Post Number: 1007
|Posted on Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 12:07 pm: || |
I find it not only "sad" but quite disturbing that Kenneth Samples
writes what he does regarding adventism.
If this Kenneth Samples is (one and the same) as the Kenneth Samples,
who is an adjunct professor of Religion at Biola University, in La Mirada Ca., I have a personal interest.
I have two grandchildren who are students there this year !
Since Biola is a Christian University, students are required to take Religion classes.
The past President of Biola, Dr. Louis Talbot, (1932-1935 & 1938-1952) wrote quite
extensively regarding his stance on adventism.
He believed that adventism was a cult, and should be exposed for the heretics they are,
and not included in the brotherhood of Christianity!
It seems that he and Kenneth Samples do not agree. More is the pity.
Post Number: 2998
|Posted on Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 12:25 pm: || |
If Kenneth Samples is reading this thread, I'd like to respond to him myself. I'd like to say:
Dear Mr. Samples,
Unlike the LDS church, which considers that their current church leader is their current "prophet," Adventists still consider Ellen White to be a continuing and authoritative source of doctrine within the church. They believe all her writings are as inspired as the Bible, and if an SDA tells you otherwise, they are lying.
I would like to suggest going to the SOURCE - her, herself; and see what the church believes underneath all the evangelical-appearing rhetoric. I'd like to quote a bit from her book; "Spirit of Prophecy" volumn 1 and see what you think of it. (That's not to be confused with SDAs referring to her entire works as spirit of prophecy because SDA pastors will often call her "my favorite author" or her writings as "spirit of prophecy.")
Anyway, now to the quote. (You can buy this book at any Adventist Book Center in any city, that is, if they haven't pulled this book off the shelves ostensibly to keep people from being confused.) The stores are open to the public.
This is from the second paragraph of chapter one; page 17 of the little hardcover I have:
"The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence. The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son he had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was his Son to work in union with himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. His Son would carry out his will and his purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The Father's will would be fulfilled in him.
Satan was envious and jealous of Jesus Christ. Yet when all the angels bowed to Jesus to acknowledge his supremacy and high authority and rightful rule, Satan bowed with them; but his heart was filled with envy and hatred. Christ had been taken into the special counsel of God in regard to his plans, while Satan was unacquainted with them. He did not understand, neither was he permitted to know, the purposes of God. But Christ was acknowledged sovereign of Heaven, his power and authority to be the same as that of God himself. Satan thought that he was himself a favorite in Heaven among the angels. He had been highly exalted; but this did not call forth from him gratitude and praise to his Creator. He aspired to the hight of God himself. He gloried in his loftiness. He knew that he was honored by the angels. He ha a special mission to execute. He had been near the great Creator, and the ceaseless beams of glorious light enshrouding the eternal God, had shone especially upon him. Satan thought how angels had obeyed his command with pleasurable alacrity. Were not his garments light and beautiful? Why should Christ thus be honored before himself?"" Spirit of Prophecy; VOL 1, by E.G. White (1st chapter, second and third paragraphs.)
Mr. Samples, please don't go by their words. Go by the writings of their "prophet."
Here's another quote by Ellen White that I just looked up in the E.G.White estate:
"Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14."
"The Great Controversy" chapter 24 "In the Holy of Holies."
Most every Adventist will have the book "The Great Controversy," Mr. Samples. When I was an Adventist, I went door to door with cheap copies of them to give out, even though Adventists rarely do such a thing. I was eager that the "truth" be brought to everybody. And if someone misunderstood and thought I was passing out "Southern Baptist" books as happened once, I let them think that, figuring a little deception was good as long as it led them into the "truth."
Thanks for reading this.
Post Number: 1982
|Posted on Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 12:47 pm: || |
The saddest part, to me, is that so many SDAs who haven't the slightest clue of the Gospel will read these statements as validating their continued involvement and acceptance of SDAism.
If the were truly "testing EGW's writings against Scripture" what conclusion would they have to reach about her as a prophet? Yet I haven't seen these SDAs proclaiming that she was a false prophet. The choice is not Always True Prophet, Sometime True Prophet, or Rarely True Prophet it is much simpler, the visions were from God or from Satan.
Ask an SDA to give up the Sabbath and see how far the Gospel has permeated their mindset. These "grace" SDAs cling to the Sabbath as vehemently as their conservative brethren-while at the same time doing whatever they please on the day as long as they called it the day of worship.
Find out whether they believe that God in consubstantial. Find out if they believe He is three beings who work closely together or if He is truly One.
Rather than being an SDAism that is close to mainstream, this so-called grace-oriented SDAism is really an even more dangerous deception.
Post Number: 1008
|Posted on Sunday, March 10, 2013 - 7:49 pm: || |
Your 'egw' quotes above just make me sick
The whole thing reads like some children's 'fairy tale'!
And to think, she had the audacity to claim, "Everything" she wrote, came GOD's mouth to her ear!
But, for GOD's Grace and Mercy, I would still be believing in 'egw' and her 'tales'~
Post Number: 2999
|Posted on Monday, March 11, 2013 - 8:44 am: || |
To add to what Rick said above, Mr. Samples, please read the answers in their publications rather than get the answers from their mouths.
Post Number: 3000
|Posted on Monday, March 11, 2013 - 9:02 am: || |
Mj; not the "fun" children's fairy tales, where the prince rescues the captive princess and they live happily ever after, but the kind where the parents scare the children into obeying; such as: "if you don't obey Mommy and Daddy, the monsters under the bed will get you!"
Come to think of it, the real gospel IS the Prince coming to rescue the princess and they live happily ever after! All the princess has to do is say "yes" to His proposal. All the false religions say: "oh, that's too easy. There's gotta be works y'know. God helps those who help themselves!"
The trouble with that thinking is that it keeps people from even accepting Jesus finished work because it teaches people that salvation is partly their doing and partly God's doing. That's a whole lot worse, Mr. Samples, than teaching that Jesus did something weird for 2000 years after He rose; and dispite their vehement protestations that they believe salvation is a free gift like the Bible says, they still believe that people will be saved or lost in the end because of their "own diligent effort."
Post Number: 161
|Posted on Monday, March 11, 2013 - 11:27 am: || |
I'm afraid you have been terribly deceived (along with millions worldwide). We, here on this Forum, know what that's like. I'd just pray that in your quiet, alone time with God, you'd ask for the humility to hear the truth about this. I know from experience, as do most other former SDAs, that it's rather humiliating at first to acknowledge one has been completely deceived. I, personally, was horrified. It's embarrassing, especially if you have taken a public stand and published articles defending Adventism! However, there is no greater freedom than the freedom of truth!
You stated in your letter posted above that you'd adhered to the "Golden Rule of Apologetics," giving the benefit of the doubt to the SDA scholars and administrators. Unfortunately, that was your first mistake. You see, you can't give the benefit of the doubt to a cult that purposefully deceives you. In SDA administration there are really only two options: 1)The SDA leader knows the truth and is lying to you, or 2)The SDA leader does not know the truth because he/she is steeped in utter deception and isn't aware of it. Either way, you'll NEVER get the real story from an SDA who is attempting to defend their faith - NEVER. Speaking to administration is a waste of time. Their only goal is to either preserve the SDA corporation or to defend against their own feelings of uneasiness when contradictions between the Bible and SDA doctrine are addressed.
I'm sure you've seen Walter Martin discuss SDA doctrine with Dr. William Johnson, editor of The Adventist Review, on the John Ankerberg Show. If you watch this entire interaction, you can see very clearly the "double-speak" Colleen mentioned and you'll also see that Walter Martin did call Dr. Johnson out on very specific issues. There is a sort of circular reasoning that occurs and as the show goes on, Martin becomes increasingly frustrated. When pressed, many times Dr. Johnson won't commit to a "yes" or a "no." That's because he's covering up truth and is being controlled by the silent, but powerful fears generated by Ellen G. White. I believe that Walter Martin was deceived by the SDAs ability to appear transparent and by their friendly persona. This hides the ugly underbelly, which is really, really hard to see.
The SDA church is the perfect example of a wolf in sheep's clothing. You see the wolf-sheep and it looks like all the other sheep, except, it has rather large hooves and eyes. You mention this to the wolf-sheep and it tells you that you're crazy and that it doesn't have large hooves and eyes. You insist that you see what you see and then the wolf-sheep admits that only a few special sheep have these features. He tells you that it is an expression of the special relationship he and his wolf-sheep family have with the shepherd. He tells you that his big eyes and hooves help protect him from harm and that if you lie down under a tree from Friday night sundown to Saturday night sundown, you'll grow bigger eyes and hooves too. These features will be a sign that you REALLY love the shepherd and are a faithful sheep and, consequently, the shepherd will pay special attention to you and protect you more than those other sheep. This wolf-sheep will spend his days mingling amongst the other real sheep, trying desperately to convince them that they aren't good enough the way they are and that they need large eyes and hooves (which they can get ONLY if they lay under a tree all day Saturday) to prove allegiance to the shepherd and to be assured that they won't be attacked by a wolf...
Sounds pretty crazy, huh? This is Adventism. It hides out in the open with the other sheep so that no one suspects it's a wolf. But, if you question it, it tells you you're crazy and you just don't understand.
As Rick already mentioned above, suggest to a "Gospel-oriented SDA" to give up Sabbath and become a "Sunday worshipper." See how far the Gospel goes then...
Post Number: 1009
|Posted on Monday, March 11, 2013 - 2:13 pm: || |
Thank-you for sharing the link to the debate between Walter Martin
and the editor of the "Review"~
I actually watched the whole thing!
It is my understanding that Mr. Martin died, before he was able
to write another book, on his current opinions
Post Number: 14326
|Posted on Monday, March 11, 2013 - 11:12 pm: || |
One more thing (added to the great posts above): I'd like to challenge Mr. Samples' belief that he will get the truth only by talking to Adventists. There is an opinion among some that talking to formers mean getting a biased view because they "have an axe to grind".
In truth, this belief is a deception. People leave cults because they are abusive and wrong. Those who have been in and have left are the ones who can provide the "inside knowledge" that the members will not give.
It is extremely frustrating to hear brothers and sisters in Christ claiming they "know" about Adventism based on their extensive talks with MEMBERS and administrators. Why would they assume those members are telling the truth?
Good investigative reporting looks under all the rocks, not just the biggest rocks.
Post Number: 162
|Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 6:49 am: || |
Amen and Amen!
Why is it that when an ex-Mormon tells a Christian about the secret temple rituals, satanic handshakes, belief in spirit children, etc., he is believed and the Christian is horrified? But a former SDA's information about the IJ, Satan being the scapegoat, the Sabbath being the seal of God on the believer, etc. is ignored or judged as the attacks of a disgruntled person working to undermine a legit Christian denomination! We are the ONLY ones telling the truth. In the same way, a Christian researcher can't go to the current Mormon "prophet" or to BYU or any of their large churches to get the true and complete story about their beliefs. They would present a picture similar to what the SDA administrators do.
The only reason we are FORMER SDAs is because there was something seriously wrong with staying an SDA. A legit Christian denomination typically doesn't have people who leave that denomination ban together in support of one another and work at exposing the ugly truths.
Former SDAs are "formers" for a reason. It would be wise to listen to them! Interestingly, although we have vastly different backgrounds and span decades in age, we all had the same fear-driven SDA belief system. The SDA church systematically brainwashes you, so a current member isn't going to tell anyone the truth. I can speak from experience on that... As an SDA I would regularly minimize our "unique" beliefs and differences when non-Adventists would ask me about Adventism.
It's so disheartening to have Christians kind of roll their eyes or give me the proverbial pat on the back when I tell them the truth of Adventism. Like it really isn't that bad... What motivation would I have to lie about it? I lost everything in leaving Adventism. It really doesn't make sense to leave it unless there is a REALLY good reason! And, come to find out... there is. JESUS!!
Post Number: 14328
|Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 7:32 pm: || |
SOO true, Lyrical! Absolutely true.
Post Number: 14329
|Posted on Tuesday, March 12, 2013 - 11:40 pm: || |
Here is a link to Paul Carden's talk at the FAF weekend. He even mentions Kenneth Samples and his 1980's articles on Adventism. He is very powerful in his admission that he "crossed a threshold" regarding Adventism, that Walter Martin "anesthetized" him, and he has come to see that Adventism distorts every doctrine of the Christian faith.
Very, very powerful talk: .http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UFj1oI0tX0
Post Number: 1012
|Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2013 - 8:25 am: || |
Thank-you so much for sharing the link to Paul Carden's talk.
I, will also, be sharing it with people I know!
Post Number: 17
|Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2013 - 9:06 am: || |
I have witnessed K Samples in one of his talks, he mentioned the SDA church and the Sabbath observance and he took the effort and paused to say "..but I believe they are christian". I approached him after the talk to share my point of view with him and he was unmovable.
It seems to me that he is aware that there are a few good Christian doctrines as well as good people in there - true - and doesn't want to upset them.
The problem is that you don't leave Sodom continue in its ways, because Lot is in there, you make Lot leave Sodom.
How come he endorsed Dale Ratzlaff book Sabbath then? In which he also stopped short of going all the way to apply the label cult.
Truth is, nobody is perfect and able to stand to ALL truth.
Post Number: 735
|Posted on Wednesday, March 13, 2013 - 9:43 am: || |
Thanks for the link Colleen, really good.