| Author | Message | ||
| Lynn W |
CUTE?? I laughed out loud when I saw the statement, "I am a Seventh-Day Adventist, which means I go to church on Saturday... Here is a link that will tell you more about it." then saw the Mark Martin link. She we tell her?...Naah. Does "the dead know nothing" statement explain why Adventists don't get it? Ooops, just a little humor. I couldn't resist. | ||
| Geneva |
Lynn: The other day I was thinking about EGW and the biblical test for a prophet. Someone on the video says of her "In biblical times, she would have been stoned." Then I realized that at age 8 she really was! Oops, just a little more humor. I couldn't resist either. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Okay, you guys, enough already! By the way, we formers have got to quit buying into the "tests of a prophet" nonsense fabricated by the SDAs for the benefit of EGW's claim. These tests are not where the action is. The action is here: In what way does Ellen G. White's prophetic gift provide a primary witness to the Christ event? No more of this Jean Dixon stuff. Jesus is where it's at -- not hocus pocus! Jesus only, Jude | ||
| Lynn W |
Jude, I read your other post on this subject. Sounds interesting. Care to elaborate so we can follow? I've always prefered to simply point to the fact that she contradicts the Word and her own writings. The Adventist standard answer is, well, she was growing. Puleeze!! If she spoke the words of God EVERY time she taught or wrote, then it was God who was growing. I don't THINK so!! | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Lynn, I don't have time for a full answer to your question, but here's a start: 1. When we "go negative" we give people like Dr. Tazz more than enough reason to reject us and the gospel we ought to be representing and to continue to wander smugly in the darkness of SDA night. 2. The fact that EGW contradicts herself later in time has almost nothing to do with her being a false prophet, strange as that may seem. (I realize that this concept goes to the heart of my argument, which I don't have time to present fully here.) 3. The primary meaning of the word "prophet" as used in the Bible, both OT and NT, is not "forecaster" or "predictor of the future," and certainly not in the sense of any Jean Dixon, National Enquirer "mumbo jumbo" or "hocus pocus." Don't go there. The meaning is "spokesperson for God." Go there instead. 4. The list of so-called "tests of a prophet," which plays such an absolutely central role in any SDA "evangelistic" setting, is an SDA fabrication from start to finish. I once did a study of each item on the list and determined that not one of them holds water in terms of the biblical text or context on which they are supposedly based. (Someday I'll post a summary of my study.) 5. Therefore, showing how EGW doesn't pass these false, SDA-fabricated tests, only plays into the hands of SDA apologists who will argue you into an early living death. Save yourself. Don't go there either. 6. The only fruitful approach is to understand that there are only two kinds of prophets -- biblical and non-biblical. Biblical prophets can then be classified into two kinds, Old Testament and New Testament. OT prophets made prophecies which did involve some prediction. I don't deny that. But prediction of a highly specialized sort, that of preparing the way for Christ to come. "Everything else," as we used to say in the 70s, "is just toothpaste." NT prophets prophesied (spoke for God) in terms of their eye-witness to the Christ event. (Heb. 1:1.) And again, "Everything else is just toothpaste." As far as non-biblical prophets are concerned, YOU, Lynn, are just as much a prophet as EGW ever was. Or any other person living in new covenant, "post Christ event" times, for that matter, if that person is under the control of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the key. Remember when Peter in Acts quoted the OT prophet Joel as saying that your young men shall see visions and your old men shall dream dreams? Well, the early SDAs used that text as the main piller of support for their claim that EGW was the ONLY latter day prophet. And that obvious plurality was only a little problem. The BIG PROBLEM is this: Peter said that Joel's prophecy was being fulfilled right then, right at the time, right in their ears, when the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke in tongues. Meaning: The "last days" had already begun. They began with the presence of Christ on earth as Emanuel or "God with Us." Adventists cannot get it through their pretty little heads that the "last days" did not start on October 22, 1844. If you go by the Bible and the Bible only, they began with Emanuel. There are many many texts in support, including some from Jesus' own lips. But Peter's is sooooo telling that I love to spring it on SDAs and see how they react. They usually react as though you just hit them up side the head with a baseball bat, meaning they don't have a clue what you're talking about. And they're speechless to answer back. Then, when they do answer, it's usually nonsense sylables. And if there are non-SDAs in attendance (at a Bible study group, like the one I go to on Wednesday night, for example), these non-SDAs then SEE FOR THEMSELVES the speciousness of at least this one of the SDA "tests of a prophet." It's also interesting that the Bible, both Testaments, refer to many many non-biblical prophets, people whom the texts refer to as prophets (e.g., the "schools of the prophets"), but never a word of their prophesies is ever recorded or preserved in the Bible. Meaning: They're non-biblical prophets. Just as you and I are. Under the new covenant every person who is "in Christ" and who "has Christ in" him or her is a priest or priestess, every person is a prophet or prophetess, every person is a king or queen (we wear spiritual crowns, don't we? -- texts upon request). So, Lynn, being in Christ, you are a prophetess, you are a priestess, and you are a queen. You are not a forerunner of the Christ event as were the OT prophets. Nor are you an eyewitness to the Christ event as were the NT writers ("spokespersons for God" or prophets in the truest sense of the word). But we who are in Christ and who are under the Holy Spirit's control are prophets in the truest sense of the word. We speak for God! Both with our deeds and with our words. Now here's the kicker: So EGW was a prophet. No need to deny that. No need to try to disprove it. Instead, go to the heart of the matter: How did she represent Christ? How did she speak for God? This keeps the discussion on a very high and very profitable (no pun intended) level. You may show that she was a false prophet, but not on National Enquirer grounds. On these grounds: How does she speak for God. How does she witness to Christ? Is Christ less than God for her? If so, then she is a false prophet. Case closed. In other words, the only really good test of a prophet is how does that person "speak for God"? If you are "in Christ" and if you "have the Holy Spirit" within you, you will speak truth. Jesus said an evil tree cannot produce good fruit, and a good tree cannot produce evil fruit. Jesus also said, "I am the way, the truth and the life." And He said, "You search the Scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life, but they are they that testify of Me. Yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life." Meaning: Even the Bible is not the ultimate Word of God. That's what the Jews, whom Jesus contradicted in this very text, thought and said. Jesus Christ contraticted them by claiming Himself to be the the only true Word of God -- made flesh -- the Bible is only the prophetic witness to this Word who is Christ Jesus. But that's another study. EGW must face the same test. We should judge her by this criterion and by no other. We should "go here" only and resist the temptation to go anywhere else, and most certainly not to National Enquirer criteria for determining prophetic status. "Going here" only also safeguards us from getting into "mud fights in the gutter." Read Dr. Tazz's latest post for a current example of such a mud fight. Well, here I am again, going on far longer than I intended. Sigh. Nonetheless, grace and peace to you, Lynn, prophetess, priestess (minister ordained of the Holy Spirit), and queen in the nobility of Christ who is King of kings and of queens, Jude | ||
| Plain Patti |
In light of the current discussion, I was wondering what y'all--oops, my secret is out! Yes, I confess I am a Texan!--thought of this article. DEAD PROPHETS SOCIETY In nineteenth century America, there arose many professed prophets, many of them gathering followers and incorporating into a new and distinct Christian body, often making the claim that they were God's last true church on this earth. On another forum the question was raised, "Is there a need for prophets after the Christ event?" In pondering this, the thought came to me, Just what is the meaning of prophecy in the New Testament? To explore this question, it would behoove us to have a common terminology. Easton's Bible Dictionary defines prophecy thusly: "The great prediction which runs like a golden thread through the whole contents of the Old Testament is that regarding the coming and work of the Messiah; and the great use of prophecy was to perpetuate faith in his coming, and to prepare the world for that event.... "But the great body of Old Testament prophecy relates directly to the advent of the Messiah, beginning with Gen. 3:15, the first great promise, and extending in ever-increasing fulness and clearness all through to the very close of the canon. The Messianic prophecies are too numerous to be quoted. 'To him gave all the prophets witness.'" Jesus Himself supports this definition in these verses: John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you believe they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me! 5:40 Yet you refuse to come to me so that I can give you this eternal life. John 5:45 Yet it is not I who will accuse you of this before the Father. Moses will accuse you! Yes, Moses, on whom you set your hopes. 5:46 But if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me because he wrote about me. Matthew 13:13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 13:14 "And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; and you will keep on seeing, but you will not perceive.'" This last Scripture was the first reference that popped up in my search. Here Jesus is speaking of the prophecy of Isaiah of which He, Jesus, was the fulfillment. Shortly after in the same chapter, there is this use of the word prophet: Matthew 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable, 13:35 so that what was spoken through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the world." Again, Jesus is making the claim that He is the fulfillment of the words of the Old Testament prophets. According to the definition and these texts, prophecy in the Old Testament was overwhelming used to foretell the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But what about in the New Testament? Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." This text, unfortunately, has been skewed by some denomination to mean something else, something almost blasphemous. They have been used to refer to a single human being or entity. But what is the true meaning? The words are right there, right in front of your eyes and need very little spin or interpretation. "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." What is the spirit of prophecy? Testifying of Jesus. I believe that, just as the overwhelming amount of OT prophecy was of Jesus Christ, that the New Testament prophet is one who testifies of Jesus. And who inspires this testimony? The Holy Spirit of course. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me, John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 16:10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; 16:11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 16:14 "He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. 16:15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you. 16:16 "A little while, and you will no longer behold Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me." What is the thrust of the role of the Holy Spirit on this earth? Again, to testify of Jesus. Is it possible that to prophesy, in the New Testament, was (I hate to use the word, "only," or "merely" here, yet a common attitude among many Christian groups is that salvation by the grace of Jesus Christ is merely the milk of the Gospel.) simply to testify of Jesus? To tell of His great saving act? Let's examine the other passages: Romans 12:4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 12:6 And since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let each exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 12:7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; 12:8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. This passage most assuredly fits the definition. "if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith" Since faith is the tool by which we reach out for the great salvation of Christ in the Gospel, then this definition fits like a glove. How about some more? Acts 2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 2:17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all MANKIND; And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams; 2:18 Even upon My bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit And they shall prophesy. So this was a fulfillment of prophecy itself, but please notice just what the "sons and daughters" were prophesying on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 2:23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 2:24 "And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. Acts 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 2:33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 2:34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, 2:35 Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet." ' 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-- this Jesus whom you crucified." Their prophecy was a testimony of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, risen and exalted. So if we are to take the preceding definition of New Testament prophecy as being accurate, then I suppose we could call any of the nineteenth century charismatic leaders prophets when they testify of Jesus. Many denominations that sprang up in the nineteenth century, especially those that were spun off of the Millerite movement, have a sensationalist approach to many things. They tended to be greatly impressed by sensationalist manifestations, such as visions, ecstatic utterings, supernaturally attributed feats, than biblically solid theology. In many cases, they were so enamored by the supposedly supernatural events manifest by their charismatic leadres and pointed to these as signs of a prophet, that they overlooked the single most important aspect of the gift of prophecy, and that is to testify of Jesus. Of course, this is not very attention-getting. It is not flashy or glamourous, and does not bring in the big bucks. Often people who are hooked on sensationalism become weary with the constant reiteration of the merits of Christ. It makes one wonder what they will do in heaven, because the saints throughout all eternity will sing the song of Lamb. Jesus warned against sensationalism and looking for supernatural signs while He was here on earth: John 4:48 Jesus therefore said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe." Is it possible that this is the attitude of those who cling tenaciously to their nineteenth century prophet, even when this prophet contradicts the Gospel of salvation by grace through faith alone? One last point about prophecy. Many of these denominations seem to regard prophecy as a static gift--a gift that is given to a single person once a dispensation. This is totally contrary to the practical usage of the word "prophecy" in the New Testament: Romans 12:6 And since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let each exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; According to this text, the gift of prophecy, just like the gifts of teaching, diligence, mercy, exhortation and generosity, is a dynamic gift that the Holy Spirit bestows upon many believers at any time in the history of the world. There is no way one could read into this text that there was to be a single last great prophet in the 19th century. Paul reiterates this them in I Corinthians: 1Cor. 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. And then there is this interesting verse: 1Cor. 14:22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers, but to those who believe. In summary, the New Testament usage of the word "prophecy" is not the same as it is generally regarded in some of the nineteenth-century denominations based upon a single charismatic leader. The authors of the New Testament used the word prophecy as a dynamic gift to the believers in the church to testify of Jesus and to edify the church. Many Christians see the gift of prophecy as mainly a gift of prognistication, fulfilled entirely in their individual chosen prophet and all of his/her written words. So are these charismatic leaders that arose a century or more ago true prophets of God? My most generous answer would be that they were when they were testifying of Jesus. However, when they were or adding new or unique identifying doctrine to the Word of God, acting in judgment, or promoting error--well, that is for God to determine. Are these denominations WRONG in saying that their charismatic leader was a prophet? I think that it is not so much that they are wrong in saying that they prophesied (if one chooses to ignore the error, of course); rather, they are wrong in denying that role to anyone else in history since John. And they are wrong in promoting that they are THE true church because of their chosen charismatic leader. God's true remnant will have the dynamic, living gift of prophecy, not merely a dead prophet. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Patti, you are a true prophet. BTW, I'm a Texan too. -Jude |
