| Author | Message | ||
| Lorinc |
Adding to George's point, and circling back to my original question of, "how can a neo-calvinistic view of God be a *comfort* to you?" : Wow; you think the 1844 Investigative Judgment is an assurance-stealing doctrine! How about predestination ??!!!!! How do I know if I'm one of the "elect" ? Suppose I love Christ and accept His provision for my salvation -- only to find He never made any such provision? To find he didn't really die to save the "whole world", but only those he *predestined* to be on the winning team? I could appear before the Great White Throne, trusting in His grace for my salvation, and have Him say, "Sorry, the 'fix was in' from before the foundation of the world -- you never had a chance!" I ask again, How does this view of God/scripture bring the comfort and assurance that we all agree Adventism lacked? Still not antagonistic, still looking for understanding, but still bewildered... :-) Lorin | ||
| George |
It has been posted, "Why should anyone want to strive for salvation if God is up there indiscrimanently picking some to be evil?" Precisely! Whoever posted this has "seen with blinding sight" that there NO POINT in striving for salvation! You either have it or you don't. Grace! Grace! God's grace! Grace that is greater than all our sin! Max of the Cross When I posted this i knew someone would think I ment "working" for salvation, but was to tired to think of another way to say it. Reading, pondering and talking about all this to see If we even want to believe, is the "striving for salvation" I was talking about. It is something that has to be done if we are to make an honest free choice. If we believe in predestionation as you point it out, we have no choice in where we go or what we believe. If it is as Loneviking has stated, if I understand ihim right, then it was predestined there would be a path to take to salvation if we to so choose. (Christs death, Belief etc.) If WE are prededtioned, then it is like a war game in which one side is predestioned to be the good guys and the other to be bad. (no choice) If it is this way we are just an inert piece in a big chess game just sitting there till someone makes up THEIR mind what they want ot do with us. If thisis the way it is, why study, it wont make any difference any way. George----Not Whoever | ||
| George |
Lorin, I couldn't have said it better. George | ||
| Max |
Hey, my friends! I have to say again -- I'm not "the answer man." I strive to be "the rain man." Rain is a good thing. When it's raining outside some people say, "It's nasty out." I never do -- unless its too much, a kind of Noah's rain -- but I say, rather, "There goes God again!" Read Shereen's post about the man who kept asking for God to speak to him. Whenever he asked, God ALWAYS answered. But in His own way -- thunder, a butterfly, etc. But the man ASSUMED God had to answer in the way he expected. He, a human being who can't even begin to understand God. A man who was like the clay pot taking issue with the Potter! Big mistake. The biggest. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
I want to revisit Shereen's post: WATCH AND LISTEN CAREFULLY The man whispered, "God, speak to me," and a MEADOWLARK sang. But the man did not hear. So the man yelled, "God, speak to me!" And the THUNDER rolled across the sky. But the man did not listen. The man looked around and said, "God, let me see You." And a STAR shined brightly. But the man did not notice. And the man shouted, "God, show me a miracle!" And a LIFE was born. But the man did not know. So the man cried out in despair, "Touch me, God, and let me know You are here!" Whereupon God reached down and touched the man. But the man brushed the BUTTERFLY away and walked on. Comments Shereen, the author (I assume) of this most exquisite poem, "Don't miss out on a blessing because it isn't packaged the way that you expect." What does this most beautiful poetic parable have to do with the no less beautiful biblical teaching of predestination? Just this: It's not about God denying us our freedom of choice. It's about OUR thinking that God has to dance to our tune. It's about OUR brushing away God's butterfly and walking away from Him. It's about our thinking that WE have a choice in accepting or rejecting His thoughts and His ways that are as high above ours as the heavens are above the earth. It's about our refusal to listen rather than prayerfully and humbly asking God (Jesus Christ) what HE means. It's about our submission to God rather than his submission to us. In short, predestination is a control issue. If we cannot deal with God's First Lesson, how can we presume to deal with his Second? Please read Shereen again. Max of the Cross | ||
| Shereen |
Max, Here is another beautiful one. I have forwarded it to two ppl but thought you might like it too and since I don't know your email I have to post it here for you. Beautiful Prayer I asked God to take away my pain. God said, No. It is not for me to take away, but for you to give it up. I asked God to make my handicapped child whole. God said, No. Her spirit was whole, her body was only temporary. I asked God to grant me patience. God said, No. Patience is a by-product of tribulations; it isn't granted, it is learned. I asked God to give me happiness. God said, No. I give you blessings. Happiness is up to you. I asked God to spare me pain. God said, No. Suffering draws you apart from worldly cares and brings you closer to me. I asked God to make my spirit grow. God said, No. You must grow on your own, but I will prune you to make you fruitful. I asked for all things that I might enjoy life. God said, No. I will give you life so that you may enjoy all things. I ask God to help me LOVE others, as much as he loves me. God said...Ahhhh, finally you have the idea. | ||
| Max |
Loneviking, Love that moniker! Ever read that Viking comic strip in the Sunday color funny papers when you were a kid? Can't remember the name of the strip ("Val the Viking"? "Viking Val"? "Lone Viking"?), but anyway the dude's name was Val and his dudette's name was Aleta, a Viking princess. But they could never get together 'cause he was always off pickin' off Picts or stormin' Hadrian's wall or bustin' Byzantium heads. I had to sneak to read, though, 'cause my SDA parents thought the devil drew the Sunday funnies. And never mind that they disguised themselves (Dad was a pastor) and went to see "Gone With the Wind" in a drive-in movie din of teen-makeout iniquity. Anyway, I discurse, diverge, divert, something.... ^^God stands outside of time and history / knows the end from the beginning and the expression here [predestination] is a reflection of that.^^ Not that I have any problem with God standing "outside of time and history" and knowing " the end from the beginning." Not as long as we are clear that that definition (as is ALL human theology) is nothing more than our human mumbo-jumbo under- standing of a divine mystery that is as high above our thoughts and ways as the heavens are high above the earth. Just as long as we are clear that Scripture is always about "divine spiritual reality" (DSR) , whereas our human thoughts always tend toward "human world view" (HWV), then I have no issue to take with God being outside of our particular spacetime (universe). But, my friend, trying (always vainly) to force DSR into a HWV mold always leads us astray. The Middle Ages were stagnant and profoundly unspiritual because the people living then tried to stuff DSR into the ptolemaic HWV mold. Then Luther and Calvin came along and revived the scriptural teaching of divine predestination and sovereignty (the two words are only two sides of the same coin) and -- voila! -- the Reformation swept Europe like a forest fire. Just as Christianity swept the Roman empire when that great arsonist named Paul started fires in Colossae, Ephesus, Pergamum, Troas, Philippi, Athens, Nicopolis,Brundisium, Neapolis, Rome, Terraco, Toletum, Corinth, Thessalonica, Galatia, Ephesus, and I don't know where all else. Now we modernists (and post-modernists) have the Copernican HWV. And -- just like the Polemaic Middle-Agers -- we're trying to stuff the eternal DSR into our pathetic Copernican HWV. Lots of luck! Ever try to stuff the Sierra Nevada into a cookie cutter mold? Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Prince Valiant! PRINCE VALIANT! When she was still learning to talk, my baby daughter Jana overheard a parental conversation not meant for her little ears. Later, she blurted out "the awful words." Then, while her parents dealt with their suddenly serious red faces, she gleefully blurted out . . . "JANA 'MEMBERED!" Just so, Max 'membered! So much for senior moments! Max of the cross | ||
| Max |
Two "seat of the pants" definitions to help clarify this thread: Ptolemaic world view: The sun, planets and all the stars in the sky revolve (orbit) around the earth, which is the center of the univers. Copernical world view: The earth revolves around the sun and is only an infinitesimal, almost undetectable atomic speck lost in the vastness of space. I'm trying to say that scriptural "divine spiritual reality" is bigger than either of these two world views and cannot be "stuffed" into either one of them. And I don't care how smart your cosmologists and theoretical physicists are. In fact, the smartest ones (such as Einstein, rest his soul; and Hawking), the ones closest to the heart of our particular (Copernican) world view, don't make that comon "stuffing mistake." They know better. | ||
| Max |
Thanks, Shereen, The second poem you sent was just as truthful as the first. May God bless you even more for sharing. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Friend Lorin, ^^Suppose I love Christ and accept His provision for my salvation -- only to find He never made any such provision?^^ How could this be possible? If you love Christ and accept his salvation then he HAS made the provision. In my opinion, this is God's First Lesson. | ||
| Max |
Lorin, ^^How do I know if I'm one of the "elect"?^^ If you believe, you are. If you don't believe, you're not. | ||
| Max |
Lorin again, ^^You think the 1844 Investigative Judgment is an assurance-stealing doctrine! How about predestination?" Predestination is pure grace, whereas the 1844 Investigative Judgment doctrine is grace plus works. Thus, predestination is pure assurance of salvation, whereas IJ wrests it away and restores works, including the work of "free choice falsely so called." In my opinion at least, the HUMAN idea of "free choice" is as much a HUMAN work as anything the Pharisees or SDAs ever tried. Question: When on the road to Damascus to murder more Christians, did Paul have free choice? Answer: No. He was as much a slave to his Pharisaical addiction as any alcoholic today. Paul only BECAME free when Jesus Christ zapped him, knocked him down on the road, and blinded him with divine laser light. Thus, freedom of choice was not Paul's. Paul RECEIVED it when Christ gave it to him. For freedom is as much a gift of God as is salvation itself and is a part of free grace itself. Then, in Paul's newly found free condition, he was -- at God's discretion -- finally able to freely choose Christ, believe, and become a Christian. To become, as he put it, "a slave of Christ," in the sense that an animal -- such as a dog or a horse -- is devoted to his master. For Paul, slavery to Christ = devotion to Christ, and not slavery as we think of it from the history of American antebellum times. Thus, "For freedom hath he made us free." Thus, "If ye are free in Christ, ye are free indeed." NO ONE OUTSIDE OF CHRIST IS FREE! Therefore, if you are out of Christ and unfree, then how can you choose him? You can't. No one outside of Christ can choose salvation. This is a part, a small part, of what predestination means. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Ps: Paul was able to "see with blinding sight" (Dylan Thomas) not because he took steps to Christ, but because Christ took steps to him. EGW wrote a took titled "Steps to Christ." I'm thinking of writing a book titled, "There Are No Steps to Christ." | ||
| Valm |
Can I preorder an autographed copy? Valerie | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Proorizo=Predestinate 7 instances of this word in Bible. 1-To predetermine, decide beforehand 2-NT of God decreeing from eternity 3-To foreordain, appoint beforehand Acts 4:28 (determine beforehand) Romans 8:29,30 (twice in vs 29) 1 Corinthians 2:7 (ordained) Ephesians 1:5,11 God Bless All, Denise | ||
| George |
Max, No one is trying to put a square peg in a round hole here. At least I'm not. I am not questioning Gods way of doing things. I am not asking why the Potter made me the way He did any more that I did when I wanted to know the difference between grace and works. Shereens poem is wonderfull but it does not apply to the question. If we can't question what predestionation meens then we can't question what grace meens eather. You are right,Paul didn't have a choice when he was killing christians because that is all he knew. But when God pulled him up short and said HAY QUIT THAT, he then had a choice, a free choice, follow God or go back to killing christians. Well we all know what he chose. Knowing the end from the beginning does not meen that you made it happen that way, it meens that you know which way it happened. I find the idea that some one, that ANYONE is deciding what I will do or not do repulsive. Now if anyone wants to lay out a plan for me that I can study, so I decide if I want to use it, to him I will be greatful. As I said tis morning, there seems to be two ways we can look at predestionation, one is that God picked where we will go and the other is tht He picked a way for us to get there. One was shows that we as humans can make good choices (which I think this whole experiment is all about) and the other shows that God can choose for us, where we will go(in which case there is no experiment or reason for anything in the Bible as all creation already knows that God can do as He wants.) What do you think---George | ||
| Valm |
Dear Max, Only card carrying member of the AARP are allowed to have senior moments. Valerie Everyone: Aren't we ALL predestined for God's gift of grace? It is just a matter if we choose God's destiny for us or our own. No offense intended but aren't we getting overly cerbral on this whole matter. With regaurds to those atrocities of life..... We will understand it better by and by. All things work for good to them that LOVE GOD. Valerie | ||
| Loneviking |
Well said George, that's my point exactly---we have to figure out what 'predestination' means before we study the ramifications. I've always been disturbed by the assertion that God is always busy micromanaging the affairs of each individual. Sure, there are miracles in the Bible that happened occasionally, but that's not the way God usually works, and to assert otherwise plays into the hands of the agnostics/athiests. I say that because of a remark a friend in (non SDA) college said: "The story of the flood is an example that God is a lousy gambler--He knew the people would screw up and yet He let them do it! And then He gets Pi**ed as H$ll and destroys them!" This is, IMHO, the big problem with predestination--God knows; God makes sure; and humans suffer.....if that's the truth, I'm for 'tune in, turn on and turn out!' | ||
| George |
Valerie, No I don't think we are getting overly cerbral about this. If I am to believe in predestination I want to know exactly what I am believing in. The same goes for faith, works, salvatiion (we used to believe that we had to work our way there) belief, etc. If I don't know what I am believing in I might believe a lie. Right? To me the idea that God picks who will go to heaven does not fit in with all the other things in the Bible. But, the idea that He picked a way for us to get there does. For two people to talk about something they first decide what the words are saying, if they don't, how will they ever get anywhere. That is one reason I am so picky. The other is, if God chooses for me where I will go then I will have to rethink everything I know about God. It just doesn't fit. Loneviking, I agree with the first paragragh of your post. The rest.......? George |
