for Jesus.” Revelation 19:10 (Contemporary English Version) 10I knelt at the feet of the angel and began to worship him. But the angel said, "Don't do that! I am a servant, just like you and everyone else who tells about Jesus. Don't worship anyone but God. Everyone who tells about Jesus does it by the power of the Spirit." Revelation 19:10 (Holman Christian Standard Bible) 10 Then I fell at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow slave with you and your brothers who have the testimony about Jesus. (A) Worship God, because the testimony about Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10 (Wycliffe New Testament) 10 And I felled down before his feet, to worship him. And he said to me, See thou, that thou do not; I am a servant with thee [And I fell down before his feet, for to worship him. And he said to me, See, that thou do not; I am thine even-servant], and of thy brethren, having the witnessing of Jesus; worship thou God. For the witnessing of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Now here is something that Reb should be able to relate to since his specialty is math. The formula is within the reach of most of us. In each translation above we see a mathematical relationship where A = B. Since in each case these two items are equal, we will present it as B = A. This will immediately help you to see what the real relationship is between the two objects within the sentence. The reality is that Adventism blasphemes the God's true "gospel of adoption" with their attempt to set Ellen White's counterfeit "gospel of probation" in the seat of the genuine gospel! the spirit of prophecy = the testimony of Jesus KJV the essence of prophecy = to give a clear witness for Jesus NLT the power of the Spirit = (how) Everyone tells about Jesus CEV the spirit of prophecy = the testimony about Jesus HCSB the spirit of prophecy = the witnessing of Jesus WNT And so we consistently see that John, the angel and for that matter each of us ... have within us the "spirit of prophecy" when we "give a clear witness for Jesus."This verse has absolutely nothing to do with Ellen White. Adventists take Ellen White and place her in the seat of the gospel of Jesus. That is how they can say that they are "Connecting (you) With Jesus" with a straight face. They replace the rightful seat of the Holy Spirit as the seal of God with a day that He created, the Sabbath. They likewise replace the gospel of Christ with their own false prophet, Ellen White. If that isn't cultic doctrine, I don't know what is. That should make us as Christians very, very angry. I suppose Pastor Kevin Morgan will claim, as usual, that I got this concept off of "one of those anti-Adventist websites". The fact is, Pastor Kevin, that I did "think", and this is what I came up with all by myself -- this evening in response to Diana's question. Gilbert Jorgensen It has been 164 Years, 2 Months, and 1 Days since October 22, 1844 | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6174 Registered: 3-2004  |
I am glad you answered my rhetorical question. I learn so much from what you write. That is God using you. Diana L | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9182 Registered: 12-2003  |
Gilbert, so true!! I've also "thought" about that same thing, and I even remember Dale Ratzlaff also "thinking" (imagine that—thinking!) and writing in Proclamation once the same idea. Have you received any responses from you really significant post over there? I totally understand your emphasis of "think"--the people who argue with you tend to be pretty demeaning. The lies that we were taught to believe as truth look more and more heinous to me as time goes on...and we're accused of intellectual dishonesty Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1448 Registered: 11-2005 |
Here is a more detail post that I just did: http://exposingadventism.com/blogs/gjorgensen/sda/gospel/connecting-with-jesus/ | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1449 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen, the discussion you are referencing was actually about how Ellen White teaches that Eve wandered away from Adam and was tempted when she was alone, but the Bible states in every translation (with the Hebrew word 'im') that Adam was with her. Of course that contradicts what Ellen White wrote, and we mustn't ever contradict Ellen White. We must keep in mind "It is from the standpoint of the light that has come through the Spirit of Prophecy (Mrs. White’s writings) that the question will be considered, believing as we do that the Spirit of Prophecy is the only infallible interpreter of Bible principles, since it is that Christ, through this agency, giving real meaning of his own words." (from the tract The Mark of the Beast, p. 1, G. A. Irwin, General Conference President)I pointed out to Pastor Kevin Morgan Lingusitic evidence in Hebrew, Greek and English plainly shows that Ellen White specifically contradicted Genesis 3:6. But where did she get the idea that Eve was alone at the tree? Second Enoch 31:6 and Jubilees 3:20-22 contain that idea. However, Enoch and Jubilees are apocryphal books which Christians have excluded from the Bible for 2,000 years.Pastor Kevin's response was The obscurity vanishes as we compare Scripture with Scripture. Now scan Ellen White's writings for anything further on "Apocrypha" or "hidden book," and you don't find anything to guide you in understanding what she meant. If this were something she emphasized throughout her writings, it would help us to understand.I responded Pastor Kevin, what is so "obscure about that"? I suppose her statements about not playing baseball, attending the theater, playing chess or checkers, or playing in general are equally "obscure"?Of course we don't know. We just don't know. It could be, but again then it might not be. And we haven't known for a long time. And we don't know today. Most likely tomorrow we still won't know. Who knows? Gilbert Jorgensen (Message edited by jorgfe on December 23, 2008) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9184 Registered: 12-2003 |
Gilbert, I applaud what you are doing. Pastor Kevin just can't let go...and what a blessing! He exposes the Adventist underside. Colleen | ||
| Wolfgang Registered user Username: Wolfgang Post Number: 257 Registered: 10-2005 |
Gilbert I remember years ago studying with my husband as we were in the church and he would always say,"dont they get it the Spirit Of Prophecy is always about Jesus never about EGW" It would make his skin crawl whenever ppl would refer to the SOP as EGW,in fact he gave a sermon once on it,and the ppl's reaction to that was not favorable. But it was another notch in our belt of getting OUT! I told my husband the other day how I hate EGW and all the false teachings she has distributed over the 100 + yrs. but I suppose I shouldnt hate her,right,perhaps dislike would be more appropriate. Dawn | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 327 Registered: 2-2008 |
What would he say about the fact that John wrote at the beginning of Revelation that he was on the island of Patmus because of the Word of God and the Testimony of Jesus? Would this mean that John was at Patmus because of EGW's writings? Where's the consistency? ~vivian | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1248 Registered: 5-2007  |
Gilbert, I have had the very same understanding of this verse (Rev. 10:10) for many years, long before there was an internet to research the subject. And, this is a common understanding of Spirit led Christians the world over. In simple terms, we should recall the very first couple of verses of Revelation: Rev. 1:1,2 KJV The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. The words of Jesus Christ given via an angel and recorded under inspiration by John, is the Spirit of Prophecy. As you say; if A = B then B = A. These are the very words of Jesus, therefore the Spirit of Prophecy is Jesus Christ. Rev. 19:10 KJV And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. We are to worship only God, the Spirit of Prophecy, not the messenger (John or an angel) therefore it could only be referring to Jesus Christ. Even if, and that is a real big "if", Ellen were a messenger of God, she still could not be the "Spirit of Prophecy". Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3896 Registered: 9-2006  |
Quote: That is how they can say that they are "Connecting (you) With Jesus" by providing you with Ellen White's writings -- their "gospel"! End of quote. Now Jesus says: John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. If the great "They" out there are trying to connect you with Jesus by providing you with Ellen White's writings -- their "gospel"! Then wouldn't the great "They" out there (who ever the they is) be thieves and robber also? Or am I off a bit, I confess I am having a tad of a meltdown.  River | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1250 Registered: 5-2007 |
River, As usual, you have a way of focusing on the central issue....and no....you are not having a meltdown. But, if you really think you are, come up here and melt all the stuff in my driveway.  Yes, they are "thieves". Phil | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3897 Registered: 9-2006 |
I need to melt my own off. We got about 4 more inches of snow and it's still snowing. Moosemeat ain't got nothing on us!! I may have to go out and bring down game with my bare teeth!! Its so cold even the tire tracks came to my door wanting in!! I think that Adventist is froze to the tree you took a swing around!! | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1252 Registered: 5-2007 |
Well River, When Moosemeat and her family get down here, they will feel right at home, sort of. After all, anything up their way, that is above minus 25 degrees is considered balmy weather for them. P.S. Right now, you can not even see yesterday's tire tracks....they must be indoors somewhere. Anyway, praise the Lord. Since I couldn't get my car anywhere near where it normally belongs, the carport was empty when it collapsed to the ground a couple hours ago. Gilbert, To paraphrase Kevin Morgan within the context of current weather conditions: "The obscurity vanishes in a snow drift of empty words." Phil | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 577 Registered: 7-2007 |
Throughout all the Old Testament, the prophets (by the Holy Spirit) foretold the Messiah's coming. So of course the testimony of Jesus would be the spirit of prophecy. Prophecy pinpointed just when the Messiah would come and told that He would suffer and become the atonement for the human race. Phil, I was noticing one of the verses you quoted. Revelation 19:10. It says that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, but since Adventists believe that the "spirit of prophecy" is Ellen White's writings; they might easily re-write the verse to say: "...I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have Ellen White's writings..." Somehow I never thought of that when I was a Seventh-day Adventist. I guess I was too busy scrambling to make sure that I "interpreted" the Bible "right" - through Ellen White lenses. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1255 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, Gilbert started this thread with that verse as the theme in relation to his debate with Kevin Morgan over on CARM and questions her apparent use of the Apocrypha. See his post #1449, above. I was simple connecting it with Rev. 1:1,2. In other words, Revelation, the Words of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy. Once again, context is everything. Phil | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6181 Registered: 3-2004 |
I didn't think when I was SDA period. I was a good robot. Thank you God for taking me out of that and getting me to think for myself. God has changed me and I am so thankful. Diana | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 578 Registered: 7-2007 |
Phil, thank-you for quoting that verse! I was able to see how ridiculous that Adventists are by thinking that. That's all I was doing. Not criticizing you. Anyway thank-you again for pointing that verse out! It's ridiculous of Adventists to think that the angel and John had Ellen White's writings. (I shouldn't have used your name. I should have just pointed out how ridiculous Adventists are when they think that Ellen White's writings are the "spirit of prophecy." Sorry about that.) | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1258 Registered: 5-2007 |
Asurprise, Not a problem. I just wanted Gilbert to get credit for starting this topic. All I was doing was expanding on his 'thought process'. You all get me to 'think', Gilbert especially. And, if it means being critiqued...so much the better. Here on this forum, we do it as loving brothers and sisters in Christ. If and when I ever get down to your corner of the world, I plan on putting a 'face' to your name, along with Handmaiden. Phil | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 579 Registered: 7-2007 |
Oops, you're right. I looked at the title of this thread and sure enough; it said "Revelation 19:10..." Now I DO have egg on my face for sure! Sorry Gilbert. Yes, I would like to meet you. It would be nice to meet another former Adventist | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 580 Registered: 7-2007 |
And I'm sure Handmaiden would like to meet you too! |
