| Author | Message | ||
| Sherry2 |
I couldn't find a thread on hell, so I'm starting one here. Now I've been doing some studying back and forth. Seems there are other churches that belive in annilationism too. My question that is the hardest for me to resolve on the "hell" issue is this. If Jesus paid for our sins, and I deserve to burn in hell eternal, wouldn't Jesus have had to burn in hell eternal? | ||
| Violet |
OOOOH, I never thought of it like that you mean that just the seperation from the Father even for a moment was hell to Jesus. | ||
| Lori |
Sherry, are saying that if Christ really was going to pay "our" penalty for sin (which would be "unending death") then he himself would have to remain in that state of "unending death"? That he would literally have to stay dead in order to really be paying "our penalty"? That's a good question. You are going to find the answer to this question is dependent on understanding the angelic conflict and the hypostatic union of Jesus Christ. I'll try to pull some things together and post them in the next couple of days. | ||
| Lori |
Sherry, I'm not exactly sure what you are asking---are you asking why Christ didn't burn eternally or are you asking if hell is eternal? | ||
| Sherry2 |
I'm asking why Christ didn't burn eternally...yep. Thanks...Could be an interesting study! | ||
| Chyna |
letsee: Wages of sin is death. Death is defined as separation from God. Those that aren't saved will experience eternal separation from God. Jesus paid for all our sins by dying on the cross. For the first time Jesus experienced separation from God, "My God, my God why has thou forsaken Me?" During the time that Jesus had died, He conquered the gates of hell, "Death, where is thy victory?" something "Where is thy sting?" something akin to those lines. I will keep thinking on this matter. Sherry, I have a webpage specifically addressing hell as annihilation here is Hoekema talking about annihilation in a very intelligent way: http://www.geocities.com/donotloseyourfaith/annihi.htm here is what else my webpage says: soul sleep was taken from passages in the OT where they didn't really know what happened after death. unlike the NT where they had Jesus to tell them about things. secondly, to say that Jesus Christ, Son of God used bad theology just to prove a point in Lazarus & the Rich Man is preposterous! Jesus Christ clearly states that there is a hell, and describes what it is like there. so shot down the 'ole Adventist argument there that Lazarus and the rich man don't exist etc. thirdly it says: Matthew 25:46 "They will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life" if you believe as a Christian you are going into eternal life, as in as long as eternity, you have to agree that the same word in greek is equal for punishment, ainos, I believe is what it is, is used in both cases. fourthly: Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. people think destroy in that verse means annihilate, but by analyzing the greek and a parallel passage we see ... Luke 12:4-5 "I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no * more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him! Luke 4:34 "Let us alone ! What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth ? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are--the Holy One of God !" and the parallel passage to Luke: Mt 8:29 And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time ?" in terms of biblical passages that directly contradict soul-sleep: we do know that souls remember things because in Revelations 6:9-10, the souls of the martyrs are crying out to God for vengeance and this is before the second coming. or something, hm. anyway, they sure seem like they do remember. also, we know that Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, these saints are the ones that are already with Him in heaven. anyway, there is a soul and not soul sleep, otherwise Paul would not have yearned so deeply to be with God 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. hope some of this helps. | ||
| Chyna |
actually, in the passages about hell, the flames and lake of fire etc. are supposed to describe how we'll feel in hell, the torment felt in hell, the anguish at the separation from all that is Good, all that is Love, because of the separation from God. | ||
| Chyna |
here is a thought Sherry: when the Jewish people wanted to atone for sin they needed blood, of course it was never enough, but for every sin they need to sacrifice something. so Jesus Christ is that lamb for our sins. One finite punishment. One death to encompass the penalty for all our sins. ok, this might be some weird thinking here but, is the bull/lamb/dove at fault here? no! it just bore our sins to its death for our purity. now if the bull/lamb/dove has the ability to conquer death does that invalidate the cleansing by its death? I don't think so. ok, i'm still thinking, hopefully Lori will have more things to say. I've never thought of it that way Sherry. Here's another thought. This is why I have never contemplated your question before. God is Just, and therefore if Christ can pay for all the sins of the entire world, past, present, and future by dying on the Cross that means that God is satisfied. Your question seems to be were our sins really paid in full for if Jesus Christ didn't stay in hell. All I can reply is that truly our sins were paid in full for, and I can't imagine Christianity without a Risen Savior :). | ||
| Chuckiej |
Hi Sherry, Are you reading my mind or something? :-) Your question is one that I used to wonder about too. There's an answer on the same page I linked you to on the other thread. This one is REALLY, REALLY long, but I think it's worth your while. If you don't feel like reading through all of it, he does a good job of summarizing his conclusions at the end. http://www.christian-thinktank.com/2littlepain.html There's also a short item on whether Jesus actually went to hell on his page: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qhell.html. NOTE: This is NOT an SDA site. The author is not an annihilationist nor does he believe in conditional immortality (soul-sleep). Chuck | ||
| Sherry2 |
Thank you for your input, folks. Again, Chuck, you come through with that Christian Think Tank. He's got some indepth stuff to look at, doesn't he? Chyna, as a former SDA, I'm still struggling with hell being eternal, or hell being everlasting destruction. I see very good cases for both. And I think the knowledge of hell eternal certainly stirs more of a desire in my heart to see others saved, then annilationism does. But the thing that didn't make sense to me was if I would be in hell eternally if I wasn't born again, why didn't Christ have to dwell there forevermore in order to truly pay the penalty of mankind. It's not an argumentative question. It's a "I don't understand this part of it, Lord. Please help me understand." question. This Think Tank Chuck refered me to, seems to help deal with that question. I need to read it indepth some more later today. Looking forward to your input too Lori. Thank you! :) Friends, Sherry | ||
| Chuckiej |
You're welcome Sherry! The Tank really is a great site. If you've looked around it, you've probably noticed the "Hallway of Questions" section. I think it addresses just about every issue I've had trouble understanding. He answers questions submitted by readers, so it's also good to see I'm not the only one wondering about these things. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Here's how I look at this question, Sherry. Jesus' death paid for our sins in that he was human--the curse of sin required that a human die because humanity sinned. He also paid for our sin because he was God, and only God could take responsibility for ALL of us. One human dying couldn't pay for all humanity, just for himself. But Jesus, the God/man, was a singularity; only He could fulfill the requirement that humanity die, and only he could take responsibility for all of humanity. But that's just the death part. If Jesus had not died the death of separation from God, he wouldn't have endured the curse of sin. If he hadn't died the death of separation, we couldn't have been forgiven. But if he hadn't risen from the dead, we coudln't have, either. Had Jesus remained dead, we would also have remained dead. Forgiven, but dead. It was Jesus' resurrection that gave us eternal life. He was the firstfruits of them that sleep. Jesus was truly a singularity. Romans tells us that the Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead is the same Spirit that brings life to our MORTAL bodies. That Spirit is the Spirit that indwells us and transforms us into his image. Which brings me to the next point. If Jesus had not ascended to his father and sat at his right hand (see Hebrews 10), his work complete, he could not have sent us the Holy Spirit. He told his disciples in John that if he did not go, he could not send the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what gives us the new birth. Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension all were necessary for our salvation. If he hadn't died, the problem with sin would never have been solved. If Jesus hadn't died, the rift in the universe that kept humanity separated from God would have continued unsolved. Jesus' blood opened a new and living way to the Father. His death provided for our forgiveness. Jesus' resurrection, the miracle of coming back to life from the death of separation from the Father, is the miracle that ensures us of eternal life. If Jesus hadn't risen from the dead, we could not have come to life spiritually, and our bodies could not have been resurrected. He resurrection provided for our eternal life. Jesus' ascension made it possible for us to be reborn by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit in us is what puts Christ in us. The Holy Spirit in us is what makes us new creations. The Holy Spirit is what seals us with the reality of our salvation. He reveals the reality of Christ, and he makes us more and more like Christ as we learn to submit all of ourselves and all of our lives to him. The Holy Spirit in us is what creates the miraculous unity of the church. We become one in Chirst. We are united in a way more powerful than any other bond on earth can unite us. When the Holy Spirit is part of our marriages and friendships and parent-child relationships, they are transformed. Those relationships become places where the Spirit of God dwells and through which he glorifies himself. If Jesus had been merely a man he would have had to stay dead for eternity. That, in fact, is what Satan hoped for. But Jesus was God, and his Spirit could not stay dead. He broke the bonds of death. Death, the curse of sin, can no longer threaten us. Jesus has escaped it. He has destroyed its power for all of us who accept him and receive his Spirit of life in us. Those who refuse to accept him will not receive the Spirit of life. They will die eternally because they rejected the Lord of resurrection and life. Their punishment will equal in intensity the magnitude of what they rejected: eternity in relationship with God. I praise Jesus for his sacrifice and for his deity and his love that broke the power of sin and death and granted us eternal life and love! Colleen | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
I have enjoyed reading this thread and was amazed that no one has added to it in over two years. Eternal hell is very hard to accept for many because they don't see it as being any person's JUST reward but tend to think of it as one big melting pot for each and every sin combined and therefore, think of it as being cruel and unjust and totally out of character for a loving God to MAKE someone suffer there forever, but since God is a just God and gives his rewards to the righteous accordingly, then it seems only fair that God would be just in his eternal punishment to those who must go to hell as well. I believe that it is important to remember too that it isn't how big or how little a person's sin is but rather their REFUSAL to accept the atoning blood of Jesus that covers ALL sins that takes them to the place called hell, and hell is a literal place that was originally prepared for the devil and his angels and when my Bible says that the smoke of their TORMENTS ascends upward and that they have NO REST day or night for ever and ever, then just how much plainer can the Bible say it folks, amen!!! God says that his grace is SUFFICIENT and our faith in believing this gospel of grace is what gives us entrance to the heavenlies and therefore, it is the refusal of this free gift that causes a person to be cast into hell. There will also be millions of people in the last days that will be so wicked that God will give them up to a "reprobate mind". There is a verse that speaks of the servant being beaten with many stripes and the servant beaten with a few stripes and is a type of analogy which would indicate levels of pain and suffering that the lost soul will have to endure forever, and if God says that he winks at ignorance, then doesn't it stand to reason that he is 'just' in his punishment? The key thing to remember is that the Holy Spirit has manifested himself to ALL creation and it is that stubborn and rebellious heart that refuses to submit to his will that will spend eternity in outer darkness separated from the light of the word, Jesus. It is also true that the SDAs are not the only ones that teach the anniliation theory, the Jehovah's Witnesses do the same thing and others do too which is why I started the thread on unity which I will be getting into later for a study concerning these different views that are contrary to God's word. I got a tract left in my door a few months ago from the JWs that began with this truly ridiculous statement: imagine a dear loved one lying on a griddle and imagine that person sizzling as he/she lies there helpless while a wicked God gazes down from heaven with a sneer across his face as he watches this person fry for ever and ever in endless torments. The tract went on to say that this was HOW we Baptists and other "so-called" religious groups were "painting" our merciful Father of glory. As I read that tract, I got angry at the way that they presented all the Christians that actually read their Bible with the discerning of the Holy Spirit, and that actually had eternal hell revealed to them, painted to be teachers of a false doctrine that renders Jehovah as a vengeful and heartless taskmaster sitting on his throne while casting people into hell fire. Although the Bible is very plain in its teachings on the subject of hell, and like someone pointed out, the word eternal is the same in both cases when the word speaks of both heaven and hell; then that is why I can't understand why some would embrace the teaching of an everlasting heaven but think God mean if viewed as one who cast a soul into an everlasting, eternal hell. I even had someone argue that it wouldn't be fair for Cain to burn for 6000 years before the mass murderers of our day joined them and only had to burn for a little while, and I pointed out that eternity is not a concept for the finite mind of man to ponder over in the first place, eternity is not measured in minutes, hours, days, or years. God's thoughts and ways are so far above us that we can't even begin to comprehend what it is all about. For my SDA sister to simply shrug off my suggestion of eternal hell because she says that neither of us PLANS to go there is foolishness and somewhat presumptuous seeing as how I don't believe that anyone really plans to go there, and if they do plan it then I am sure that it is not the same view of hell that I learned, amen. If a person can say that you can't know where you will spend eternity and the Bible says that these things are written so that you CAN KNOW, then I believe that someone needs to do some serious soul-searching for the answers BEFORE it is ETERNALLY too late, amen? I do know that the Pauline Epistles are all about our faith in Jesus and all about God's grace which is defined as "unmerited favor" and means that we simply don't deserve it, our righteousness is as filthy rags and we are plainly warned that if we fall away from the simple teachings of Peter and Paul and the other apostles that taught we are saved by grace+nothing, we are actually asking for the wrath of God to fall upon us. Guess I need to stop this post and go on to some other topics that I had previously gotten started. God bless, Janice | ||
| Carol_Anne (Carol_Anne) |
I have wondered about hell for some time now. When I first left the SDA faith and started to do crack, I had no fear of hell because I was taught that God is merciful and will never make me burn and suffer forever. I felt that if I turned away from God there was no big consequence. Sure, if you fear not being in communion with God was bad but when you are falling fast in satans world, the world of drugs and destruction, you really don't care. Now, if I had a healthy fear of "hell" it might have been different. Praise God I got out alive and actually closer to God for all I have gone through. Now, I have been learning a little more "facts" about hell and want it clarified to me. Is there really a hell? Is it really true that God will not just get rid of everything and all the unsaved with no longer exist? I look forward to a simple, easy to understand answer. Thank you so much. | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Carol Anne, I don't have a "simple, easy to understand" answer yet, either... :-) But I think I'm seeing more clearly that the final, eternal separation from a Holy God... resulting and ending in hell... is very real. Hell is something in which we should have--as you say it--"a healthy fear". It IS a big consequence to turn away from God's love, forgiveness, and perfection given us in the Cross of Christ! The "wrath of God" must finally be given to those who do not accept the One who took that wrath for FOR US on the Cross...Jesus. He alone gives us all the righteousnes we need to have access to, and peace with, a totally holy God. grace always, cindy | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
I don't like the thought of hell being forever but I really can't see anywhere in the Bible that it is not forever and ever: "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10) "A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:9-11) Here's a pretty good article that presents both sides, sort of: http://www.layhands.com/WillSinnersBurnForever.htm | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Carol Anne, Praise God he saved you! I don't believe we can fully understand hell because it is not in our physical world. Jesus taught more about hell than anyone else in the Bible, and there is nothing to indicate it's not eternal. Jesus said it would be forever, and he used the same word that he used when he said eternal life is forever. I've come to see that rejecting Jesus must have a consequence as significant as accepting him is significant. If accepting Jesus means we gain eternal life, then rejecting his sacrifice and falling under his wrath must also have eternal signficance. I don't believe God can be just without his wrath toward sin being eternal. If God had to die to save us from God's wrath and that death yielded eternal life for us, then rejecting God's sacrifice and inheriting his wrath must also be eternal. If God's wrath toward evil could be satisfied by annihilating those who reject him, then his wrath must be less significant than his grace. If his grace is eternal and grants eternal life, then his wrath against evil must be eternal. I've also come to realize that my definition of "eternal death" may not have been accurate. There's nothing in the Bible to indicate that eternal death is not the condition of a lost person in hell. Praise God for Jesus! Colleen | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 71 Registered: 4-2000 |
THE DOCTRINE OF STRANGE FIRE Being that Seventh-day Adventists believe in three different resurrections, it is not surprising that they also teach two different types of fire for the obliteration of the ungodly. They hold both of these views solely by the authority of Ellen White. Adventist apologists make a big deal about the fire that will quickly CONSUME the wicked of all ages. They further contend that only a brief, consuming-type fire (a quick-fix) would be representative of a loving God. However, Ellen White contends that Satan will actually burn for several days--a fire that TORMENTS as well. How can a fire that momentarily consumes also torment for many days? Evidently, the annihilating god also has a slow cooker in his arsenal. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 324 Registered: 7-2003 |
Yes, I remember being taught that the fire would burn in direct proportion to your wickedness. The more wicked you were the longer you would burn so the Devil would burn the longest (a few days as you said). Dennis, fill me in on the three resurrections. I'm foggy on this. In SDA escatology I remember a pre-millenial resurrection of the good and the wicked (is that two?). Then the good go to be with Jesus in Heaven for a 1000 years so they can review the records of the wicked. Then the New Jerusalem comes back to earth after the 1000 years and the wicked left on earth try to attack it (is there another resurrection here?). Then God obliterates all the wicked forever. After being away from it for a while I'm losing the details. Chris | ||
| Jeannette Registered user Username: Jeannette Post Number: 21 Registered: 3-2003 |
I am still unsure about the eternal fire. What is going to happen to whole civilizations that never ever heard of Christ? Are they going to be judged according to their knowledge or will they be like they never existed? When the wicked die they go to hell, then resurected and back to hell? In the physical world, when you burn something one it is totally burnt it is "consumed" you cannot burn it anymore. Is God going to keep people alive so that they can burn in hell for ever? or is this happening in the spiritual world? As you can see I am very confused. Jeannette | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 72 Registered: 4-2000 |
Chris, Adventists believe in a so-called "special resurrection" of "those who pierced Him" based solely on Rev. 1:7. Obviously, the problem with the "special resurrection" is that this singular passage does not support it (akin to Dan. 8:14 and the investigative judgment theory/alibi). Ellen White makes Daniel 8:14 and Rev. 1:7 into two different doctrines. Again, these passages do NOT support her views. Making a doctrine out one verse of Scripture ignores accepted principles of hermeneutics in the first place. This is the hallmark of a cult (e.g., Mormon's baptism for the dead, etc.). In the Desire of Ages, on page 62 or 87 depending on which version one has, Ellen White states, "All this displeased His brothers. Being OLDER than Jesus, they felt that He should be under their dictation." That Jesus had OLDER brothers and that Joseph was previously married, is an unbiblical account that Ellen White imported from Catholicism in defense of their doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary. The Gospel accounts declare that Jesus was the "firstborn" of Mary (a designation confirming that there were other siblings from her womb). Furthermore, Joseph was not the earthly father of Jesus. Step siblings are brothers and sisters who share ONE common parent--not two. In this case, ONLY Mary was a common parent to Jesus and his brothers and sisters. Joseph, being an adoptive parent, does not change the fact that adoptive parents do not author step-children. I recently discussed this false teaching of Ellen White with Dr. Ward Hill, your former Union College religion professor. After assuring him that the Bible does not have even have one passage in support of Jesus having OLDER brothers, I candidly asked him, "What is your personal view about this?" He replied that his view was that Jesus had OLDER brothers because that is what the Bible teaches. I then further probed him by asking, "Where in the Bible do you find a single verse to support that?" He did not answer my question while quickly changing to another subject. The bottom line would be to ask, "Who do you love the most: Jesus or Ellen White?" In the many years I have known him, I have never found him to even once question anything about Ellen White. However, he has frequently attempted to point out flaws and contradictions in the Bible--especially when his prophetess is questioned in any way. If Ellen White has first place in one's heart, it is clearly a violation of the first commandment. However, being this is not violating the fourth commandment, it is not a big deal to the Adventist mindset. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 327 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thanks Dennis. | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 531 Registered: 11-2002 |
Please, explain. So what if Joseph has older children from a previous marriage? They still would have been considered brothers and sisters of Jesus. I just don't get what is important about this. And, I also understood that the SDA church teaches three resurections but I never could make heads or tails out of how they came to this conclusion so I just decided to me it's a total non-issue. God is good, God is just and I just don't even let a discussion get to all this other stuff. When the SDA kin bring it up and want to make a big issue about it (and believe me, they do) I just tell them I'm not concerned about that and I don't understand it and furthernmore I have no intention of even trying to understand it and as far as I am concerned it it a mystery and when I die and I'm with Jesus then I will find out so leave me alone about it and that ends that conversation. | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 74 Registered: 4-2000 |
Susan, Jesus' brothers and sisters were younger than him, for he was the FIRSTBORN of Mary. Consequently, Jesus' brothers and sisters had to be from Mary's womb to be considered his siblings. Joseph was not Jesus' biological father, and by calling him Jesus' earthly father one is actually denying His virgin birth. JESUS WAS THE SON OF GOD! Importantly, there is no biblical passage that shows that Joseph was previously married and had children from a previous marriage. This speculation is solely imported from Catholicism to lend support to the "perpetual virginity of Mary" theory. Evidently, Ellen White and her bookmakers didn't catch this aberration when they busily copied from uninspired writers. As Protestants, we cannot dismiss "Sola Scriptura" and rely instead on extrabiblical, hierarchical, and ecclesiastical authority. If one tampers with the Word of God in any form, it usually creates aberrant theological issues--especially those centering around Jesus. The Bible is God's book and it is "God breathed" in its entirety. God, as its ultimate author, wrote it through his able penmen. All the Bible stories are written like God wants them to be told. We have a sacred obligation to meticulously uphold the Bible narratives as written. Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 235 Registered: 12-2003 |
Amen, Dennis! Colleen |
