| Author | Message | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
Doug, we must have posted at the same time. Thank-you for your response. My sda preacher brother tried to convince me that we are saved by faith but then we are to become perfect like Christ. He says Christ was born with the Holy Spirit already in him but he took on human form, we are human and when we are born again we get the HS thus giving us the same make-up as Christ so we can become just like him. Perfect. Now isn't that what Satan wanted in the first place? To be like God/Jesus. Isn't that what started this mess? I don't agree that we become perfect, we are not God. | ||
| Another_Carol (Another_Carol) |
Pheeki, again we have come upon the same conclusion this happening to me quite some time ago when I was reading about the fall and noticed that The serpent tells Eve in Genesis 3:4 You shall surely not die. and then in 5 the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be as God, knowing the difference between good and evil, and blessing and calamity. and then in 2 Cor. 11:3 Paul warns But I am fearful lest that even as the serpent beguiled Eve by his cunning, so your minds may be corrupted and seduced from the wholehearted and sincere and pure devotion to Christ. I don't see that this says anything about being devoted to the Sabbath or diet or investigative judgement, but rather Christ and as Paul puts it another place I preach Christ crucified not that he observed the Sabbath but crucified. And what was He cucified for? I thank God that He sent Him to be sin for me that I might have the righteousness of Christ in me. I thank Him from the bottom of my heart and rest in it just as God rested from His work when He created also we must rest from our work as declared in Hebrews.4:11 Carol | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
In dealing with my SDA loved ones this is what I get on the topics you mentioned in your above post, Carol. 1st the Gennesis text where the serpnt tells Eve, "you will surely not die". That is the text they use to prove their understanding on the state of the dead. And then when it is pointed out to them that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except by way of Jesus I am told that the proof that we have the truth of Jesus is by our keeping the weekly Sabbath holy and as we are supposed to. This is because Jesus said, "I am Lord of he Sabbath" and a true follower of Jesus will show his/her willingness to follow Jesus by sacraficing doing his own pleasure own the Sabbath. As I understand it, a person can keep the Sabbath without being a Christian (Jews) but one cannot be a real Chritian without keeping the Sabbath. However, they will still think a Jew has a greater chance at eternal life because the Jew keeps the Sabbath than a Christian who does not keep the weekly 7th day holy as they think it should be observed. There are several N.T. passages tht tell what the Christians are to have/be. They say such things as love, honesty, humnility, if someone asks for your coat then give your shirt, too, etc. I'm sure you know these passages as well as the Beatitudes found in Matt. 5. Then there are the passages of what not to do. Such as idolaters, adultry, selfinshness, et. Never in any of these assages either in the to dos or the not to dos is the Sabbath even mentoned. I have asked numerous SDA yto explain to me how come if the weekly 7th day obsaervence is so important to God then how come it's not mentioned in thoe passages. Every time I have been told it dsen't need to be in those passages or anywhwere else in the N.T. because the weekly Sabbath is UNDERSTOOD, it is a GIVEN that it is to be observd. God didn't create us humans so stupid that He should have to tell us that, we ALREADY know that from reading the O.T. So there! Well, dumb me! I missed it. But, thankfully along comes the SDA's to clear that up. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Doug, I also owe a debt of thanks to Morris Venden. He came to Walla Walla for a Week of Prayer when I was a sophomore, and for the first time in my life I had permission to stop obsessing over sin. His preaching was the first glimpse I had into God's grace. As you said, however, he doesn't follow the beginnings of the teaching of grace to the logical NT conclusions about grace. Instead, he veers into perfectionism. The church officially gives lip service to being saved by grace. They err by adding to Jesus. It's not Jesus alone; it's Jesus plus (you fill in the blanksÖ the Sabbath, the food laws, soul sleep, EGW, etc.) In fact, I sense that most Adventist pastors can "get away" with preaching grace (not that they all do!) as long as that preaching doesn't veer into declaring that membership or Sabbath or tithe, etc., are non-essentials. Praise Him for pure grace! Colleen | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
You are correct Colleen. They preach grace to a certain point but anytime I have heard it preached, the Sabbath is ALWAYS thrown in at the end. So which is it? Saved by faith or saved by Sabbath???? Of course I know now how we are saved but I didn't then. My heart is heavy. My husband is really mad at me for coming to this website so often. He thinks I am slamming him on here for being an SDA. It is so intertwined into his being (that he is an SDA) that any insult to Ellen or the church is an insult to him and his family. I really don't mean to be insulting by participating in this website but never the less it is viewed as such. We went to a basketball game last night at the little SDA school my kids attend. They played the Nazarenes and the Nazarenes were getting angry because we supplied our own referees and they thought they were slanted in our favor and angry words were coming from their side and snide comments...I turned to my husband and said, "I am uncomfortable with this. I don't think Christians should be participating in stuff like this...it isn't just a friendly game. There has to be a winner and a loser and tempers flare..." Well, this was his chance...he said, "you know, Ellen siad that a long time ago. They just started participaing in sports about 10 years ago against her council." I said, "I think it is common sense that christians shouldn't participate in sports against each other. We didn't need Ellen to tell us that, and besides, she probably wasn't the only (or first one) to say that." (I was thinking of all the ideas she borrowed...) It bugs me that people think she is the originator of all ideas! AAAARRRGH. So what do you all think about competative sports among Christians? | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I had no idea that the SDA schools took part in inter-school sports events. On would think though with both schools being Christian then there would be more civil behavior towards each other. Frankly I like the idea of the SDA's finilly deciding to not keep their children so isolated and as far as the words flying, why not expose the kids at a young age to real people in real situtations? They can then learn that even Christians aren't perfect, they are prone to the same human failures as everyone else. When I went to Monterey Bay Academy we had games, but within our own schoolmates. The adults were so stupid that they had the nerve to tell the kids that we played those sports to lift up ourselves to Gods glory, to stregthen our bodies, etc. and that we were not to keep score. Well, you know good and wel, every student there had a mental scorepad. Some sports were not allowed but yet others (like roller skating) were actually encouraged. We could march in Pathfinders but we couldn't dance. To this day most of SDA'ism just doesn't make any sense to me. | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
true, it doesn't make any sense. I was not so much worried about the kids as I was the adults. I thought we might have a little fight on our hands. I know Christians aren't perfect but it still seems to me that if you are there representing a church you should control your tounge. I don't like confrontation so that is where I am coming from. But when the coach said as they lost the game to his kids, "That's ok, next time it will be on our turf and we won't have parents for referees!" I had to turn to him and tell him that the ref.'s were not parents, they were volunteers from the church. I think the whole situation sucked. I would have been mad too if we would have lost... I think those are all really worldly feelings...not that we won't have them but still... I know this sounds like EGWhiteish talk but I think it is common sense. I don't have a problem with sports but for SDA kids it kind of sets them up...some of them are pretty good at baseball or basketball and their parents spend a lot of money on lessons from former Texas Ranger coaches,etc. but because of the Sabbath, they have no hopes for having this as a career as adults. It's sad. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Pheeki, you are right about the fact that sports become a thorn in the side of Adventist kids. I had a keen interest in sports as a youth, but was never able to develop it because of the Friday/Sabbath thing. When I become an adult, I actually became fairly good at certain sports, and wonder how my life may have been different had I been able to fully participate at an earlier age. Most athletes will tell you that they learn tremendous lessons about life through sports--particularly if they have a good coach who can see beyond the score at the end of the game. I think that Adventis miss a tremendous teaching moment by attempting to refrain from inter-scholastic competition. Once again, it is the isolation thing. I heard of a school in California (I think) who had made it all the way to the finals in basketball, but the game was scheduled to be played on a Friday evening. If I remember correctly, they played up until a certain time before sunset, but then refused to play any longer (I think this had been pre-arranged). The other team, impressed by their convictions agreed to some kind of compromise (I don't know if it was a shootoff, or to accept the results at that point in the game as final), but to me, those kids (on both teams), learned more about acceptance of differences in a few minutes than they may ever learn in a lifetime. As I mentioned in another thread, we (Christians) often focus to much on surface behaviors rather than root causes. Instead of making silly rules like, "we'll only play basketball amonsgst ourselves and we won't keep score," why not do the more difficult thing of aying that we will not isolate ourselves from the world (and live in some unreal utopia), but we will demonstrate that God's love can shine through in all of life's circumstances--even in the heat of competition. Now, wouldn't that be a strange lesson. Just my humble (and uninspired) opinion | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
The school where I teach, an interdenominational Christian school, has a large and diverse competitive sports program. Some of their teams play in CFI leagues (do I have that right?). In fact, our teams regularly play against baseball, soccer, and basketball teams from the three local SDA academies. The longer I teach here, the more mixed my feelings about competitive sports become. While our coaches train all our teams to compete in a sportsmanlike and Christian way, there still seems to be something dichotomous about it, especially football. On the one hand, I'll never forget the first time I attended a football game in which an opposing team member was hurt on the field. As their coach, etc, rushed out to assist him, I began to cry when I saw our team kneeling together in the middle of the field, helmets in hands, praying for the downed opponent. On the other hand, there's something barbaric and anti-academic about these teenaged guys learning to "hit" and tackle. I probably wouldn't think much about it if I didn't read so many journal entries from my 14-15-yr.old students saying how much they love the hitting, the rushing, and how worth it the often serious injuries are for the pleasure of hitting and tackling. On the other hand, again, (I feel like Tevya in Fiddler on the Roof) guys are guys, and rough play is part of their growing up experience. (I often tell Richard and our two sons that they're just like bucks locking antlers in the woods, fighting for dominance! And they all three LOVE the power plays and tussling!) I guess if I were to summarize my evolving feelings about competitive sports at this moment, it would go something like this: I do not believe competition is necessarily evil, as many education classes have taught over the years. In fact, I believe it's a necessary and motivating fact of life. I do not believe competitive sports are necessarily evil, either. I think they become a problem when coaches, teams, and/or schools define their identity by winning or losing. People should be able to compete without violence, retaliation, or revengeful anger if they lose. If people (coaches and students) are secure in Christ and know who they are in Jesus, competition takes on a whole new dimension. The opponent is no longer an "enemy". For that matter, competition can be just as self-serving and destructive if it's in the field of music or academics. My kids have been in several music performance competitions. The issues of identity and resentment are just as pronounced in music as in basketball, for instance; they're just not as visible because the medium isn't so physically active. In short, I don't necessarily object to competitive sports. I do object to coaches with attitudes that desire revenge or who foster an "enemy" attitude. I don't think such attitudes need to be a part of competition. I really believe that in all areas of competition we have great opportunities to help each other grow in grace and in the need to be firmly identified with Jesus. So much for my not-quite-all-figured-out-yet opinions about competitive sports! Colleen | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Oops, I forgot to mention that the school in Claifornia was an Adventist academy, but you have probably figured that out by now. Doug | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Colleen, I agree completely. Competition in and of itself is not bad. It is a fact of life. Just as you mentioned that there is unhealthy competition in areas of music and academics, there is also competition everywhere. rather than shielding kids from the real word, we need to equip them to participate in it in a healthy manner. Doug | ||
| Seekr777 (Seekr777) |
Colleen, Colleen said: "For that matter, competition can be just as self-serving and destructive if it's in the field of music or academics." Actually I agree with you, but I haven't seen many students break a leg or get a concussion in a flute or piano competition recently.  Richard | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
If injuries are the problem, then there are many activities that we should not engage in (including driving cars--or using the internet). Bodies can be healed, what is not as easy to heal are the motional wounds caused by unhealthy competition. The key word is unhealthy. Doug | ||
| Jtree (Jtree) |
Question comes to mind... When these people are attending sporting events on Friday night, or Saturday mornings (such as tournaments ect)... ie..high school football/Basketball. Exodus 16:29, "...YOU ARE TO REMAIN IN YOUR PLACE..." Sorry Adventist Friend...this is not just about manna, now is it. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
As far as I know, Adventist schools which compete in inter-scholastic competition never do so on Friday nights or Saturdays. If events fall during those times, they do not participate. Most schools will schedule their games on other nights to accommodate the SDA schools. Furthermore, I'm not really aware of any sport besides football which routinely plays on Friday nights (with the exception of tournaments which are often on Saturdays). I don't know of any Adventist school that actually competes in the sport of football. I'm aware of basketball, baseball, and soccer in this area, and there could be others. SDA schools, however, do not have football programs. We did have a rather good varsity basketball player at our school (he graduated last year) who was an Adventist. He never played in Friday night games. He was a nice kid; he used to ask me, when I taught him, why I was no longer SDA. He was interested but unmoved. I know, though, that God had him at our school for a reason, and I also know God will bring things to his mind at the right time. God is so good to set us free from our misconceptions and deception! Colleen | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Jtree, Seventh-day Adventists have their own version of Sabbath-keeping. I have discovered that many Sabbatarian groups do that. These various Sabbatarian groups or churches have different offical and unofficial sabbathing rules. The fact is that all heat, air-conditioning, electricity, natural gas, etc. should be turned off on Sabbath according to the biblical model. The biblical directive to not light a fire on Sabbath,clearly reveals that the Sabbath was only meant to be observed in the Middle East. Obviously, the temperature levels of homes in Lapland and Palestine are of utmost contrast. How often should a Sabbatarian astronaut celebrate the Sabbath while orbiting the earth? (smile) Resting in the Him, Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
At one time, I lived in an area that had a high concentration of Jews. They would never think to use anything electrical (including lights), nor would they ride in a vehicle on the Sabbath. However, they would pay someone else to do it for them. Hmmm Doug | ||
| Susan_2 (Susan_2) |
I remember Senator Joe Liberman saying when he was campaigning to become VP under Al Gore that he always insisted his motel on Friday nights had to be walking distance to the temple because unless a true emergency should arise he would not use a vechile on the Sabbath. I remember lots of SDA's were all aflutter at the thought of having a Sabbath-keeper in the Whire House. Now I understand he's considering running for president. I guess some folks we all know will be really impressed with that! (You know,because of his Sabbath conviction.) | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Maybe we'll have a National Sabbath Law! LOL!!! | ||
| Pheeki (Pheeki) |
My husband decided we should talk about my beliefs last night. I wasn't bringing anything up to keep the peace in our home. He said that my leaving the SDA church was dividing our family. I asked him how? ( Since I still attend for their sake, and I have not asked that the kids be pulled out of school, though I would like that) and I think he meant it was dividing he and I. He asked me to please study Daniel and Revelation. I told him I wasn't ready for that and besides I had been through many revelation seminars. He accused me of not listening. I said, "you were right there, you saw I listened and then we even got rebaptized after one of them...I was listening!" besides I don't think other churches have those seminars and I don't want an SDA approach to them, I am well schooled in it! Then he started blaming my parents, he said the guilt and fear of my past came from them and not the church. I disagree, the SDA church caused them to use guilt on us as children b/c the gospel they preached was perfectionism. I told him that I didn't believe that the SDA had all the answers for the time of trouble like they think they do and I also told him, people who think they know exactly what will go down have no need to trust in Jesus. I also said that I didn't believe we would ever have to stand with out a mediator in the time of trouble, judgment...he said, "Christ was alone on the cross, he cried out why have you forsaken me." I didn't know what to say but now (this morning) it has become clear to me that WE ARE NOT CHRIST, we do not have to suffer for the sins of the world and it has nothing to do with us standing alone. That goes back to the notion that Christ was fully human, which the SDA believe. Even if Christ was going through the crucifixion alone, we are told that he will never forsake us. He concluded by saying he doesn't have time to study the Bible, which is almost true. he is in an anesthesia program and it takes all his time, but everyone can eek out a few minutes to study. I think he may start soon. I hope anyway. |
