Post Number: 133
|Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 7:10 am: || |
The Word of Promise® NKJV Audio Bible
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Thankful for this group.
Can you guys help me with understanding of the below? I believe Paul has the 10c's in view in the below, the but the phrase "contained in ordinances" throws me a bit. Any help you can provide would be appreciated.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,
16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Post Number: 170
|Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 11:19 am: || |
Parallel with 2 Corinthians 3:
7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
Post Number: 171
|Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 11:22 am: || |
Jews don't separate the Ten Commandments from the rest of Torah as we have been taught to do. They are a unit. Bear in mind that the whole Torah is the word of God; however, much of it was written to and intended for Israel alone.
"But there is an additional aspect of this controversy that is of concern from a Jewish perspective. In Talmudic times, the rabbis consciously made a decision to exclude daily recitation of the Aseret ha-Dibrot from the liturgy because excessive emphasis on these statements might lead people to mistakenly believe that these were the only mitzvot or the most important mitzvot, and neglect the full 613 (Talmud Berakhot 12a). By posting these words prominently and referring to them as "The Ten Commandments," (as if there weren't any others, which is what many people think) schools and public buildings may be teaching a message that Judaism specifically and consciously rejected. "
Post Number: 172
|Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 11:42 am: || |
Also, read the Ephesians passage with the following in mind to decipher what Paul is referring to.
Colossians 2 is a close parallel with Ephesians 2. In Ephesians Paul is teaching that the wall between Jews and Gentiles has been broken down in Christ, through the cross. This "wall" consisted of ordinances/commandments that were intended to show that the Jews were God's covenant people.
The New Covenant abolishes these particular requirements for the people of God, and they consist of:
2. Kashrut (Levitical food laws of clean and unclean)
In Colossians Paul also speaks of nailing commandments to the cross; but in Colossians the three things mentioned above are identified; circumcision (v. 11), kashrut and Sabbath (v. 14).
There's too much to comment on here, however Jews recognize that Gentiles were never given these laws, and that they could have a part in the coming kingdom without these observances. Here's a quote from Wikipedia under "God Fearer":
"Actual conversion to Judaism would require adherence to all of the Laws of Moses, which includes various prohibitions (kashrut, circumcision, Sabbath observance etc.) which were generally unattractive to would-be gentile (largely Greek) converts."
(Message edited by leifl on December 02, 2017)
Post Number: 173
|Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 11:53 am: || |
As a conclusion, it is true that the Ten Commandments are no longer our master, Jesus is; however they (and the whole of Torah) do contain moral laws that extend to Christian believers (from honoring parents to prohibition against incest and bestiality).
So even if Paul is not naming the Ten Commandments in Ephesians 2, he is including it in the legal code which he is referring to in Ephesians 2, Colossians 2, and 2 Corinthians 3.
Where Adventists err, is that they consider the Ten Commandments (and the Sabbath in particular) to be, as a unit, the "moral law". Jews do not view the Sabbath as a moral or universal commandment, and the fact that it is contained in the list of feast days (Leviticus 23), and in light of the teaching in Exodus 31:12-18, and from its very nature as a repetitive "ceremony", it is plain that it is not moral, but ceremonial.
Perhaps these links will help:
(Message edited by leifl on December 02, 2017)
Post Number: 825
|Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 5:37 pm: || |
I think it is Plainly talking about the Ten Commandments in Ephesians 2.
Post Number: 174
|Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2017 - 7:44 pm: || |
I don't disagree with you ... just that it is not as obvious in Ephesians 2 as in 2 Cor. 3 "carved in letters on stone" or Hebrews 9:4 "tablets of the covenant".
Post Number: 826
|Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 7:35 am: || |
I also just cannot read Hebrews 8 any other way than describing the "covenant" of the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath as "obsolete" and "vanishing."
I've posted that same argument about 500 times on Facebook, and not one Adventist has even addressed it, let alone disputed it, let alone refuted it.
It is quite shocking to me, and indicates that they KNOW it is just as obvious as I think it is.
Quite frankly, I am horrified by this "success." This is a cult that KNOWS for certain that it is based on nothing but unbiblical lies. They KNOW this.
Post Number: 827
|Posted on Sunday, December 03, 2017 - 7:43 am: || |
Moreover, I believe that the New Testament repeatedly stresses that the Holy Spirit is the "law of the New Covenant." It is the HS that guides and directs us into moral behavior.
So I don't even agree that the Ten Commandments extends as a moral code to Christians. The Holy Spirit has plainly usurped that role.
- 49 days after the first Passover, Moses ascended Mt. Sinai to get the tablets of stone, on behalf of the 12 tribes of Israel. 3,000 people were killed that day, for idolatry. The "Ministry of Death engraved on Stone" began its lethal work not even 24 hours after it was made. European Jews celebrate Shauvot or the Feast of Weeks (Leviticus 23) as a marriage ceremony, and exclusive marriage covenant between God and Israel.
- 49 days after the Resurrection and the "last passover," the 12 Apostles ascended into the Upper Room, where the Holy Spirit descended. The HS is the "law of the New Covenant." 3,000 people were baptized that day and received Eternal Life. On the Day of Pentecost, the "Bride of Christ" (the Christian Church) was born.
Post Number: 175
|Posted on Monday, December 04, 2017 - 7:07 pm: || |
Flat-Earthers have posted over 500 times on facebook about their theories, and (in their opinion) nobody has refuted their arguments. Adventists are "tired" of the "old arguments" against their understanding of the Sabbath. They just don't bother engaging on something they have already settled in their minds.
We've got to be careful how we treat others ... I have run across Evangelical Christians who would believe the gospel very similarly to me, but they are stuck on cutting down other Christians that allow their ladies to wear slacks, or read from other versions than the KJV.
Frankly, I feel separated almost as far from these Evangelicals as I do from Adventists.
On the other end of the spectrum, there are "Evangelicals" who ordain leaders with "alternative" lifestyles ...
It's easy to unload on Adventists, but there are plenty of errors to go around, in fact, it is almost certain that some of my beliefs are in error. I'm glad there were patient Christians who stick around me when I had a Sabbatarian worldview, who would still treat me with respect.
Being right is of little value if we indiscriminately cut the ground out from everyone around us, alienating them, offending them, or pushing them further into their extremes (or even into unbelief).
I'm not claiming to be guiltless of such behavior ... recently I was invited to a private board of struggling young former SDAs and made a mess through being less than careful in the way I handled myself. They removed me from their board.
Let's treat people with a bit of mercy. It will produce better fruit than always being in attack mode.
Post Number: 15546
|Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2017 - 5:22 pm: || |
It's amazing to me how thoroughly the NT declares the old covenant obsolete and replaced by the covenant in Christ's blood enlivened by the Holy Spirit giving us new birth!
Thanks for the great discussion above!
Post Number: 134
|Posted on Monday, December 18, 2017 - 6:55 am: || |
Leifl, Thanks for taking the time to post your replies. I am grateful for it. Sorry it took me so long to respond.
It still amazes me that so many Christians, and in particular, Adventists, discard Israel from the equation. Like somehow the people that God gave the Law, and in Hebrew, have less understanding than SDAs. SMH.
I still believe God has something up His sleeve for Israel, and remain in awe that we were grafted in, as undeserving as we all are.
I still look for some clarification as to the phrase "contained in ordinances" means, but the rest of the information you provided was very helpful. Thank you again.
One of the things I really dislike about many of the SDAs I have been around is that attitude conveyed that they have it all figured out. It absolutely astounds me. I think we are going to get to the other side and figure out all of us only had a limited understanding of who God is and how great His grace is.
Res, for what it is worth, you are one of the brightest minds I have every spoken with or read. Such an absolutely incredible gift God has put inside of you and you have exercised and developed.
I have always felt like our strengths also have the potential to become our weaknesses.
As I have stood back and watched my wife pull my kids into Adventism and a culture that I do not agree with or really like, I, for a time, became quite angry. In some ways, I see myself in some of Res's responses.
Since I agree with the vast majority of Res's views (at least the stuff I can understand ), the pills are easier for me to swallow. I can understand how anyone who was pulled into or led down the SDA path would be angry once they get out, and I think if Res could mix his vast knowledge with a dose of "salt seasoning" many would be led out.
At any rate, I appreciate the wisdom and perspective I get here from you all. Thanks so much for the outlet. It has get kept me from going crazy.
Merry Christmas and God Bless!
Post Number: 4
|Posted on Wednesday, June 05, 2019 - 9:47 pm: || |
it has been a few years since a response was written here, so I trust that by now an answer has been found by you.
However I wanted to share my experience with understanding this, as I also had the same questions.
Now, I am not as astute as many of you bright minds here are, whom I have gathered SO MUCH from reading on this Forum.
Yet I wanted to just share what was helpful too me, as a way to "pay it forward" to someone else reading this in the future, while also inviting your critique of my thought process/understanding.
I had to begin with definitions. In order to come to an understanding I first wrote out the dictionary definitions of some key words:
The Law: the system of rules which a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and which it may enforce by the imposition of penalties.
Commands: give an authoritative order.
Regulations: a rule or directive made and maintained by an authority.
Ordinances:a piece of legislation enacted by a municipal authority.
SO when I re-read the text, I got a clearer picture based on my insertion of the definitions of the words, in place of the words themselves:
" having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is,
the[system of rules which a particular country or community recognizes as regulating the actions of its members and which it may enforce by the imposition of penalties.]...
of [(devine) authoritative order]...
contained in [legislation enacted by a municipal authority.]...,
so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace"
This process revealed to me what was going on here: a legally binding divinely inspired authoritative order between 2 parties, was in fact abolished once the pre agreed upon conditions had been satisfied. I believe that the " contained in ordinances" bit was Paul's way of making sure we understand fully what he was referring too.
Note: I haven't looked at what a concordance says regarding the hebrew/greek definitions of the words I defined. So hopefully I am not far off base.
Now while I was studying this out, I went back to Exodus, to read over the accounts of Moses receiving the commandments and the laws.
The events were a bit confusing as I couldn't tell how many times Moses went up and down the mountain, but I gathered this much, and would like some input on my categorisation:
The Commands were given in Exodus 20
The Laws were given in Exodus 21-23
The Ordinances were given in Exodus 25-31
Am I close?
I appreciate this platform immensely, hopefully my small contribution makes even a little bit of sense.