| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I'm curious to read others' reactions, too. I don't remember being "taught" how to act toward formers. I just remember learning that formers had rejected the truth and were lost. If, however, they left and went into the world, there was always a chance they would come back. If, though, they left and joined another church (a Sunday church) and claimed to find Christ, they were really lost. Going to church on Sunday was the mark of the beast. Merely leaving and living a life of sin left room to return. The main reaction to formers was superiority. The main attitude I saw toward anger and frustration was not so much a reaction to people who displayed those emotions but a CERTAINTY that anyone who left was hurt or angry. Period. If a person was neither, they were lying. They were angry or hurt whether they admitted it or not. Colleen | ||
| Bmorgan (Bmorgan) |
Jerry, Good questions. Adventists do not openly teach members how to act toward "formers" per se. However, there is a subtle but strong tone that people naturally display. EGW spirit rules. Years ago, they would act patronizing and "sweet" in an effort to win "formers" back to the TRUTH. "Formers," were not a threat. Many people left but refrain from fellowshipping with another church. However, with the widespread use of the information super highway, people are meeting "formers" who are believers and openly worship on Sundays. "Formers" challenge the veracity of the SDA doctrines and their confidence and Joy in Christ are threatening to those "left behind." Hence, they display the "True Spirit of Prophecy," judgemental, critical, rage and being irrational. In the past,the general feeling was, "formers" had sin issues so they were too uncomfortable to worship with the "saints". People like Canright, from the earlier times, Ford, Rae and Brimsmead in the 70s & 80s? were dismissed as misguided and arrogant people who should be pitied. Their influence though great, did not produce widespread mass exodus from the church at large. Many members, who have had heavy doses of EGW's writings naturally react with fear that "formers" will be lost because they worship on Sunday. They are well informed about the prophecies about conferences falling, and not one in twenty being ready to meet Christ. When I left, initially, I was not angry. I was happy to be rid of the tired, bruised and crushed spirit. I had just witnessed the worst ungodly behavior by some leaders that were inexcuseable. I felt divinely empowered with freedom from fear and was able to move on out without fear of loosing my salvation. I began to experience a heavenly joy that emboldened me. Some church members were solicitious toward me at first until they realized I was out for good, then they shunned me. However, as the time passed and the veil was ripped from my eyes, I felt ashamed, stupid, and depressed. Whether or not I express anger, I am accused of being angry at the church. I think it is their way of being dismissive and remaain in denial. Do I have reason to be angry? You bet I do? Should I be able to express it? Well, I literally "spit" less when speaking about adventism. I can even laugh more now than I used to when I think about it. Thank God for the freedom He gives. Bmorgan | ||
| Jerry (Jerry) |
Thank you, Colleen and Bmorgan. Everything each of you said makes perfect sense. Two words leaped out at me in your post, Bmorgan: arrogant, with respect to formers, and dismissive, with respect to Adventists. Arrogant is exactly the word my wifeís SDA pastor used to describe Desmond Ford in our conversation. Dismissive is a word I have frequently used in past arguments with my wife. I no longer participate in those arguments. Interestingly, I found myself experiencing anger and frustration as I discovered how damaging this denomination has been to my wife. I have since surrendered my anger to Jesus, an act I sometimes must perform daily. I have always found it interesting that Adventists apparently have ìpsychic abilitiesî and can KNOW that formers or non-Adventists are angry or hurt. Would you believe that my wife persistently insisted that I must have had some serious childhood trauma that I could not remember? I did a lot of soul searching on that. However, looking as hard as I could, and though I discussed this with my mother, sister, and a therapist, there was never a hint of that in my life. I have concluded, since my wife told me that members of her family severely abused her, that this must be either transference or assumption about those who did not have ìthe Truth.î | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
I remember growing up and every year at school I would put in a special request on the prayer list for my father. He did not go to church with us. I grew up all my life grieving because I knew Daddy would not be in heaven, because he would go to work on Sabbath morning. Now I look back and see that he loved Jesus, he just understood that was all you needed, but he also loved my mother and his mother and was not going to make discord in the family by making a big fuss about her taking us to church. As far as how I was treated when I went through my anger stage. I got very verbal and e-mailed one of Ellen Whites quotes about how if you would stop sinning then you would not be sick. My mother had just died of pancreatic cancer, I asked them if they believed that she died because she was a sinner? (She was a piller in the community and much loved by all). I called there church a cult. No one saw it was the pain of grief screaming out for comfort. They just ignored it, the paster never made contact with us. I don't think in their minds they can comprehend someone leaving the "truth". It is beyond their scope. They would pray for those who "backslid" and encourage them to come back. But to those who totally rejected the "truth" they ignored. | ||
| Bmorgan (Bmorgan) |
After I discovered the falsehoods the church taught and the clarity I found in reading scripture-without the influence of other denominations, I became confused and excused the pastors who were instrumental in my early indoctrination process. In my naivete, I reasoned they were ignorant of the falsehood or perhaps had made similiar discoveries like me and were now teaching differently and less legalistic. I had to opportunity to meet one of my favorite pastors. I was elated. Naturally,I joyfully began sharing with him my journey into grace and now knowing Christ as my "personal" Savior. Jerry, this man stopped me cold in my tracks. He was extremely patronizing. I assumed I was delicate and needed prayers to return. When I was insistent and implied I scrutinized the SDA theology and found it wanting in substance and truth, he said to me, "People (like me) come into the church with baggage from (family issues)then get disgrunted and leave." He mentioned the name of a person I knew who also told him "the same nonsense" about Grace alone. That person grew up in the church. Like you Jerry, I had to search myself. Throughout the years I knew the pastor, he would bragged about how good I was and knows my family is no worst of than his family. How could he say such a thing made me wonder. My conclusion from the many experiences I have had with those "left behind," is Adventists do harbor a deep resentment toward "formers" who are believers when they demonstrate any confidence about not returning to the church. The worst a "former" could ever do is to fellowship on Sunday and embrace the New Covenant. Bmorgan | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Until recently, this little SDA church here that I attended maybe 10 times in 4 years sent me bulletins every week. It really bugged me as I had already discussed at great length my convictions with the pastor and he neither refuted my claims not gave much of an argument, simply said he wanted to study and get back with me in a couple of weeks. I told him to read Galatians and John 15 before returning. That was the last I saw of him--a year ago. Finally a couple of months ago I wrote a nice letter saying that I appreciated the thoughtfulness but thought it would be appropriate to take us off of the mailing list since God had blessed us with such a wonderful church home and we would not be returning. I'm sure some of them think we're lost but that pastor, I doubt. When he was leaving my house he prayed with us and thanked God that we had become so close to Him through our studies. ???? I think they really are astounded when we are so SURE what we believe. They doubt, I know they do, I was one of them and the Holy Spirit is surely dealing with them, they have constant spiritual warfare going on, how could they have any peace? Seems the attitudes of the few SDA's I have contact with are changing for the better. Maybe I'm just naive. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Sabra, many SDA attitudes are changing. I am convinced that God is making the truth about Adventism accessible and clear, and he is calling to himself those who have hearts that want to know him. I believe that God consistently opens windows of truth and doors of obedience to each one of us. As long as we are willing to embrace the truth he reveals and walk through the door of obedience that truth opens for us, we continue to grow. Whenever we stop in front of one of those open doors and refuse to walk through it, our spiritual progress slows 'way down. God is patient with us, and he continues to nudge us and give us doors to walk through. These events are all individual, and before God we must make our decisions to act on truth in obedience or not. We have to love Jesus and his call on our lives more than we love the life we're used to living. I'm sure, Sabra, that your witness to your former pastor has left a mark on him and has sown a seed that may germinate and grow. And you're right about the constant spiritual warfare. Every act of submission to truth and obedience to Jesus, however, weakens the hold of Satan on our hearts. It will be interesting for you to watch the progress of that pastor and those church members you know! Colleen | ||
| Pathfinder (Pathfinder) |
I've been reading this topic since Steve got off the phone with his mother last Saturday (by the way, how's it going with the family, Steve?), and am interested in the way families are affected, and how they treat each other when they no longer share a belief system. I also find it fascinating to see how people react when they get disillusioned with Adventism and what they find to fill the void. My family has been fair ripped apart by The White Lie, spiritually speaking. My father returned to his pre-SDA origins and is now some kind of holiness, (although most of his theology sounds SDA, the main difference being he goes to church on Sunday). He's not too much into the charismatic aspect of the holiness religion, and has had terrible arguments with my aunt who left the SDA church and went charismatic almost overnight, casting out demons and suchlike. He also argues with his church members over the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, as some of them are "Jesus only" and other's are into the Trinity. Since my aunt and my dad can't talk without blowing up, she in turn picks religious fights with her sister, who left the SDA church but who isn't about to jump into another box. This aunt remains unchurched, declaring she'll read the Bible for herself and no old man preacher or (old lady prophet) is going to tell her what it says. My uncle remains Adventist. Somehow he has avoided the Adventist pitfall of getting all over the rest of the family, although I am sure he is praying for us without ceasing. He and my rabble-rousing daddy have developed a mutual respect for one another since they can exchange ideas without getting bent out of shape if the other doesn't agree. They pray for each other, which works out just fine. Me, I don't argue religion. My beliefs are private, between me and God. This policy has stood me in good stead over the years. It doesn't bother me that my uncle has remained Adventist, or that my aunt has taken up speaking in tongues as long as they don't crowd me. I do occasionally say something to my father when I think he's gone a bit too far, as Bible warfare can get real ugly. When they get to clobbering each other with their Bibles, it seems to me that something important is lost--such as caring and respect. There is a fine line between the sincere desire to share a truth and the urge to crush another with the winning argument. I will wind this up with a question that has occurred to me while reading you folks. Do you find it needful that your SDA family and friends should come to your way of believing? If they back off and quit bugging you about not being SDAs, are you able to accept them in their choice to ignore what we see as obvious and remain SDA? | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Pathfinder, You raise some excellent points. I especially agree with your point about "clobbering each other with the Bible." I think it is a real danger for us as former Adventists to fall into that trap. That is the method of "soul-winning" that we were taught. I frequently participate on another forum that involves SDA's and formers. Very frequently you can sense the lack of love as each side launches scriptural grenades back and forth. The problem is that casualties are the only result of that kind of warfare. Few (if any)people are won to Christ by "sound arguments." That is why the Adventist church has such a difficult time with retention of converts from evangelistic crusades. God is convicting me more and more that the only way to have an effective witness is to simply love people with a Godly love. I am finding that acceptance is an area where I have a lot of difficulty. But when you think about it, there is so much freedom in not having to be responsible for the decisions and choices that another person makes. That's between them and God, and God hasn't asked for my help in changing anyone. I'd like to thank Joel (who by the way has been strangely absent lately--I wonder why <smile) for recommending two books that have helped me tremendously in this area. The first is "12 Steps for Recovering Pharisees." The second is "Classical Christianity." I highly recommend both. Still Growing in His Grace Doug | ||
| Steve_R (Steve_R) |
Well, not much of an update about the family really. We talked for awhile a couple nights ago and they're still stuck on this kick that I'm lost and all this. Really it feels like they're just trying to lay a guilt trip on me because I think they're starting to see that they can't argue from the Bible and the Bible alone and show me error they believe I'm immersed in, so they've resort to just trying to bring out some sort of emotional response. I do think my mom at least has been investigating some of what I've said to hear and things I've suggested for her to read. I don't know so much about my dad's take though. My brother is bugging me that I should go to the local adventist church but I have no intentions of that. I've met the pastor and while he was a nice enough individual, I question his preaching. He's a big spouter of EGW. When I met him he couldn't even greet me without bringin her into it somehow so that shows what he puts stock in. Oh well, gotta go finish making my salsa so I'll wind this up for now. I'm glad to see this thread continuing, hopefully it will for at least a little longer. Steve | ||
| Janet (Janet) |
Pathfinder, I agree with Doug, I find your questions interesting, and feel the best sermon we can give is by the life we live. I have never been one to enjoy a conflict anyway. I don't feel that I should be out to change Adventism, and know there are many who are saved in that denomination. But, if any should ask...I want to be able to show from the Bible only, where my HOPE and CONFIDENCE is. Being saved, is the most important concern I have, and learning to walk a life pleasing to God. Of course, I am new to this, and am learning daily, from personal study/prayer and this forum, and realize I have a lot to discover yet. Steve, I am still keeping you on my prayer list too. :-) Be Blessed, Janet | ||
| Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7) |
A lot of this discussion about formers within an SDA family gets me thinking about my in-laws and how rooted they are in Adventism. I have found myself in my share of spouts with my mother-in-law and my wife that only within the last month have stopped. I agree that love is the only way we are ever going to be an effective witness. I don't doubt for a moment that my mother-in-law considers me lost because I rejected the SDA church, and while I have met any of her family members (they all live on the West Coast), I'm sure they would disagree with me too. I find myself worrying about what's being said to my wife by her family about my "belief system." She is constantly reminded about SDA "truths" from her mom and gets EGW quotes in her email daily. I do wonder though how much Sara takes it to heart. All summer we've been attending a church that meets on Sundays without any notable objection on her part. The Sabbath is furthest from her mind on Friday nights. What happens though when CJ gets a little older and he begins to understand who Jesus is? I fear the pressure that will be on me from my in-laws about teaching him the Sabbath. I love and respect my wife and her family, but what happens when theres a conflict of interest involving a third person's spiritual maturity? I know I'm rambling but to close my thought I believe that people, regardless of denomination or religion, are indeed impressed by how firmly we are set in what we believe. So long as we are founded on Christ and none other, we will always be safe in Him. Hey, maybe I answered my own question. Doug, good to hear that "Classic Christianity" was as helpful to you as it was to me. It truly is an excellent book. BTW, the baby's doing great =). He's already managed to poopy and pee all over his mommy and daddy, hehe. Don't be surpirsed to see some of my posts at unreasonable hours of the morning. =) In God's unending grace, Joel | ||
| Carol_2 (Carol_2) |
hi all! i've been gone a few days, went to "boy scout camp" in north georgia - had a great time but am in pain from the walking up and down hills all day and tired from lack of sleep (when do middle school boys sleep?) anyway, just one comment on something i read from earlier in the week - when i was first studying the egw issues and the sbth, and at that time thinking i was going to find the errors and prove it wrong, i was working at my church and asked one of the pastors what he knew about dale ratzlaff. his immediate response was that he was a very bitter man who had been really hurt by the church. sadly, at that time i trusted and believed what he told me (the pastor.) i don't know how many of you have listened to any of dale's seminars on tape, but you could not find a kinder, more respectful, gentler, tactful, humble, spiritual, and open-minded man anywhere! these sda's that make comments like that, i believe, don't know what the heck they're talking about, they're just repeating the rhetoric they've heard - it just gets passed on and on. really makes me sick! anyway, just a comment, back to reading (am still catching up on the forum!) love and prayers to all! carol | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Hey, welcome back, Carol! I know what you mean about the "bitter man" commentsóindeed, Dale is as kind and respectful in person as he sounds on tape, and there is no trace of bitterness in him or in his wife. They are the "salt of the earth", and they love the Lord visibly. We've found that Adventists generally don't know how else to explain someone's leaving if they've joined a "Sunday church". Since they claim their doctrines are all based on the Bible, they can't entertain the idea that people study their way out. They're left with excuses: "he was hurt," or "he was angry." It's not true, but Adventists have no idea how to deal with the truth of this matter without cognitive dissonance. So they create their own reality! And, Pathfinder, you brought up some really interesting points. I think a person can prove almost anything from the Bible if they use "proof texts". You're absolutely right; there's nothing you can say that will make a difference unless the person is willing to entertain a new idea. Really, the Holy Spirit has to lift the veil before they can "hear" the Bible. As 2 Corinthians 3:14 says, only in Christ is the veil taken away. We have a relative who once said that if they found out Ellen was false, they would leave God, too. They are that bound together in this person's mind. The same person has told us that the blessings for which we thank God in our lives are from Satan. We haven't figured out any good way to make ourselves understood, so we pray consistently for these loved ones, and ask God to help us treat them as he wants us to treat them. That treatment usually ends up looking like cheerful if superficial exchanges and the avoidance of discussion about theology, doctrine, or beliefs. By the way, Carol, you have my respect for going to camp with jr. high boys. They are a breed unto themselves! I can tell you when some of them sleep, however: English class! Colleen | ||
| Pathfinder (Pathfinder) |
Doug said "But when you think about it, there is so much freedom in not having to be responsible for the decisions and choices that another person makes..." This was one of the most freeing realizations I had when I left SDAism. When the Adventists come after me (and it is rarer these days) I remember that they are motivated by a belief that they MUST do this, that they are accountable for my lost soul. Remembering this makes it possible for me to respond with compassion when confronted with their obnoxious, and yeah, arrogant presentations. | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Dear Colleen, :-) Your statement above I've found to be so very true: "Adventists generally don't know how else to explain someone's leaving if they've joined a "Sunday church". Since they claim their doctrines are all based on the Bible, they can't entertain the idea that people study their way out. They're left with excuses: "he was hurt," or "he was angry." It's not true, but Adventists have no idea how to deal with the truth of this matter without cognitive dissonance. So they create their own reality!" A recent (July 2002) article in the North Pacific Union paper, the GLEANER, written by Michael Jones--who left Adventism for 16 years in 1983 following his divorce and who says he would have "probably" returned sooner if someone had invited him back--states: "In a Center for Creative Ministry's report, 'Why Do Adventist Quit Coming to Church?,' study after study cited the following reasons: (1) Divorce, (2) perceived impersonalness of church leaders, (3) unfulfilling worship services, (4) and lack of love, lack of fellowship, and fealing unaccepted by the church family." Note that there is no mention of studying oneself out of the Adventist theology. I know in my experience, especially in my most recent Adventist church, I was fortunate to be surrounded with "personal" and loving church Conference leaders and the fellowship and love of wonderful local church members. Yet it was the "cognitive dissonance" of trying to teach doctrines that I just could not believe anymore that caused me distress and eventual separation from attending Adventist churches. And there ARE churches of refuge, peace, and REST in CHRIST ALONE outside of Adventism! :-) I have been very blessed to have found one here... Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Cindy, it's so good to see your posts in the past few weeks; I've missed you! I'm so thankful you've found a wonderful church, and I completely understand your cognitive dissonance. I didn't leave because I was unaccepted or unfulfilled, either. My leaving was entirely because of the cognitive dissonance between Adventist doctrines and what I was discovering in the Bible. It became an issue of integrity. I didn't WANT to leave; I liked being an Adventist. I just couldn't justify staying when I no longer believed it. And now the reality of being in Christ and part of his body is amazing; it's nothing like the "fellowship" of Adventism. I've discovered that there really is peace. There really is resolution for those deep intellectual and spiritual questions that I couldn't resolve for so many years. Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Cindy (Cindy) |
Thanks Colleen! (and you, too, BMorgan, for your "hello" a week or so ago... :-), I've continued reading FAF the past year or so; just haven't got around to posting, obviously. :-) Blessings to your work here... Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Dennisrainwater (Dennisrainwater) |
Colleen, I so relate to what you mentioned above about an SDA saying that if Ellen White proved to be wrong, then God would have to go, too. My mom has said exactly that! It is so frightening that she has such a small picture of God. Another thought she attached that sentiment to was that if God was "cruel enough to burn people forever in hell", then she would reject that kind of god... Have you found any helpful thoughts to help point someone's mind toward a more accurate understand of God's sovereignty?? Or to help someone seperate God and Ellen?? This issue is bound to come up again sometime -- probably sooner than later, and I would love to have someone else's thoughts and experience to have mulled over before having to confront it again... Thanks, Den<>< | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
DennisóI really haven't come up with a good way to separate God from Ellen in people's minds. The best thing I know (but not always useful!) is to remind people that Ellen herself said, as she approached the end of her life, "Gentlemen, I give you this Book," as she indicated the Bible. Further, she called herself the "lesser light" leading to the "greater light". If an Adventist is truly going to honor Ellen's own words, they need to pursue the Bible as the ultimate, true authority. We all know, though, how they can rationalize that pursuit. I'm convinced that nothing can truly break that connection except the Holy Spirit. I pray every day for our relatives who are literally stuck holding onto a tradition that has defined them. It's kind of like a person grabbing an electrical cable, being electrocuted, and being unable to let go because the current is contracting their muscles. I wish I had a better solution, Dennis! But I guess, after all, prayer really is the most powerful solution. It does require our patience, however! God, though, has always fought his people's battles. He took Israel right out of the fray, over and over, and caused the enemy to destroy themselves. The battle is still His. We don't even know, most of the time, when or how he uses us for his glory. He still reveals himself and glorifies himself. Our work really is to pray! God's sovereignty didn't begin to jell in my mind until I had given up Ellen and had committed myself to walking in truth, whatever that meant and however God led me. So, by faith, I still pray. I even ask God to show me how to pray and for whom to pray, and I also ask him to help me see as He sees, love as He loves, and know what he wants me to know. Colleen |
