| Author | Message | ||
| Flo (Flo) |
A friend recommended a Foursquare Church to attend. Anyone know if their beliefs are biblical? I'm a little concerned about the speaking in tongues. Flo | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Flo, I used to worry about everything and anything until I realized that in Christ I have authority over evil. Isn't that just cool? Also Jesus said that no one can snatch us out of His hand. Wow again! I don't know anything about that church, they may have a website you could check out, but if your friend invited you and you don't have a church home, then just go and visit! Maybe it's just the place God wants you to be! If it is, you'll know! If not, then that's just one to check off the list.  | ||
| Steve (Steve) |
Hi Flo, Just like any other church: Check it out! It's a Christian church. My only real experience with a Foursquare minister was here in Riverside. I was actually quite shocked at what I heard. I had been invited to attend a Messianic church that was meeting in a Foursquare Gospel church. During the service I participated in the singing, dancing (yes, Messianic dancing!) and listened intently to the sermon. It was complete legalism. The sermon was on Psalm 119, and tied in scriptures from the New Testament that the SDAs use constantly in an attempt to show that the law is in effect for the Believer. After the service, I spoke with many of the folks in attendance. There were several SDAs in the congregation. Two of them, individually, told me that they enjoy the service as a change from the typical SDA service, but they were solidly SDA. (I leave off the details. My head was spinning.) Then I was able to speak with one of the elders. His wife was the one who invited me. He was formerly a Foursquare Church pastor at that very church. He was so on-fire over what had been preached. He came up to me afterwards and was apparently overjoyed with the service. He began to explain to me that these people had taught him some things that he had NEVER learned in the Foursquare church. Flo, I agree regarding the tongues. However, as a denomination, it is definitely Christian. But like any church, the individual congregation may be very legalistic. Be careful of the tongues. If that is an issue, I'd stay away. Be careful if you ever hear anyone referring to the "Second Blessing." That's the "extra" stuff that (I'm assuming) you don't want to get saddled with post-SDA. The Foursquare church has 22 Fundamental Beliefs. I've put their doctrinal beliefs below, and highlighted as follows: Green = Looks good to me! Anyone out there want to comment? Red = Raises a Red flag. Purple = Perhaps a slight change would make it more Biblical for me. ___________________________________________________ 1. THE HOLY SCRIPTURES We believe the Bible is God-inspired (2 Timothy 3:16,17). 2. THE ETERNAL GODHEAD We believe God is Triune: Father, Son and Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 13:14). 3. THE FALL OF MAN We believe that man was created in the image of God, but that by voluntary disobedience he fell from perfection (Romans 5:12). 4. THE PLAN OF SALVATION We believe that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us, signing the pardon of all who believe on Him (John 3:16; Romans 5:8). 5. SALVATION THROUGH GRACE We believe that we have no righteousness and must come to God pleading the righteousness of Christ (Ephesians 2:8). On points #4 & 5: 6. REPENTANCE AND ACCEPTANCE We believe that upon sincere repentance, and a whole-hearted acceptance of Christ, we are justified before God (I John 1:9). 7. THE NEW BIRTH We believe that the change which takes place in the heart and life at conversion is a very real one (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 2:20). 8. DAILY CHRISTIAN LIVING We believe that it is the will of God that we be sanctified daily, growing constantly in the faith (Hebrews 6:1). 9. BAPTISM AND THE LORD'S SUPPER We believe that baptism by immersion is an outward sign of an inward work (Matt. 28:19). We believe in the commemoration of the Lord's Supper by the symbolic use of the bread and juice of the vine (I Corinthians 11:24, 25). 10. BAPTISM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT We believe that the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is to endue the believer with power; and that His incoming is after the same manner as in Bible days (Acts 2:4). Personally, I don't like the second part of the sentence. In practice many of these people believe and teach that the "incoming" may not happen at the moment of belief, or at baptism. It is a "second blessing" that is to be had by the believer. If the salvation Jesus gives me is not enough, but I need something more that will REALLY PROVE that He is in me, then you're really being judged by works. In this case the works is tongues, rather than Sabbath. They won't keep you from being a member (at least the Pentecostal churches that I am more familiar with would never keep you outside of membership) just because you don't speak in tongues. 11. THE SPIRIT-FILLED LIFE We believe that it is the will of God that we walk in the Spirit daily (Ephesians 4:30-32). 12. THE GIFTS AND FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT We believe that the Holy Spirit has gifts to bestow upon the Christian; and that we should show spiritual fruit as evidence of a Spirit-filled life (I Corinthians 12:1-11; Galatians 5:22). #12 is green because the pentecostals usually make a distinction between being baptized in the Spirit (speaking in tongues) and receiving spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit. Just make sure this difference is not made to be a wall of separation. 13. MODERATION We believe that the experience and daily walk of the believer should never lead him into extremes of fanaticism (Philippians 4:5). I'd be careful. Who defines "fanaticism?" For most SDAs, tongues is "fanaticism" even though there have been some well documented cases of tongues being used to reach those in another language with the gospel. Of course, EGW was a fanatic. She crawled around on all fours, barking like a dog and referring to herself as The Imitation of Christ. (Yeah, quite an imitation. The resemblance... Well it leaves me speechless!) 14. DIVINE HEALING We believe that divine healing is the power of Christ to heal the physically sick in answer to the prayer of faith (James 5:14-16). If they stick with James 5 then this could be wonderful. My experiences with Pentecostals on this issue were horrible. They take the passage in Isaiah 53, "by His stripes, we are healed" to refer to physical healing. That is a false interpretation. Be careful. This one could cause real, and serious harm, or even death if they are "fanatical" about this. 15. THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST We believe that the second coming of Christ is personal and imminent (I Thessalonians 4:16, 17). I would just add "literal." 16. CHURCH RELATIONSHIP We believe it is our sacred duty to identify ourselves with the visible Body of Christ (Acts 16:5; Hebrews 10:25). 17. CIVIL GOVERNMENT We believe that rulers should be upheld at all times except in things opposed to the will of God (Romans 13:1-5). I like this one. However, it can be crazy-making if it becomes convoluted regarding what is and is not opposed to the will of God. 18. THE FINAL JUDGEMENT We believe that all shall stand some day before the judgement seat of God, and there receive eternal life or death (2 Corinthians 5:10). 19. HEAVEN We believe that Heaven is the glorious eternal home of born-again believers (John 14:1-3; Revelation 7:15-17). 20. HELL We believe that hell is the place of eternal torment for all who reject Christ as the Savior (Revelation 20:10,15). 21. EVANGELISM We believe that soul winning is the most important responsibility of the Church (James 5:20). Yes. Preaching the Good News of Jesus IS the purpose of the Church. It's irresistible if it's pure. 22. TITHES AND OFFERINGS We believe that the method ordained of God for the support and spread of His cause is by giving of tithes and free-will offerings (Malachi 3:10; 2 Corinthians 9:7). OOPS! Beware of Tithers. The word is used freely in the Christian community. I don't believe in it. Many may disagree with this. It's just my take. It can be another legalistic tentacle waiting to grab hold of anything that moves. OK. This was a long post. But since it's under the "Finding A New Church" discussion, perhaps it's appropriate. Steve | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Corinthians 14:2 KJV Says No man understands him, he just speaks to God. "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;" 1 Corinthians 14:4a KJV guess this one's not for anyone else either. Is it possible that there are tongues for witnessing and tongues for speaking to God? Not trying to start a debate, but how can we interpret these verses? | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Steve, I enjoyed your list which, by the way, is basically the same list that Baptists refer to as "the fundamentals of our faith". This same list is found at www.discoveryseries.org, in the book about "How to Recognize a Good Church". I do want to comment on the "tongues" though. Like all of the others, I say "beware" because the topic of tongues is in great debate. It is like the text that Sabra just mentioned, and the Holy Spirit speaks in an "unknown" tongue which NO MAN CAN UTTER, but I do feel that we need to understand the differences in the Pentecostal tongues and the tongue which no man can utter. On the day that the Holy Ghost came down and all the people began to speak in tongues, it needs to be stressed over and over and over again until all of those ìPentecostalsî can see clearly that the tongues mentioned in this Bible passage that described the occurance at Pentecost was FOREIGN LANGUAGES, and I get sick and tired of them using this scripture to justify the claim of having ìthe Giftî. The gift of tongues that Paul was preaching about was also ìforeign languagesî because IF you study the Pauline Epistles, you will find that Bro. Paul was a very educated man and could speak in at least five known foreign tongues. If you do a study on the word tongue/tongues, you can go all the way back to Genesis to find Noah and his sons coming off of the ark and the following generations going off in different directions, one son's descendents went to his country and spoke his ìtongueî and another went to his country and spoke his ìtongueî and the third group did the same. This is recorded in Genesis 10:20-32 and was the beginning of the Gentile nation (c.10,v.5). In the very next chapter, you will find that ALL of the people had come together (you can't come together unless you were apart first, amen? What did the previous chapter just speak about?) They had overcome the language barrier and were speaking in ONE tongue/language and this gave them the confidence to band together to build a tower to the heavens to access the home of the gods. The true GOD (Godhead) then came down and scattered them and apparently took away this discernment that they had apparently developed in order to understand one another. Back to Paul, Paul was very clear in his teachings that too much emphasis was being placed on speaking in different languages and reminded them that it was more important to pray for a discernment of the Holy Word (prophecy) that is was to speak different languages. For myself, I read that we are instructed in great detail on how and when to speak in a foreign language and the instructions from Paul were that it was supposed to be done in an orderly fashion with only one or two at a time speaking and NO MORE THAN THREE, if I remember the text correctly, and then it was only to be spoken IF a translator was present to translate what was spoken so that the church would be edified from the message given in any particular language (No translator, No tongues). Paul even stressed that without order in the church, a stranger may come in and think you are all a bunch of nuts for acting in such a fashion. Lastly, Paul clearly told his followers that tongues was a gift and that NOT ALL had the gift, and in light of that fact, I get offended when I read a billboard that invites me to a church that will "teach" me HOW to speak in tongues. I am offended too when people teach that speaking in tongues is "evidence" that I have the Holy Spirit which is certainly against scripture, is it not? My Bible tells me that it is only through the Holy Ghost that I am able to call God MY LORD and MY GOD. Too much emphasis is placed on tongues just like too much emphasis is placed on prophets! I have God's word on it that I am in no need of anyone teaching me anything about salvation after I have received my salvation, so, what else can be added to that? We are to have an earnest desire to study the word of God but for exhortation, rebuke, edification, sound doctrine and correction. We need only claim Jesus as our savior and ask the Holy Spirit to come into our hearts and he does the rest as we choose to follow him and have faith in his truth that our sins are forgiven and we now are IN Christ. As far as the text that Sabra gave, I have come to my own conclusions about those texts, with the aid of the Holy Spirit of course. I truly believe that Romans 8:26 is not in reference to a literal, audible voice of sorts but is our ìinnerî spirit that intercedes in our behalf to the throne room of heaven. If the Holy Spirit ìgroansî things that ìcannotî be uttered then I take that to mean that WE arenít saying anything. I take it to mean something more like a ìsilentî prayer. Since God knows our thoughts and the Spirit makes intercession for us, doesnít it make sense that this is what all of the scriptures are in reference to? We have no way of knowing what each of us is praying when we come into public worship and bow our heads and TALK to God. Our Holy Spirit inside of us is speaking to God in heaven. We are IN Christ and Christís Spirit is in the heart of every true born-again child of God, so, I ask myself this question, ìWhy are so many people putting such emphasis on tongues anyway?î You can go to one religious group over here and be told ìwe have a prophetî and you can go to this group over there and hear ìwe have the gift of tonguesî and still there are those who say ìwe know the truth and want to give it to youî and to the extreme opposite, we are told that we are God's our own selves. The bottom line goes back to what the RBC ministries teach about recognizing a ìgoodî church. If a church doesnít believe in the divine nature of all three persons of the Godhead such as J.W.s; and if they want to add to or take something away from the Holy, infallible, inerrant word of God like the SDAs, J.W.s, and Mormons do; if they donít accept the virgin birth of Jesus and his sinless sacrifice on Calvary for remission of sin like all too many churches do these days; and if they are not willing to see a just God that rewards the Godly with heaven and the ungodly with hell, then you need to continue your search for a church family somewhere else while always keeping these verses of scripture in mind from II Corinthians 11: 13,14,15: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of CHRIST ÖFor Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the MINISTERS of righteousnessÖ.. In closing, Paul said this in I Corinthians 14:19- Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. I also conclude that since the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus and speaks in intercession for us with the heavenly Father, I believe that he should ìsoundî the same through each and every person that supposedly has the GIFT of speaking in the Holy Ghost tongue, so, why is it that in all my years of hearing the various ìPentecostalsî speak in an unknown tongue, why do they all sound different? Isnít that evidence in itself that it isnít really God speaking through them? Short of making fun of those who claim to have the gift of tongues, I will add this statement in closing. I mentioned something at work once that my cousin didn't think was very nice, my Pentecostal cousin then began to ìillustrateî her irritation at what I had just said by speaking in tongues. I know that she was only doing this to LOOK superior to me and there she was, working like crazy on her job of sorting and collating cassette tapes on her table as she was pacing back and forth in almost a chant, she would speak something unintelligible for a moment or two and then she would make this stuttering noise like ìknee, knee, knee, knee, knee, kneeî and say a few more words and again ìknee, knee, knee, knee, knee, kneeî and this went on for a good five minutes and during the entire time she had this big old grin from ear to ear, she had no clue whatsoever of what she was saying but it apparently made her "feel good" by staging such a show for me because she kept looking over at me as she continued this nonsense. I decided to start singing and began ìJesus, Jesus, Jesus, thereís just something about that nameî and at the mention of Jesus, my cousin stopped her chanting, go figure? She seemed almost upset at me for singing out his name like that, and could it be that I had just ran off one of Satan's little imps by calling on that Holy name? I hope that this long post doesnít give the impression that I feel superior and am degrading those who choose to speak in ìtonguesî but I am giving this information and this story to help edify as well as clarify what the total definition of the word ìtongueî means in our Bible. I hope that this helps and apologize if I hurt anyoneís feelings, that wasnít my intention. I did write a few months ago, in one of my posts, about a man that was home from the missionary field and went to a church that spoke in tongues and found a woman smiling and waving her hands in the air while speaking in an unknown tongue which in fact was a foreign language and happened to be the language of the people where he had just lived during his missionary tour, and to this man's horror, this "sweet-looking" woman was blaspheming the Holy Ghost and saying all kinds of evil stuff about Jesus and his church and when this man rebuked the demon, the woman passed out in the floor while everyone in the church ran for their lives because of the revelation of the demonic activity going on right under their noses!!! God bless you all as we continue to grow in Godís grace and truth found only in a study of his word through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Janice | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Tongues, like all other gifts from God, is often counterfeited by Satan. That being said, there are real gifts of tongues. I would never say a person who spoke a "prayer language" was necessarily doing the work of Satan. I do believe many true Christians speak in tongues when they pray. I do not believe that tongues are a necessary sign that a person is born again. All the gifts of the Spirit come from God, and he distributes them according to his will. Not everyone gets all of them. I would not say that because people in a church speak in tongues they are dangerous. Nor would I say that the presence of tongues necessarily means that God is present. Ask God to give you his discernment. Ask him to direct you to the church where he wants you. Keep yourself in the word of God regularly. I concur with Steve above that a church that teaches a "second blessing" or the necessity of the baptism of the Spirit apart from being born again is adding to the gospel. When a person accepts Jesus, he receives the Holy Spirit. For the rest of his life, God will grow him in the Spirit, and there will be times when it is extremely obvious that the Spirit's power is at work in him. Other times it may not be as visible. As we surrender the parts of ourselves to Jesus, the secrets and shame and hurts and unhealed wounds, we become increasingly aware of the Holy Spirit at work in us, healing us, giving us insight, helping us to know Jesus better. Surrender allows the Holy Spirit to have his way in us. Accepting Jesus but then refusing to surrender our sins and secrets to him limits the Spirit's power. Stay connected to Jesus. If Jesus is not the focus, we're in danger. The main purpose of the Holy Spirit's ministry is to confirm the gospel and to make Jesus real to the world--real to us. It's all about HIM! Colleen | ||
| Janice (Janice) |
Colleen, As usual, that is a great insight and a true gift that God has blessed you with. I liked what you said about the gifts, that God distributes them according to his will. Not everyone gets all of them. That was the point that I had hoped to make with my post, not everyone is going to speak in tongues regardless of the definition of the word. It is a gift and certainly not a necessity as many of the charismatic groups would have you believe. I am reminded of the religious leaders of Christ's day and what he said about them, he said that they require a "sign" and this is what many teach, the manifestation of tongues is a "sign" that you have received the Holy Ghost. NO it isn't, like you just said, we are joined to the church family and receive the Holy Ghost at the very moment we realize our lost condition and ask God to come into our hearts. I also thought that your comment "I would not say that because people in a church speak in tongues they are dangerous. Nor would I say that the presence of tongues necessarily means that God is present" was a very profound statement, just look at what I posted about the missionary hearing that woman speak blasphemy in the language that he had just learned in Africa while he taught them about Christ. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
There may be some branches of churches that teach that you must speak in tongues to have the Holy Spirit but I don't think that is very widespread belief or doctrine. If any church teaches such nonsense I would definately stay away from that! Best thing to do is pray for knowledge and understanding on the subject. We always tend to be afraid of what we don't understand. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I agree, Sabra. | ||
| Flo (Flo) |
Thanks to you all for your comments and insights. Thought there might be someone out there who knows of this group-an off shoot of the SDA Church. See this web site: http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~zimmerman/StatementBeliefs.htm. I'm still sorting out long held beliefs vs Bible facts. Gets mighty confusing at times. There seemed to be some "security" in the know-it-all, have-it-all, only ones saved beliefs of the SDA-like it was all wrapped up and you didn't have to do any hunting or searching. Ever feel that way? I hold on to the hope and belief that God will someday make it all plain to those who are honest in heart. This search for a new church is still ongoing (found the Foursquare isn't for me-but did learn my grandmother had been baptized back in the early 1920's by Aimee Semple McPherson-the founder.)I'm just so happy to have so many new friends here on this forum who have basically gone through similar struggles. In the end I think the search and struggles makes the true gospel of Jesus Christ that much more precious. Thanks for your friendship and prayers! Flo | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Steve... and Flo... I agree with your analysis on the Foursquare denomination, Steve! I've attended (but not become a "member") of a very large Foursquare church the past 2 plus years and have been blessed with the music, special programs, and many of the pastor's sermons. But like many churches, the Foursquare denomination just doesn't seem to comprehend the difference JESUS' death and resurrection has made in the NEW Covenant! This church's local magazine made a push for "Tithing" at the beginning of this year. (They were promoting a building program!) I corresponded with the pastor on it and, although he was much more grace-oriented in presenting tithing than Adventists,...he still brought in the Malachi scripture on getting a "blessing" poured out by giving a "tithe"...even if it wasn't "10 percent". (????) He also said that Paul (in 2nd Corinthians) assumed that the early church was "already tithing" when he exhorted them to give generously. I don't agree with that! We have already been immensely blessed in Christ! And the New Covenant has no "tithe". We are FREE to give in response to the Holy Spirits' promptings. I don't think the word "tithe" should even be mentioned in exhorting believers to "excel in this grace of giving" (2nd Cor. 8:7). Cindy | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
When I first started going to a "sunday church" I felt like I was supposed to tithe. The pastor actually told me that was old testament and I didn't have to tithe. I still felt God telling me to tithe, then every show I turned on christian TV was about tithing and every radio program it seemed. So I had already sent the mortgage and didn't have enough to tithe. I withdrew the money from the bank and was expecting the mortgage to bounce. Monday there was an extra 300.00 credited to my account and by Wednesday another 300.00 some mysterious band error that they found, hmmmmmmmm You all can do what you want. It is NOT law and it will NOT save you anymore than you are saved but God WILL bless you for it! I am convinced that 10% tithe was just a shadow like everything else in the OT, in the New we are supposed to give all to God. If we truly listen to the Hly Spirit in our giving I'm sure it will be much more than 10%. There's more...God told me to partner with Joyce Meyer at her conference. I only had my babysitting money, money for one bill that had to be paid and $17.00. I partnered with 15.00 and gave the 2.00 in the offering. When I got home there was a check in my mailbox for 644.00. Later I increased the partnership $5.00 a month and the next day there was a check in the mailbox for over $800.00! Both of these were money that I had been waiting for but not expecting that much and not knowing when it would come. If you have a need--sow a seed, it works! | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Flo, Can I give you just one word of advice? RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There is no freedom found in the offshoot group that you asked about. As I read through their statement of beliefs (and I admittedly have not done as thorough of a review as Steve did on the Foursquare Church), I see very little different from the SDA's 27 fundamentals, except a lot more scripturally unsupported opinions. There is also a lot of EGW mixed in (i.e. the explanation of the fall, the purpose of man, the instruction that children should receive their instruction from hom (and in the outdoors until age 8 - 10). Go back and look through the beliefs again and notice how many of them have NO scriptures associated with them. I have always had difficulty with the shotgun of giving 20 different isolated verses to support a single doctrinal belief, but they have gone to the opposite extreme. Its just my opinion, but if SDA is what you want, why go with a substitute. Put another way, if hamburger is what you really want, why go with vegeburger? In His Grace Doug | ||
| Doc (Doc) |
Perhaps, as a Pentecostal pastor, I should just mention what it is that I in fact believe about tongues and spiritual gifts, so it is not misrepresented. For a start, speaking in tongues is not a salvation issue. There is nothing in the Bible which would link speaking in tongues with salvation. Someone is saved by repenting of their sins and putting their faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. Speaking in tongues is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12-14. All these gifts are tools for the edification of the body of Christ (12: 7-11; 14: 3). In addition, tongues are useful for private worship and prayer (14: 14-19). Paul speaks in tongues more than the rest of them, but not in the church. Gifts of the Spirit become problematical when the instructions Paul gives for their use are not followed. For instance: ìTwo or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is saidî (1 Cor 14: 29); ìDo not put out the Spiritís fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt; test everything, hold on to the good.î (1 Thess 5: 19-21). The point is, if gifts of the Spirit need to be tested, that means they are not infallible. Tests that can be applied include: Anything the Holy Spirit does will be centred on Christ and glorify Him (see John 15: 26; 16: 14; 1 Cor 12: 3). Nothing the Holy Spirit says will conflict with what God has already revealed in His word. As the Son is the final revelation of the Father (Heb 1: 1-2) no new dogmatic information will be revealed. Things go wrong when these tests are not applied. One extreme is to accept everything that any so-called prophet says without question. This, of course, is what happened with Ellen White. When people became convinced she was a prophet, she could say exactly what she wanted, no matter how unbiblical or how manipulative. If people applied the ìtests,î she would have a ìvisionî of them burning in hell, so they had better get back into line. The other extreme is to ban the use of gifts altogether, just in case something may go wrong. Paul, however, does finish his block of teaching with the following, ìTherefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.î (1 Cor 14: 39-40). Just a few thoughts. Doc P.S. I donít major on tongues, I major on Jesus ñ just to make that clear. | ||
| Flo (Flo) |
Hi! Do you remember the discussion after May 26 about Family Radio? I read this from The Calvary Contender Website dated Jan. 1, 2003- "The Heresy of Harold Camping-The following is from an ACCC resolution: Harold Camping, founder, president, and voice of Family Radio, has announced that the church age has ended and that 'the church as a corporate institution has no spiritual authority,' and is now advising believers who are members of a local church to 'withdraw their membership, and fellowship on Sundays with whomever there may be who are of like mind.' He has writen: 'No longer are you to be under the spiritual rulership of the church. We must remove ourselves from the church....The church has ceased to be an institution or divine organism to serve God.' He instructs local churches to 'reorganize their congregation, to become a fellowship of believers.' The American Council of Christian Churches meeting in Monett, MO, October 22-24 (2002), warns Christians of this dangerous and false teaching, and goes on record as saying this is heresy....." Thoughts anyone?? The website where I found this was home.hiwaay.net/~contendr/1-2003.html Flo | ||
| Flo (Flo) |
By the way, Doug222, thanks for that warning. Unfortunately it comes a little late for me because I left the SDA Church for that very group of people. I wish I knew then what I know now-that goes for when I joined the SDA Church, too. Your perceptive evaluation is still helpful to me, though, as I have ties to some of the people. You are right when you say there is no freedom. It is extremely self-righteous, legalistic and cultish. In the beginning, though, it certainly didn't seem so and I was filled with joy to belong to "the last remnant"-ha! I have been looking for anyone out there that might have more information on this movement. The movement was called the Sabbath Rest Advent Church and was headed by its "messenger" Fred Wright from Australia(a former SDA). He is no longer living but the group has been take over by Andreas Dura in Germany. Doc-so glad you preach Christ and Him crucified and not tongues. I belonged to AofG for a time and they made me feel I wasn't saved because I didn't speak in tongues. I left that for SDA. Hm..... Flo | ||
| Rochelleradclif (Rochelleradclif) |
Hi Former Adventist Fellowship. I've been reading this posting about finding a new church and have been relieved that Christians can talk about beliefs about tongues and tithes and cultic doctrines without becoming hostile. I was raised SDA and must say that despite wrong doctrines, it did have the effect of making me very hungry for a real relationship with Jesus Christ through His blood alone. I've also had some very unusual experiences with Charismatic and Pentecostal Christians, but in the end I realized that when my trust was really in the Holy Spirit, He revealed to me in time whether or not a spiritual gift was pure and from God and when it was not. My greater challenge has been finding Christians who can hear my testimony of being delivered from SDA teachings without becoming protective of SDA's. I don't believe that I'm being judgmental of the people just because I can no longer agree with their doctrines. Interestingly enough, when I explain to SDA's on the job why I'm no longer SDA, they are not offended. Anyway, I don't want to ramble. Thanks for being honest and sharing with people who want to grow. | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Welcome Rochelleradclif. This forum is truly a blessing and unique. Most of the forums I have visited that discuss SDA theology end up being very hostile and and antagonistic. Several of the members of this forum are participating on another one as we speak. What is unique here is that even though we don't always agree with each other, there is a spirit of mutual respect. I really appreciate that. Flo, the organization you have become a part of sounds like one of those movements that believes that the SDA church has apostasized from its original roots--therefore losing its status as "the remnant church." They tend to be much more staunch followers of the counsels of EGW. There was a group of such followers who attended the SDA church I last belonged to. They would literaly get up and walk out of the service if anything occurred that they felt was not in keeping with her counsels. For example, one week the Pastor closed the sermon with the song, "Who's Side are You Leaning On." Its kind of a kids song, which includes some physical movement (i.e. leaning to one side, then to the other). All of them got up and walked out--waiting in the vestibule until the service was over. They were also strict vegans. I am not sure if the organization you are a part of is like that, but it sounds kind of like it. Doug | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Thanks Doc, I finally found a church that operates in all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit--biblically! Satan just tries to confuse everything and get the focus off of Jesus anyway possible. Welcome Rochelleradclif! | ||
| Dennis (Dennis) |
Cindy, There NEVER was such a requirement as a "monetary tithe" in all of Scripture. Tithing, in the Mosaic or Old Covenant, focused exclusively on farmers and ranchers (grains and animals). Interestingly, it is often surprising to people to find that a large segment of the people in Israel never tithed at all (e.g., teachers, judges, musicians, medical workers, hired farm hands, librarians, law enforcement personnel, lumbermen, fishermen, handicraft workers, military and government workers, weavers, miners, construction workers, manufacturers, merchandisers, etc.). Many people have been hasty in assuming that all the income earned by Israelites was subject to the laws of tithing. This is not the case. Any Jewish rabbi can inform a person what items were to be tithed because the Bible makes the matter plain. One exception applied (Lev. 27:31)in regard to the "redeeming" of grain when a fifth part was added. This was necessary and/or convenient when transportation problems surfaced. Monetary redemption, on the other hand, was not allowed for the tithe of animals. Moses declared: "It shall not be redeemed" (verse 33). It is important to note that the law of the firstlings (that is, the firstborn of herds and flocks or the first fruit of harvest from farms) is a very different set of laws than those of tithing. They must not be confused as is sometimes done by preachers and priests who want to be the first paid from one's income, so they erroneously apply the word "first" regarding animals and produce in this regard. But the law of firstlings is not for Christians. For firstlings see Numbers 3:12, 13,40-45; 8:16-18 and for first fruits see Leviticus 23:10-14; Numbers 18:12-28; Deuteronomy 18:4. One must distinguish these laws of the firstborn and the first fruits from the law of tithing. While in the wilderness the Israelites gave to the Levites what little tithe and firstlings and first fruits they had in any manner they pleased. At that time Moses said each Israelite had been able "to do whatsoever is right in his own eyes." But when they crossed into the Land of Canaan, this unregulated manner for doing such things was to stop. Once the central sanctuary was established in the midst of Canaan, new regulations were ordained by Moses to come into play. "Ye shall not do after all that we do here [in the wilderness]" (Deut. 12:8). These new directions were also changes in the laws of tithing. Once this fact is understood, we can realize the simple teachings about the full doctrine of tithing as recorded in the biblical revelation. They are, indeed, very different from "Christian tithing" today. As new covenant believers, we are no longer fettered with the mathematical formulas in the Law. This is an additional freedom we have in Christ. By applying a so-called "principle of giving" we are tampering with the laws of God and making them fit the human concepts that people have devised to hold on to old teachings that God has long ago rescinded or changed. Making laws into principles when God has given no such authorization to do so is risky business and it has no sanction within the Holy Scriptures. It is an excuse to make human laws of one's own imagination while not being satified with the divine interpretations that the Bible itself demands. If one wishes to make tithing a "principle," then why not make all rituals of the Bible to be principles? It is time to give up such nonsense that tithing is a principle of "universal law." That is a teaching of man, not God. It is made clear by the plain teaching of the apostle Paul that the biblical laws of tithing, new moons, sabbaths, holy days and all physical rituals no matter if they are mentioned as being the holiest ceremonies for humans ARE NO LONGER NECESSARY in a legal sense for Christians to observe. That is because we are now "in Christ" and we have already kept all these requirements in a perfect way by our being "in Christ" from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3-14). We will find that being "in Christ" on a continual basis from before the world's foundation (2 Timothy 1:9) means that Christ has been a substitute for us in fulfilling all the requirements that God the Father has placed on all mankind to perform. Let me explain. Let us start with that event that took place before the foundation of the world. The apostle Paul came to see that Christians are now reckoned by the Father to have been "in Christ" EVEN BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD (Ephesians 1:3-14). Paul shows through his teaching in the revelation of "the Mystery" that Christians are now accounted as having been circumcised at the same time Christ was circumcised. Christ was performing his role as a substitute for us in the eyes of the Father. Thus, when Christ was circumcised as a boy of eight days old, all Christians (male or female makes no difference for a spiritual principle is being discussed by Paul) were also circumcised at the same time. And even though you and I were not even born at the time, that makes no difference because Christ was doing something for us and for the whole world throughout all the ages of mankind. Our being "in Christ" does not stop with the crucifixion. Christians are also accounted as having been resurrected WITH CHRIST when Christ was resurrected from the dead--"you are risen WITH him" (Colossians 2:12,13; 3:1). Being "in Christ" from the foundation of the world means that Christ lived a substitutionary life for all Christians from that remote period in the past. It also means that what Christ accomplished in good works and in doing rituals while he was on earth has now been awarded to Christians as belonging to them because we were also "in Christ" during those times. This means that the Father now looks on Christians as already having kept all his commandments perfectly(when Christ did), that all Christians have died with Christ (when Christ died), that all Christians are reckoned to have been resurrected with Christ (when Christ was resurrected about 2000 years ago), and that all Christians have passed the judgment (as Christ did) and that all Christians now sit on the very throne of Christ which is located at the right hand of the Father in heaven (because that is where Christ is and all Christians are accounted to be "in Christ"). Christians have successfully accomplished (by being legally "in Christ") all the duties that God ever gave in a ritualistic sense for people to observe on earth. Importantly, Christians are already "in Christ" reigning in the heavens in the eyes of the Father. Sabbaths, holy days, and rituals are not necessary for members of that divine Family to which we belong--and that includes no more tithing to Levites and no more tithing to Christian ministers (John 5:17,18). There is certainly nothing wrong with giving ten percent or any percent of one's income to Christian ministry as the Holy Spirit impresses us. In fact, we should give generously, lovingly, spontaneously, and sacrificially to advance God's kingdom. However, the invoking of rescinded tithing laws to finance the Christian Church is without any biblical mandate. Christians cannot limit themselves to ancient mathematical laws and formulas in their giving. By God's grace, it is our joy and privilege to do much better than that! Dennis J. Fischer |
