| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Romans 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is NOT TO THE SINFUL NATURE, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you PUT TO DEATH THE MISDEEDS OF THE BODY, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Max: A brotherly advice: Your posts have been very inspirational when you discuss matters of Grace as pure Grace. In fact I think that even when you try to refute the Grace spoken by other members you actually PROVE THEIR POINT by quoting the scripitures that prove THAT GRACE PREVAILS EVEN WHEN WE ALLOW US TO DO THINGS THAT WE OUGHT NOT, AND THAT THINGS HAVE BECOME NEW AND DO NOT GET OLD AGAIN BECAUSE WE STUMBLE. That proves that you are indeed GRACE ORIENTED! My warning is that, perhaps unadvisedly, you are actually reading these scriptures as those who spend their lives pointing scriptures to prove that "by doing you get saved, by doing you get unsaved". You ARE NOT saying that by "doing" one gets saved, but IT SEEMS as if you are saying that perhaps by "DOING WHAT IS NOT RIGHT ONE MAY GET UNSAVED". I know because I had to deal with this people for the past 27 years in the Pentecostal Movement. AGAIN, YOU MIGHT NOT BE SAYING SUCH A THING, BUT YOU ARE USING THE SAME ARGUMENT AND THE SAME SCRIPTURES INTERPRETED THE SAME WAY. My advice is for you to check your position. I do not want to get into details because obviously my exegesis and hermeneutics of the scriptures you quoted is totally different. Also you use the NIV which translates in many instances where the Greek original says "FAITH OF CHRIST", OR FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD by FAITH IN CHRIST OR FAITH IN THE SON OF GOD (Galatians 2:16 is an example) and such translation tend to inspire the idea that we actually "are capable of having the kind of faith that pleases God" therefore EARNING GRACE under such faith. This has been the error of the "holiness" movement. I believe your cooperation to this forum is priceless. Please, try to understand what the other members are saying. They may be saying the same things that you have proven to have believed in ALL the posts you have written so far that I had the God given pleasure to read. Perhaps you should revise what the others are saying and then make a better assessment of how you should respond. I know I sound very unclear here. But I trust the Holy Spirit to "interpret" my words to you. I am nothing but a humble brother trying to bring the best of what you are as seen in this forum. Continue to bless us with your insights! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Max |
Dear Grace Ambassador, NIV Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. | ||
| Patti |
You preach a very strange gospel, Max. I suppose there is no point in furthering this discussion because there is really no discussion going on. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Max |
NIV 1 Corinthians 1:18 The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. | ||
| Graceambassador |
Dear Max: Unfortunately you confirmed my fears! But I love you anyway! The Holiness movement, which uses the argument and the scriptures interpreted as you did even in your last post are just as deadly as everything we know the SDA movement to be. Even in an age where exegesis and hermeneutics books are readly available. I am very sad that you jumped from the frying pan into the fire. The wrong kind of fire, I might add. ------------- To all: I pray dearly that this is NOT THE SAME MAX. I pray that this is one of the cases of mistaken identities as we had in the case of Wendy of old. I am sure Colleen and all of you remember what I am talking about. Other than that, I refuse to say anything bad or negative about Max and confirm that up until now he has been nothing but a blessing to this forum. Grace Ambassador | ||
| Max |
NIV 1 Timothy 2:1-3:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior. | ||
| Maryann |
Dear G.A. You said: "You ARE NOT saying that by "doing" one gets saved, but IT SEEMS as if you are saying that perhaps by "DOING WHAT IS NOT RIGHT ONE MAY GET UNSAVED"." If Max ever said that one could "GET UNSAVED" I'll eat my hat! As I mentioned earlier, criticism seems to be such a habit with some that Max appears to be using Bible verses that can't be twisted. Now he gets a personal attack. You said: "Even in an age where exegesis and hermeneutics books are readly available. I am very sad that you jumped from the frying pan into the fire. The wrong kind of fire, I might add. ------------- To all: I pray dearly that this is NOT THE SAME MAX. I pray that this is one of the cases of mistaken identities as we had in the case of Wendy of old. I am sure Colleen and all of you remember what I am talking about." Ray Charles can see that this is the SAME MAX, and he's blind!! I just can't believe you would have said such a thing! Maryann | ||
| Max |
God bless you Patti, Denise, Graceambassador, Maryann, Bill, Dan, Cindy and Rayna! It's been sheer delight trading Scriptures with you! Max of the Cross | ||
| Bmorgan |
Hi All, I am bawling. I feel terribly sad on the inside. I do not have much time now and will try to post later. Maryann, I think you are hearing, reading and seeing personal attacks and viciousness toward Max that are not there. To be quite honest, lately I have been terribly confused by what Max have been saying. Maybe it is the way he expresses his thoughts. Maybe it is because of my understanding of the gospel from my recent studies of the book of Romans. Maybe we all need to apply Phil 2:2,3. We don't always have to have the last word. Whatever it is, I know it does not line up with Max's theory. Dan, Cindy, Patti, Bill Thomp., Rayna, Lori, (possibly some others) have expressed my thoughts and understanding of the gospel. Let me hasten to say I do appreciate Max and his contributions. While he is NOT saying we are saved by works, it can be INTERPRETED as though he is saying it. There is just something that does not ring clear. Max, you are much loved! May the grace of the Lord and Savior be with you. I have got to go now. Grace and peace to you. BMorgan | ||
| Max |
Dear BMorgan, NIV Philippians 2:1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Do you think I need to take responsibility for how others interpret me? I am sorry you are sad. And I appreciate the sincerity of your gestures. God's grace to you always, Max of the Cross | ||
| Cindy |
Hi Rayna, I haven't said hello for a long time! Hope your day goes well. I, too, know of the feelings you express... I pray that we may ALL REST in Christ alone today; and especially, extend His All-Surpassing GRACE to each other!! "He Himself is our PEACE!" (Ephesians) Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
Max, What's going on with all the posts about it's BEEN a delight trading scripture!? I stumbled out of bed this morning, groggily had my coffee, orange juice, and read my Oswald Chambers... still half asleep... Then I checked into here and saw all your posts. That woke me up! I actually had wrote you a post last night but decided to sleep and pray on it...and just saved it for now. I will try to get back later. Unfortunately, I've got to get ready immediately for work... I hope your posts don't mean you're checking out of here. Like Rayna said, you are much loved! Grace always, Cindy p.s. I would like to e-mail you sometime; if you're ever inclined, my e-address is: cafearing@juno.com | ||
| Billthompson |
Max, I am trying to sort through the confussion here myself. I have carefully read all your recent posts and share the confusion that others have expressed. Perhaps we need to go way back to the basics and be sure we are all singing from the same page. Observation #1 One point I noted in one of your posts is that you seem to be worried that people (many of us formers) will abuse God's saving grace and in so doing make a good argument for finger pointing SDAs. They can look at a loose living former SDA and say, "See what happens to those who leave the 'remnant' church." With all due respect, we will never please many of those current SDAs. As a former SDA who still observes the 7th day sabbath wrote to me, "You could lead thousands to Christ, feed, house and clothe the poor, win the Nobel Peace Prize and current SDAs will still look down on all that you stand for because you have given up the Sabbath." Helping them keep their focus on works of merit is NOT what they need and certainly not what we need. They need to turn their eyes upon Jesus...turn their eyes upon His saving grace. Observation #2 This may be the most important point. Please answer this question directly with a "yes" or "no", rather than Scripture you "think" makes your point (taken out of context, in some cases, verses can seem to say one thing when they are not in fact saying that at all). Here is the question, Max: Do you believe a person who has truly been, born again, sealed with the Holy Spirit, a new creature in Christ, can this person lose their salvation? I'll wait for an answer to this question before proceeding any further. Again, a simple "yes" or "no" as to your beliefs in this one specific area. A Sinner Securely Saved For All Eternity By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Morgan, No one is perfect! That is why I for one, have a Savior!! When stuff like this is continually tossed around: "By Rayna on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 05:32 am: Sure Max, hope you have a sinless day!!! Rayna" I rest my case as to personal attacks!!!!!! If you go back far enough on this forum, you will see that some of the same people involved in the twisting of what others and I have said are attacking the "person and motives" of Max and still twisting what I have said. Here is the way I see it, Max used to dialogue with the ones involved here and his words were twisted to something he never said. The decision apparently was made to not dialogue with his own words and use scripture for his answers! Now that scripture is not to be "messed" with, the messenger is "messed" with!! Can you justify Rayna's antagonistic and sarcastic comment: "Sure Max, hope you have a sinless day!!! Rayna" Can you justify her twisting of what I said yesterday: "By Rayna on Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:57 pm: Maryann, It is not my job to tell you what you believe." I never asked her what I believed!? I simply asked her to tell me where I differed with her post and where it was! Patti and Rayna have disregarded most of my questions? I don't know why? They have been simple questions too! Rayna comes back with: "It is not my job to tell you what you believe." I have tried my best, and have asked God to be with me in my posting and keep my spirit wholesome. I have made every effort to not attack anyone. I'm not a watchdog for anyone either! But when I see these types of things going on, I just am unable to keep my fingers quiet? I have told both Patti and Rayna that I'd love to e-mail with them? No response. I will re-post the mule story here: By Maryann on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 03:18 am: Hi Guyz, Let me explain how I understand the workings of a twenty mule team. The lead mules set the pace according to the directions of the wagon master. There is just one purpose in mind for the entire team and that is to get the borax where it's going. As the lead mules move along the straight road, the rest of the team just plug along being careful not to step on and bloody up the heals of the mule in front or kick the teeth of the one behind them. One would think that the lead mules have it made! Think again! They have the wagon master to directly deal with! And they have the responsibility to not harass the mules behind them. The straight road is just a short bit of the road to town. There is a mountain to climb and many curves to navigate. As the mules lean into their harnesses, they do it in unison, each pulling their own part of the load. Then come the curves! Yikes!!! As the lead mules come to a left turn, they have to swing WIDE, the left mule's stride shortens a bit and the mule on the right lengthens a bit. This compensation works it way all the way to the back, with the mule closest to the wagon on the left side taking very small steps and the one on the right only slightly longer. If the mule next to the wagon wants to take big steps, he will bloody up the mules heels in front of him in turn get his teeth loosened up. If each mule pays attention to the goal/spreading the gospel, and to his job on the team, all will work smoothly and the goal/spreading the gospel, will be reached. I've seen dumb mules and even jackasses pull better than we have been lately!!!! We are supposed to be intelligent human beings filled with the Spirit of God! Yet the tromping of heels and kicking of teeth seems to be the focus rather than the goal/spreading the gospel! This is a plea....... Patti and Rayna, you both proclaim grace plus nothing = salvation so beautifully and I sincerely hope you continue with that! When one of you belt out a great grace message allow me to say, "wow, that was so clear! Thank you for sharing that." Then allow me to continue on with, "with that wonderfully put grace message that Patti or Rayna just posted, let me tell you some more good news! You now have the Holy Spirit to guide your life, totally and absolutely separate from your salvation and because of your salvation, your life will change if you let Him lead!" Colleen, Bruce, Max, myself and others might post a testimony of how the Lord has changed some aspect of our lives. Rayna and Patti, you could compliment our testimony with, "what a powerful testimony to the power of God to work a miracle in your life! To all, do you realize that the reason (Maryann) had such a turn around in her life was that she learned of the magnificent work that Christ did for her. She learned that the grace of God + nothing was her only salvation. Praise God for sending His Son to this earth for the un-conditional redemption of all of us sinners by the simple act of believing in His finished work!" We really are not mules, we are children of God and are given minds to use. Lets vow to be smarter than the dumb mules and pick up and assist each other in our endeavor to help, give comfort and present the gospel to the hurting without subjecting them to get sprayed by the blood and manure we selfishly and thoughtlessly hurl at each other! I don't remember seeing Rayna or Patti attaching "lawlessness" to grace or salvation and I don't remember seeing Colleen, Bruce, Max, myself or others attaching works, fruits of the Spirit etc to grace or salvation! Go to the mule team thou confusion maker and learn their ways. Maryann | ||
| Graceambassador |
Am I paranoid? As the paranoid told his therapist: "If you don't feel that people are out to get you is because you're not PAYING ATTENTION". Under the risk of sounding cruel, paranoid, simplistic (I'm not that last one, believe me) let me issue A RED ALERT: STAGED DISCUSSION WITH CURRENT SDA'S For the third time IN MY COUNT, someone, who in the past engaged in a discussion with a current SDA, and vehemently opposed him or her, and by all accounts, WON such discussion and EARNED the confidence of a great part of this group, now, all of a sudden writes things that are totally opposite of what he/she wrote when discussing with the CURRENT SDA. Are such discussion staged to earn our confidence? Are such people really existing people or just aliases? Is this person discussing with him/herself using different aliases just to win the confidence of the members of this forum and then INFILTRATE with the CULT'S doctrines and spread discord among FAF's members? I have no business in interfering with the FAF's issues since I am not the one CALLED BY GOD to provide this vehicle of teaching and this ministry of helps. I do HAVE, HOWEVER, not only the right, but also the DUTY to prove the spirits, whether they be of God once I perceive something dubious. So, here is the warning: Colossians 2:8 IN CONTEXT WITH: THE WHOLE BIBLICAL TEXT THE WHOLE BOOK THE PURPOSE OF THE BOOK THE TARGET AUDIENCE THE AUTHOR INTENDED TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE THE AUTHOR INTENDED TO COVER THE PROBLEM THE AUTHOR INTENDED TO SOLVE: Beware lest any man spoil through phylosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world and NOT AFTER CHRIST! Deception can be accomplished by quoting scriptures out of the context described above. _______________________ Max Do not thank me sarcastically Max, be nice to me as I have been to you. I have not exchanged scriptures with you! What is the purpose? I'd rather do it with MY PET PARROT! He memorized the scriptures and quotes them in two different translations! Not to mention that even the devil quotes scripture! But I do not trust him the parrot or him the devil as a Bible teacher! (obviously this is an illustration...) I know a man who bought a brain surgery book and memorized it completely. He could quote out of it verbatum to any surgeon. Unfortunately, he could not find in his OWN HEAD the right itching spot. Why seek advicein brain surgery from such a man ? You've been good to this forum, but now, I will pray that I AM WRONG about your motives! Grace Ambassador | ||
| Patti |
BMorgan, It is so good to hear from you again. The only comfort I can give you is biblical: "Blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted." God is in charge, even though we may not be able to see it at times. He alone is able to enlighten us with the knowledge of His great mercy, and He will protect His Truth. God bless! Patti | ||
| Patti |
I've seen dumb mules and even jackasses pull better than we have been lately!!!! We are supposed to be intelligent human beings filled with the Spirit of God! Yet the tromping of heels and kicking of teeth seems to be the focus rather than the goal/spreading the gospel! This is a plea....... Just exactly what is your plea, Maryann? What do you want me to do? I have not engaged you in a direct confrontation at all, except of late when my every post, every word, every Scripture was refuted by Max (occasionally by you). Here are some questions for you. I would appreciate as direct answers as you can give: 1. What is it that you think I should do to keep the peace? Stop posting on the Gospel? If I stop preaching that we are saved only by the grace of God for the sake of the doing and dying of our Lord Jesus Christ, will that bring peace to the forum? Just the fact that there is so much conflict over the Gospel tells me that there is a great need for it. If you and Max think that I am wrong, then address wherein I am wrong. All Max does is bombard us with Scripture that often has nothing to do with what was posted. You do not like to quote Scripture, but that is the standard for me. 2. If you do not like my words, tell me why (specifically) and then back up your words with Scripture. You say I present the Gospel, I think your word was "beautifully," so what am I doing wrong? I anxiously await your answers. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Patti |
BTW, Maryann, You own Rayna an apology. Implication is in the eye of the beholder, and you are imputing evil to her words that is simply not there. | ||
| Terry |
Guys and Gals, This has gotten really ugly! Let's step back and pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, deliverance from pride, and show those SDA lurkers out there that they aren't right about what happens to us heretics that leave the "church." Terry |
