| Author | Message | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, Got a few things in Ezekiel that I'd like you to read then comment on your understanding of them and how they relate to us in A.D. How does this gel with Salvation by Grace alone? They are Ezekiel, chapters 18, 33 and 36:21-38 Thank you in advance:-)) ;););)......Maryann | ||
| Max |
Hi, Maryann, Why not you comment on your understanding first? Thanking you in advance, MC | ||
| Kelly |
Hi, I'm new to this forum and I'm also new to idea of questioning the Adventist beliefs. I have been an Adventist all my life and I had never had any reason to question the doctrines or beliefs. I was raised on Ellen White, I still read her writings, presently I read a couple of chapters of scripture a day and a chapter out of one her testimonies. But I'll be quite honest, I've never really seen the need to read scripture daily unless I was doing a Bible study group or something like that. About a year ago, a childhood friend of mine basically floored me with the information that the Adventist doctrines were a lie and she told me about the site "What Adventist Should Know", I looked at it because I have a lot of respect for this person. But frankly, I was not impressed with what I saw, it just seemed to me to be someone that decided they didn't want to follow the Biblical "rules" anymore and had found a way to "make it ok" with scripture. And, I told my friend this. After that we had some discussion over email, she would propose the idea that what SDA taught was false and offer scripture to support it and then I would counter with what I was raised and taught as an Adventist. She then would tell me that was a "typical Adventist" response and then leave scriptural support for her viewpoint. I was not impressed!!! Our friendship was suffering from our discussions, so we both agreed not to discuss religion anymore. A few weeks ago, we began to touch on "God" again. She informed me that she was going to ask to have her name removed from the church records. I told her that would not be a good idea. She then told me that she was not an Adventist and that she would never be one again, so why should she leave her name on the books? My frame of reference all comes from the background of Adventism. I'm in the remnant church and it bothers me that my friend wants to leave it. However, I don't have an answer to two of the questions that she left me with. She doesn't want to discuss it over email anymore, she says that email has "no tone" and that what she writes me and visa versa can be read in a different tone than written and that is why we ran into difficulties before. Here are thetwo questions that she left me with until we could talk, 1. Don't you think that it is odd that a church that does not ordain women as ministers (and they shouldn't)has a women prophet? 2. Can you show me a scripture that says that the seal of God is Sabbath observance, if this is to be the final test for salvation then God would not leave us without proper information concerning it, it would not be generalized it would be specific, do you know a scripture that says this? That is the last thing I have heard from her. I really don't understand. I told her that Ellen White was only inspired by God because people weren't reading the scripture for themselves. She answered me something like this: If God's people weren't interested enough to read scripture then why would they read her words either? My answer to her was: because it's easier to understand in E.W's words. I suppose you are wondering why I'm posting this on a former adventist site. It's because I already know the Adventist answers to the questions and I want answers from a different perspective. My friend and I are too "emotionally" connected, and I have no emotional connection to any of you, maybe this will be beneficial. I am a loyal Adventist, I'm loyal to the organization and to E.W., but I am curious. How can my friend keep saying how much more she loves God than she used to? How can she keep saying how much more peace that she has? How can her fears about the future have subsided with her new religious philosophy? She was in the remnant church, why did she not have any of these things while she was there? Why did all these things appear after she left? She told me that she no longer has any fear of death? She told me that she enjoys the scripture!! I haven't studied scripture regulary, I've always felt like I knew enough already. But I don't have the assurance that my friend talks about, I don't have the confidence that she does, I pretend that I do, but deep down inside I know that I don't. I believe in Christ and I know that he died for me, I believe that, but I don't ever tell anyone, outside the church, what I really believe. And frankly, I guess I don't read scripture because I don't want to know anymore, I don't want to find out what else that you have to give up and not have because you believe in Christ. And, I suppose I don't go tell, nonAdventist about the Sabbath, because I don't want them to have to be accountable for it, if they don't accept it. How can a person that was raised in the true church leave it, obviously most of you have? I'm baffled by this. I really think that my friend is deceived. She was married to a non Adventist and now she's become one because it's just convenient. But how did she lose the fears that she had as an Adventist? Do false doctrines bring a false peace or do false doctrines only bring fears? I'm in the place of fears, is it because I know the truth and I know enough to be afraid or is it because I don't know the truth and I don't have the security that I should feel because I believe a lie? Most of you already know the answers that my background gives me. One being that the people that I am proposing these questions to are like most of the world and can not be trusted because "they don't keep the Sabbath and there is no truth in them". My friend has thrown away all the religious unbringing that she was raised with. She has become just like the rest of the world and she is telling me that what I believe is wrong. I don't think that I can throw away everything that I was raised with. My family has been in the Adventist church for four generations!! Can any of you give me some starting place, some place to begin to understand. I really don't understand how the peace and the confidence that has eluded me all these years has supposedly been obtained by my best childhood friend AFTER she left the true church. Kelly | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, As you can well imagine, my understanding and knowledge of the OT is about zip. As an SDA, I was taught the OT through the Bible Stories and absorbed the skewed view of SDAism. It was 25+ years ago since I even read the Bible Stories. Since becoming a Christian in the last couple years, I have spent my time in the NT with the exception of a bit in Psalms, Proverbs, Genesis and Exodus. My knowledge needs to increase in the NT before I will be very interested in re-unfolding the OT. As to the chapters in Ezekiel. My friend read them to me last night in response to my question about sin, salvation and how they affect ones relationship with God etc and so on. You know the drill. For instance: Ezekiel 18:24...."But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds that he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die." Now, the gist of all that my friend read (according to him) led to the conclusion that if you fall into sinful ways, you will be judged by those sins, even after you were saved, and your salvation lost. You asked my understanding so here goes: In the days before Jesus lived and died on this earth, God's people had a shadow to look forward to. Their actions etc were very critically monitered by themselves and possibly even family members and priest's. Blood flowed like a river from all the the sacrifices that were continually made for the sins they committed. In the days that the shadow (Christ) was in the future, it seems to me that all this required "righteousness" was a rather subjective (that may be the wrong term) thing and they looked inwardly at themselves for the evidence of righteousness. The reason for this, in my mind, is because of the fact that Christ was a "shadow" and was not something that could be clearly seen or understood and the "finished" atonment was STILL in the future. They had to deal with all this daily and yearly repeating atonment and sacrifice. Since Jesus lived, bore, paid for and took away every sin in the world (applying to those that believe and accept the gift), died, ascended, is sitting at the Father's right hand, we have a very "clear" Savior to look to. He is no longer a shadow!;-)) He is an absolute reality. Our reality. Our eternal hope and salvation. As my favorite little sermon, John 3:14-18 and 5:24 says in paraphrased form....He who believes HAS eternal life and is NOT condemed. He who DOES NOT believe is condemed. In other words, the condemnation or judgement of the righteous is behind them and the judgement of the wicked is in front of them. So, looking at the Old Covenant-OT days as opposed to the New Covenant-NT days, there is an eternal difference. OT Christians had to keep placing their sins in an earthly lamb to maintain their salvation. NT Christians have the priviledge of accepting that their sins have already been placed on the eternal Lamb of God and vaporized.;-)) This is the best I can say that I understand this? Your turn;-))))))))) SOG......:):):)Silly Ol' Gal (????) Nahhhh | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Kelly;-)) Welcome!!!!! Great to have you here! How did you find us?;-)) I'm sure we do understand your background as we too have essentially the same with some variations as can be expected. I guess we were writing at the same time and if have read my, above unrelated to you post, you can see that my Bible knowledge came from the Bible Stories. The rest was EGW. As to your first question: "1. Don't you think that it is odd that a church that does not ordain women as ministers (and they shouldn't)has a women prophet?" I have wondered that too. My thought now is that there seems to be a difference between a prophet and a minister in the Bible. But, really, that is at the bottom of the list or not even on the list of questions that I would ask an SDA! I personally see no eternal value to that question. Now the other question: "2. Can you show me a scripture that says that the seal of God is Sabbath observance, if this is to be the final test for salvation then God would not leave us without proper information concerning it, it would not be generalized it would be specific, do you know a scripture that says this?" That is a great question and has eternal value in my mind!;-)) I don't believe that there is one Biblical grain of sand to base the Sabbath being any kind of a seal. My Biblical rock that I base that on is: Ephesians NASB 1:13...."In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise," And: Ephesians NASB 4:30...."And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." This to me, says that were are sealed by the Holy Spirit and not by the Sabbath or anything else we can do. I'm so glad you dropped in. I'm looking forward to more conversation with you. My 'puter's have been down for a while and I will change the e-dress that I have been previously posting as it got me a virus from a dear, deluded soul;-(( I have a ton of things to do today but will think of a good e-dress and post it in the next hour or two and would love to hear from you on e-mail too;-)) A new friend!?:-)))).....Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Kelly again, Here's my new e-dress christyoureternallife@hotmail.com BTW, what end of the country do you hail from, East or West? And are you over or under 40? Just helps me talk to you;-)) if that's okay. :):):)........Maryann | ||
| Valm |
KELLY, Your post has been the most compelling post I have read since starting to come here in November. My heart, and many others who read your post will go out to you in our thoughts and prayers. You are on a journey that will lead you to the peace you long for. I agree the SEAL OF GOD is not the Sabbath. It is his Holy Spirit given to all of us!!!! It is not what we do it is what HE DOES. My first suggestion to you is to read the stories of others found on the FAF. Also go and read NEW COVENANT CHRISTIANS. This can be found by going to the links of this site and clicking on to Grace Place. This little book will tell you why your friend is so much more peaceful now than she was as an SDA. This is not the work of Satan which you have been so conditioned to believe, it is truely the result of the peace she has found in RESTING IN CHRIST JESUS her TRUE SABBATH REST!!!!!! Coming from a background of four generations of Adventists and approaching this takes much bravery on your part. You are not alone, Jesus is with you every step of the way. And it is my hope that we here at FAF are tangible proof of his love for you. You say so many things in your post that tell me that you are not in a LOVE relationship with GOD but feel somewhat held prisoner. I equated this at one time as being in a loveless marriage only to survive. Our relationship with God should be as wonderful as the allegory in Song of Solomon. I too for many a long time could not read my Bible out of fear of finding one more thing I had to do. (My Aunt wisely told me that was because I read my Bible like an Adventist) And I didn't want to give the "truth" to others lest they be held accountable to the existence I was living under. But now I am a FREE WOMAN in CHRIST!!!! Read Galations 4 and join us as being children of "the free woman" I wish now to read my Bible. It Jazzes me up. I am so excited that life is truely meant to be lived more abundantly. Take hold of what is rightfully yours Kelly. We are here to support you. Valerie | ||
| Max |
Hi Kelly, I just read your post and I'm puzzled as to why you have come to FAFF. Can you explain in one sentence why? In Christ but not in White-ism, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Maryann, Christ has never been a shadow. Christ cast a shadow, and it was the law. Imagine a tall lone palm tree standing alone in a very flat desert at sunrise. The shadow of this tree stretches out about half a mile. You run across the shadow, and what do you notice? You notice that it's pointing in the direction of the rising sun. Now you follow the shadow for half a mile and what do you run into? The tree! The law is the shadow. Christ is the tree. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, Thank you for the correction of what I said about Jesus being a "shadow!" Funny thing, your correction was a surprise to me because I didn't think I said that!!!!!! Sooooooooo, I looked;-))! You were right, I did say that!;-(( The only thing I can imagine is that God guided my fingers to write that so as to allow you to correct that and use that wonderful illustration about the palm tree! That was great! Anyway, I did understand in my mind (pointed head) that Jesus is/was NOT a shadow!!! But it sure did come out WRONG didn't it? Hebrews 10:1 is clear beyond a "shadow" of a doubt that the shadow is the law! Soooo, thank you again for bringing that blunder to my attention;-)))) Now that the shadow is set straight ....Can you shed some light on the Ezekiel thing I asked you. Now......You suggested I go first and comment on my understanding.....I failed miserably;-(( Soooo, please hover your fingers over the keyboard and take YOUR turn at it;-))) Hmmmmmmm, I still can't believe that I wrote it like I did!!!!! But, I'm very glad that I did! That "palm tree" illustration will forever cause me to be crystal clear on this issue! Waiting for your comments! :):):).....Maryann | ||
| Max |
Maryann, You can hug a palm tree, but you can't hug a shadow. As far as Ezekiel is concerned, you've given me a long assignment. I'd prefer to deal with specific issues. ^^The gist of all that my friend read (according to him) led to the conclusion that if you fall into sinful ways, you will be judged by those sins, even after you were saved, and your salvation lost.^^ Under grace there is never a time when redeemed Christians are without sin, but we have a God who forgives us our sins when we ask. If we ask forgiveness we are not judged by our sins, but rather by Christ's robe of righteousness that we are wearing. I don't think it's possible to lose one's salvation. If a Christ-claimer falls away, that falling-away is evidence that the Christ-claimer never had the Christ he claimed he had. Or, to put it another way, Christ NEVER knew him. So salvation can never be lost, because God knew from before the foundations of the earth were laid that that particular Christ-claimer was going to do what he did -- proving that his salvation wasn't real after all. In a marriage anullment there never was a legal marriage in the first place. So one party of a marriage that was annulled cannot claim the legal benefits of a true marriage -- say an inheritance if the other party of the union dies. (I'm not talking about "common law" marriage here.) Conclusion: If you are truly married to Christ, then the union can never be broken. But if you only claim to be married to Him and your life proves that you weren't, then it's more like an anullment -- you were never really married in the first place. Does that help? Max of the Cross | ||
| Maryann |
Hmmmmmm, thank you. I have more questions but will be more specific. Does Ezekiel 18:24 mean that it was a subjective thing BC? Does it mean that under that OC, a righteous man could loose his righteous standing and be cast away for eternity or at least flail back and forth between saved and un-saved? This inquiring mind wants to know. I have little knowledge of the OT as my only background in it is the Bible Stories etc. I believe I understand the plan of salvation for us. I guess that my real question, due to ignorance, is whether the pre-cross plan of salvation was different. Next time you ask me to go first in my comments, be ready to mop up the mess. You are doing well:-)))))) Thank you! Maryann | ||
| Kelly |
Valm, Thank you for your reply, you seemed to have been the person that "got the message" I had hoped to convey. I really don't understand how a person that was raised in the SDA church has to leave the church before they really experience a relationship with Christ. I have "worn the mask" for 30+ years that says I have a relationship, but the reality is: my relationship with Christ can not be described like my friend who has left Adventism. How can this happen? If the SDA church is the remnant church, then why are the people within the church so devoid of a personal relationship with Christ. No one that I personal know has this relationship. We all read the Spirit of Prophecy that is supposed to reach us where scripture could not, we all keep the Sabbath, we all abstain from unclean foods, we all wear happy faces at church and we all pretend that everything is great, but the reality is that we aren't growing spiritually. Why is the remnant church so dead??? I don't understand. But I also don't know how to leave behind all this "information" I grew up with!! I have had plenty of weeks where I didn't go to church simply because I didn't feel like playing the "everything is wonderful" game. Thank you, Valm, for your post. I would appreciate your prayers on my behalf. At the moment I don't know if I could handle the truth if it were to lead me away from the SDA church, I have so many roots there! Kelly | ||
| Max |
Hi Maryann, Still hugging that palm tree? Salvation after the cross is by faith alone, and it cannot be lost. Salvation before the cross was by faith alone also, and it could not be lost either. Ezekiel 18:24 NIV "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. This is a physical death commanded by the law of Moses. Ezekiel was drawing lessons from the Law of Moses. If you picked up sticks on the Sabbath you had to be stoned to death. To better understand Ezekiel's spiritual lesson, let's look to NIV 2 Peter 2:20-22: If they [false teachers and prophets]have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs ar true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." You see, God knows in advance which dogs are going to return to their vomit and which sows are gonig back in the mud wallow. This text not proof that these evil men lost their salvation. It is proof that their salvation wasn't real. For what they were going to do was known by God before the foundations of the earth were laid. They freely chose to do what they did, and yet God knew in advance which way they were going to choose. This seems to me the closest we can come to understanding predestination. But let's be careful not to judge God, since his thoughts and ways are higher than ours as the heavens are higher than the earth. There is much mystery here, since although there is no darkness in God at all, He is still CLOTHED in "thick darkness." Faith and not work is still key, however. Hebrews 11 refers to a liar who was saved (Abraham), an adulterer and murderer (David), a liar and whore (Rahab), a traitor to his own people (Samson). They were ALL saved by faith alone in an act that had yet to occur -- the cross. How do we know they weren't saved till the cross? Hebrews 11:39-40 NIV: "These were ALL commended for theif faith, yet NONE of them received what had been promised. God had planned something BETTER for us so that only together with us would they be MADE PERFECT. Hence all of the elect -- past and future -- were made perfect (righteous and sinless) by a single act on the cross. And in the sense of God's eternal predestination none of the elect can lose salvation. This is your assurance: that you are among the elect, the chosen. One who grieves the Holy Spirit is giving evidence that Christ NEVER knew him/her from before the foundations of the earth were laid. MC | ||
| Kelly |
To Max: You asked me "why are you here?" I am here because I already know all the typical Adventist answers to doctrines that oppose their own. I don't understand how a devout, "raised in it" Adventist that has been active in leadership in the church for all their adult life can leave the church. I suppose that I would like you all to walk me through a Bible Study that is not from the Adventist viewpoint. I don't understand how an Adventist walks away from the Sabbath. I know how Adventist prove the Sabbath, but I don't follow how my childhood friend sees that the Sabbath isn't an issue anymore. And, I don't understand how people that don't keep the Sabbath can have a better relationship with Christ than people that I am familiar with inside the SDA church. This doesn't make sense. The members of the remnant church should have the BEST relationships with Christ, not just the most restrictive relationships. Why does my friend enjoy her time with God, and why is it just something that I have to do? Can you guys answer any of these questions for me? I get the idea that you are suspicious of my motives for posting here. I can assure you that I am not here to argue or cause any form of dissension, I simple want answers from a different perspective than the Adventist answers and I don't have any non-SDA friends to ask. Except for the one person I've already mentioned and it seems that no matter how we approach it we end up mad at each other. I think she is lost (although I don't tell her that) simply because from my SDA frame of reference that is my system of thinking, that's what I've been raised to think. And she thinks I'm deceived. You get angry when your close friends imply these things. I need some impersonal contacts that have this same background as my friend so that I may objectively study this, instead of being so subjective. Is that ok? Can you walk me through this just like you would someone else that you were trying to share your viewpoint with? Kelly | ||
| Kelly |
Maryann, I'm in my mid 30's, I grew up in the deep south and now live in the NW. What about you? Kelly | ||
| Patti |
Kelly wrote: Can any of you give me some starting place, some place to begin to understand. I really don't understand how the peace and the confidence that has eluded me all these years has supposedly been obtained by my best childhood friend AFTER she left the true church. Kelly, please allow me to start by saying you don't have to leave the SDA church in order to find the peace and confidence of the Gospel. I am communicating with several SDAs on other forums that are thoroughly grounded in the Gospel, who know exactly from Whom their salvation stems, and that He will save them to the uttermost. You asked for a starting place. And I am going to give you one: The book of John. Spend some time in this Gospel alone for awhile. Notice how many times (over and over again) Jesus Himself says, "Whoever believes in me has eternal life." When I was an SDA I skimmed right over those passages. I took them completely for granted. Sure I knew that whoever believes in Jesus would inherit eternal life, but I added a lot of stuff to what "believing" really meant. When the Gospel found me, it was like scales fell off of my eyes. I was amazed to find out that Jesus REALLY meant what He said: Whoever believes that His life and death and resurrection is fully sufficient for his/her salvation WILL BE SAVED. Jesus added no addenda, no fine print, no codiciles to this promise; why do we? The Gospel is the only thing that offers peace with God and rest from working our way to heaven. Jesus Christ has triumphed over sin and death! We can know with assurity that our salvation is secure. NOT because we are worthy, but because HE is worthy; because HIS life and HIS death were perfect and accepted by God as full recompense for our sins. This was shown to the world when Christ arose from the dead. He ascended to the place of the greatest majesty and glory in the universe: The right hand of God the Father. He has triumphed! Our salvation has been secured! We need no longer live in the swamps of uncertainty because our salvation is not based upon what we do, but upon what HE DID. God bless you in your studies. Please feel free to write me privately if you wish. drpatti@msn.com Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| Cindy |
Kelly, Welcome...I'm glad you have posted. :-)) I would encourage you to just take it slow. REST in the knowledge of the All-Sufficient Grace of God for you! His Spirit WILL guide you into the real "truth" which is not found in a "remnant" denomination, but in the TRUE REMNANT, JESUS!--who is the embodiment of all TRUTH. Jesus HAS GAINED ACCESS for you! by his PERFECT LIFE, His DEATH, and His RESURRECTION for you! into the very presence of God. You hold Everything you need when you hold onto Him! You wrote: "I guess I don't read scripture because I don't want to know anymore, I don't want to find out what else that you have to give up and not have because you believe in Christ." I respectully submit that it is just the opposite! We GAIN things by believing in Christ. Wonderful things like Peace, Contentment and especially Confidence! I am surrounded by Adventist relatives also; until recently have been a pastor's wife. I know the fears involved in questioning. But remember, that PERFECT LOVE (JESUS!) casts out fear! Make Him always your focal point! The various doctrines will become clearer to you if you make the Gospel, Christ Crucified for you!, the foundation of everything. It is exciting to see how Jesus really is enough! He is the Truth that will set you Free... Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Dear Kelly, ^^I really don't understand how a person that was raised in the SDA church has to leave the church before they really experience a relationship with Christ.^^ I had a saving relationship with Christ while I was a member in good and regular standing of the SDA church for many many years. And I know others who have also. Dale Ratzlaff, for example. My relationship with Christ got me into trouble many times before I finally said good-bye. My membership is still there -- to the best of my knowledge -- but it is utterly devoid of any meaning. My meaningful membership is in heaven, which is under our feet as well as over our heads. If you are being led out, it is the Holy Spirit who is DRIVING you out, troubling your mind, giving you cognitive dissonance. Praise God! Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Whoever believes that His life and death and resurrection is fully sufficient for his/her salvation WILL BE SAVED. Jesus added no addenda, no fine print, no codiciles to this promise; why do we?^^ We don't. |
