| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore |
And any and all comments more than welcomed on this that I'm posting from Rolent Mckenzie (I hope I have spelled his name right: >>Does Dead Really Mean Dead? Is man truly dead in sin and unable (and unwilling) to come to Christ? Or is man not totally dead in sin, but perhaps injured or mortally ill, with enough good in him to reach out to Christ for salvation? There is a prevailing belief in society today that people deep down are generally good and all that needs to be done is to present them the right data, make the right arguments, and get them involved in the right kinds of programs in order to make them into better persons. This prevailing belief has become very much a part of Christian gospel outreach in many places. Many Christians today who love God and seek to share the good news of the gospel with the lost believe that if they could just present the right data, make the right arguments, and appeal to that spark of good in the lost person, he will make that step toward Christ. He will make a profession of faith, say the sinner's prayer, or walk down the aisle to the altar. But such Christians often get frustrated and discouraged in their efforts. Why? Because they have bought into the idea that the lost have enough good in them to come to Jesus for salvation. In other words, they believe that "dead" does not really mean "dead." Ephesians 2:1-3 (NASV) "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath." This evening I want to present what God's Word has to say about man's total inability to do that which is pleasing to Him due to his deadness in sin. And I will seek to demonstrate why this Biblical truth is foundational to the gospel message, for how one views this issue will determine his view of the gospel and how it is presented. We are dead in sin because of Adam's sin. "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12) "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." (Psalms 51:5) We by nature totally lack spiritual good before God. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. (Romans 7:18) But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. (1 Corinthians 2:14) We are totally unable to do spiritual good before God. Ö The mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:7-8) Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin." (John 8:34) As it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks after God;" (Romans 3:10-11) But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6) Summary of the problem The spiritually dead man: cannot receive the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14) cannot love and serve God (Romans 8:7-8) cannot come to Christ (John 6:44) is the slave of sin and under its domination and power (Romans 6:16-23) This does not mean that every person is debauched and wallowing in gross and flagrant sin. Someone may be cultured, well-mannered, benevolent, educated and outwardly decent from a human perspective and yet be utterly dead spiritually and indifferent to the gospel. Hostility to God is often cloaked -- sometimes even by religion! What a dead person needs is life! He needs to be born again. Jesus said, "Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). But what does it mean to be born again? Being born again is the work of God where a spiritually dead soul is made alive. God implants a new, living, holy principle within the soul (a new nature). New -- in that it wasn't there before. Living -- because its presence will be felt. Holy -- because it acts to counter sin and inclines toward living a life that is pleasing to God. This work can be described as the giving of a new heart and a new spirit. The results: Recognition of our sinfulness and a humbling of ourselves (Ezekiel 36:31) A receptivity and sensitivity to the things of God (Ezekiel 36:26) Obedience to God (including positive response to the gospel) (Ezekiel 36:27) A new relationship with God (Ezekiel 36:28) No one is born again by baptism. No church ritual can bring spiritual re-birth. No one is born again by human "decision," nor by responding to an altar call. One may be religious, emotional, or knowledgeable and not be born again. The new birth is a radical work of God, done by His grace alone, that affects the heart, bringing a person from spiritual death to spiritual life. In the Bible God often makes use of secondary means to accomplish His purposes. He could have, if He wished, written the gospel message in the sky so that all may see it. But God in His sovereign will decided to makes use of the preaching of the gospel by Christians to raise the spiritually dead to life. The good news So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it. (Isaiah 55:11) I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. (Romans 1:16) So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. (Romans 10:17) And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. (1 Corinthians 2:1-5) What does this mean in relation to the presentation of the gospel? Salvation is completely of the Lord, not at all of our ability. Man does not help God to save him, since man is totally unable and unwilling apart from the grace of God to be saved. The gospel needs to be presented in a way that expresses man's true condition of total helplessness to save himself and his need of God's all-sufficient grace. The gospel must never be watered down in order gain decisions for Christ, for then the gospel proclamation would be done according to fallible human ability rather than by faith in the power of God to save the lost. The gospel needs to be presented in a way that glorifies God, making it a God-centered message with power to save rather than man-centered one that diminishes Jesus' role as a perfect Savior. The gospel can be presented with confidence because the results are in God's hands. He is faithful and will accomplish the conversion of people in His own perfect time. Praise His Name!<< With love in Christ Jesus our Lord, your sister in Christ, DtB P.S. I'm hoping that more posters and readers will come and post..:)) | ||
| Lydell |
Denise, so much of it sounds good. And yet it leaves out the part of "choose you this day whom you will serve" "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" "repent" and "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Yes, it is God's saving power, it is His grace, it is His abundant mercy, it is His work. But we are still told we have to make a choice to take hold of it. I don't think it comes by some spark of good in man prompting him to reach out. It comes by the wooing of the Holy Spirit striking a spark within us. But it still isn't going to happen, the flame doesn't leap to life without our answering by making the choice to accept the offer. God never forces Himself on us. God is not a rapist, He's a lover. But maybe that's too crude an analogy for some. | ||
| Sherry2 |
Both of you offered some very thought-provoking material. I enjoyed your material, Denise. And Lydell, I never thought of that at all - your analogy "God is not a rapist, He's a lover." Boy does that make an impact to a woman reading that. You are so very right about that. And yet the free will vs election war wages on. Frankly I have always found that extremes of the Scripture are so often taken when maybe it is balance we are to be seeking. It is interesting that I've heard the term hyper-calvanism again and again, and yet never hyper-armenianism...no no one says that...it's simply "heresy" the whole thing supposedly. But I do know God is in control, and my heart burns that all would come to Him. I'm thankful for a God that is not burdened by my questions or even my anger sometimes, and in all the questioning and anger, I still find myself coming to know that He is in control and loves us very much. All things will be revealed...I need only trust Him. And so I sing His praises, not knowing the answers to all things, but knowing the One who does. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Sherry2, I'm very glad to see you posting again. But first things first. I didn't write the above. The credit for that goes to Rolent Mckenzie not me. Please see the beginning few sentences prior to my pasting his writings on here. I just needed to confirm that you and others understand that it was not I who wrote that. Rolent Mckenzie gets the credit, of course after God. :) Anyhow, I read your posts on the other thread too and what an inspirational reading it was for me. Thank you! God is good and it is obvious that He is working in you! God Bless you abundantly with His Grace and Peace. your sister in Christ Jesus, DtB | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Was Christ dead in the tomb, asleep with no feelings, no thoughts? Not according to this text: Acts 2:24 "But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him". God raised Christ from the dead which resulted in--Christ being freed from agony. | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Since you brought it up, there is a lot of talk of Him preaching to people in hell and in Abraham's bosom and I am not at all familiar with any of this. I haven't gotten to it yet and I'm a bit, no, I'm VERY confused. From what little I have been able to study it is looking like people really were "asleep" before Jesus' resurrection or at least in some limbo pergatory or something, so that would explain Eccl. but not the rich man and Lazarus story (?????) | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
The Ecclesiastes text comes from a context of the author (Solomon, probably) discussing a wordly point of view regarding life and death without the hope of the Lord. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was a well-know Jewish understanding. The Jews believed that they went to "Abraham's bosom" when they died. The Old Testament is very vague about the condition of a person in death. 2 Timothy 1:9-10 says, "This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." Nothing really describes for certain what happened to the wicked and the saved before the cross. The fact that Jesus used the story of the rich man and Lazarus, however, suggests that at least they were not temporarily annihilated, and that they were not in the same place. Contrary to traditional Adventist teaching, however, we can't write off Lazarus and the rich man as "just a parable." I remember my surprise the time I heard our pastor say about this argument, "Jesus would not use a lie or something untrue to prove a point that was true." Of course. Ellen used those kinds of arguments (God held his hand over the mistake in the 1843 date so people would get readyÖ) God does not play those kinds of games. He is sovereign; he is true; he is truthful. He does not deceive us. Isn't it great to KNOW we can trust him and to experience his fathfulness?! Colleen | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Sabra, read this one.....Isaiah 14:9-11 This was written about the death of Belshazzar: "The grave below is all astir to meet you at your coming, it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you--all those who were leaders in the world" (How can something that has no consciousness greet something else that also has no consciousness?) "it makes them rise from their thrones--all those who were kings over the nations. They will respond, they will say to you, 'You also have become weak, as we are; you are like us. All your pomp has been brought down to the grave.." Sounds like communication to me!!! | ||
| Windmotion (Windmotion) |
I always thought the verse about dead people walking around after Christ died was interesting. What were these things? This is esp. confusing if you believe in soul sleep. I think it indicates a fundamental change from where dead people were before Christ died to where they went afterwards, but I don't know what the change was. --Hannah | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
I found several online articles written about clean/unclean foods. Interestingly enough, even though most agree that these were ceremonial laws which were fulfilled they also stated that the passage in Acts (which I quoted above) is not to be taken at face value. In other words, since this illustration does not agree with their perception of Scripture then it, like Lazarus and the Rich Man, is merely a mock illustration to illustrate a truth. | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
Great point, Lori. BTW, look at Genesis 9:3. After the flood God told Noah to "increase in number and fill the earth." He also said the animals would now be fearful of humans. Then he said this, "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everyuthing. But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it." (Gen. 9:3-4) God gave EVERYTHING to humans to eat after the flood. The clean/unclean restrictions were specifically for Israel for the purpose of underscoring to them that they were to be set apart from all other nations. They would have practices and ceremonies and prohibitions that other nations did not have, and the purpose of these sanctions was to continually illustrate to them that they were to be separate. In the new covenant God's people are set apart by the seal of the Holy Spirit. Dietary restricitons no longer mark God's people in any way. Praising God for making us his, Colleen | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
That's excellent Colleen, I never really thought about it that way. I think Rachel and Leah represent us and Israel, I'm more and more sure of a rapture and partly because of this story. Rachel was the favorite, but Jacob (Jacob right?) got Leah first and 7 years later got the first love. hmmmm We're really off the topic, huh? Did Jesus preach in hell? Who did He preach to? Do you know where this teaching comes from? | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
Oh, one more thing- Is it still required for the Jews to practice these things since they have not entered into the New Covenant? God said "They shall not enter into My rest" so are they still obligated to keep these laws until they see Jesus? | ||
| Colleentinker (Colleentinker) |
I've wondered the same thing, Sabra! Technically, I think they are. Practically, when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D. and the Jews were scattered, the practices became difficult, especially the sacrifices. The feasts, etc., though, are still required and are still practiced by the Orthodox. Of course, if they accept Jesus they don't have to do these things. But this question you raised is the same question Adventists should face. They claim still to be subject to the law. Technically, you can't pick and choose which parts of the law you're under. If you claim it, you will be judged by itóall of it. Praise God for freedom! Colleen | ||
| Violet (Violet) |
Does anyone know much about how Sabbaths were celebrated in Isreal? I thought they were not allowed to leave their tents on Sabbath. How did they transition to meeting at the temple--or did I read that wrong? | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Sabra, the text you are looking for is in 1 Peter 3:18-20 ".......He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit. Through (the Holy Spirit) also (Christ) went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built". "When God patiently waited" refers to the 120 years of evangelism prior to the flood. See Gen. 6. The "spirits in prison" are also referred to in Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4. | ||
| Lori (Lori) |
Violet; here is a list of "Sabbathkeeping requirements" that was posted by Jtree/Nov4,2000 1. THE SABBATH DAY HAD TO BE OBSERVED ON SATURDAY, THE SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK (Ex. 20:10). Sunday is not the sabbath! Sunday is the Lord's day (Rev. 1:10), the day of our Lord's resurrection and the commonly acknowledged day of public worship in this gospel age (I Cor. 16:2). But nowhere in the Bible are we commanded, or even permitted, to keep the sabbath day on Sunday. 2. NO WORK COULD BE DONE ON THE SABBATH DAY (Ex. 20:10). Works of necessity and of mercy were allowed. But no one was permitted to do any kind of work for himself. Those who want to keep the sabbath day must, every Saturday (not Sunday), (by the most lenient timetable) refrain from lighting a fire for cooking (Ex. 35:3), gathering wood for burning (Num. 15:32-36), carrying any burden (Jer. 17:21-22), travelling anywhere (Ex. 16:29), or doing any business (Amos 8:5). Anything personally profitable or pleasurable was expressly forbidden on the sabbath day (Isa. 56:2; 58:13; Ezek. 20:12, 21). The essence of sabbath observance was unconditional, all-encompassing self-denial. It was a ceremonial renunciation of self and a ceremonial dedication of one's entire life to God. As such, it was a picture of faith in Christ. 3. IN ADDITION TO THESE THINGS, ANY GENUINE OBSERVANCE OF THE SABBATH DAY WOULD NECESSITATE A RETURN TO THE CEREMONIAL LAW OF THE OLD TESTAMENT (Num. 28:9-10). The sabbath day cannot be observed without the offering of a double sin-offering, a double meal-offering, and a double drink-offering. And these offerings must be made in the temple at Jerusalem! There is one more point that cannot be ignored. 4. THOSE WHO INSIST UPON KEEPING THE SABBATH MUST ALSO DEMAND THE EXECUTION OF ALL SABBATH BREAKERS (Ex. 31:15). The very same law that required the observance of the sabbath required the death of those who violated the sabbath. If a person wants to live under sabbatical laws, he must be willing to stone to death anyone who breaks the sabbath.Do you know anyone who keeps the sabbath like this? Of course not! Not even the most strict Adventist or Russellite observes such a sabbath. And those who pretend to observe a Sunday sabbath do not even come close to the requirements of God's law regarding sabbath observance. Why do I refuse to observe a sabbath day? What can be wrong with setting aside the first day of the week and requiring God's saints to keep it as a sabbath to the Lord? We do not and must not observe a literal sabbath day for the same reasons that we dare not observe the Jewish passover or any other ceremonies of the law. TO DO SO WOULD BE A SYMBOLIC DENIAL OF THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST AS OUR REDEEMER, A MIXING OF WORKS AND GRACE IN THE AFFAIR OF SALVATION, AND A DECLARATION THAT CHRIST ALONE IS NOT ENOUGH TO SATISFY GOD AND MAKE ALL WHO TRUST HIM FOREVER ACCEPTED WITH GOD. Why do you seek to kill me for telling you the truth? Joshua | ||
| Sabra (Sabra) |
thanks Lori,what about after the flood? Doesn't really say hell does it? I'm still confused-no surprise there! ha! | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
Some of you may have been following the thread on "Freedom in Christ" that was taking place last week. If so, you may be able to relate to what I am about to say. I am thinking out loud again, so if I seem to be off base, someone please correct me. We learned last week (well, I learned last week, some of you knew already) that the marriage that Paul talks about in Romans 7:1-4 is our bondage to our sinful nature. His mention of dying to the Law siply meant that once our sinful nature is dead, we have no more need for the Law, so we die to it as well. We also said that Paul continues in Roman 7 talking about this war that is waging inside of him. In his spirit, he wants to do right, but in his flesh, he does wrong. He ends by saying who will deliver me from this body of death? I think this is a very significant point (as it relates to the state of the dead) which I will point out in a moment. In Adventism, we learned that human life is the combination of breath and flesh. "God breathed into man's nostrils, and he became a living soul." When a person dies, his breath leaves him, he returns to the dust of the ground and he ceases to exist until the resurrection. I think this theory has negative salvific implications. In Romans, Paul clearly points out that we have a spirit (with a will) and a body or flesh (with a will or propensity). These two are at war with each other. Jesus himself confirmed that in the Garden of Gesethmane (Mark 14:37,38)when he said: "Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Simon," he said to Peter, "are you asleep? Could you not keep watch for one hour? Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak." If you recall, Paul said who will deliver me from this body of death. In other words, who can deliver me from my nature--the part of me that is causing all the problems. The analogy that is often used is that of actually carrying a dead body strapped to your side and the decaying body beginning to eat away at the flesh of the living person. Develop the picture in your mind of you (your spirit) carrying around a dead decaying body (your sinful nature). Eventually, your sinful nature will begin to rot away your spirit. In Romans 8, Paul tells us that the sinful nature has been crucified in order that we can be joined to another. So the bond between the spirit and the flesh has been broken. Instead of being joined to the sinful nature, our spirit (which wants to do right) is now joined with Christ through the enabling power of the Holy Spirit. This is my new identity. The old me does not exist anymore! That is an important point. When Paul says I am a new creation, he is saying that now I am a combination of my spirit and Jesus. Now, after having become a new creation, it is still possible that I might sin, but it does not change who I am. Before, I was a sinner because my sinful nature had mastery over me and I did what came naturally. Now, that my sinful nature has been crucified and I have been risen again with Christ, I am a saint who happens to engage in sin, but a saint none-the-less. Do you see the difference? Now, here is how I relate this all to the state of the dead. If I use the Adventist model, which says that breath (air) + flesh = a living soul, and I say that the sinful nature (flesh) has been crucified, what is left to be connected to God? Nothing! In Adventism, one can never lose their identity as a sinner. I still have not done any degree of study on the state of the dead, but just this concept alone would seem to suggest that the Adventis model about the state of the dead is wholly inadequate. I am interested in other's thoughts on this issue and how (if at all) it relates to the state of the dead. In His Grace Doug | ||
| Doug222 (Doug222) |
I have been thinking a little more about my post from above and some additional thoughts came to mind. First, now I understand why in Romans 7:18 Paul says, "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.." Notice how Paul specifies his "sinful nature," implying that there is some other part of him--his spirit." This spirit desires communnion with God. Second, if you follow the analogy of being bound to a body of death (the sinful flesh), then you can see more clearly the application of Romans 11. When we died to our sinful nature, we must replace it with something else, otherwise we owuld cease to exist. That something would constitute the grafting into the olive tree, where we receive our nourishment. This is also consistent with John 15 which talks about abiding in the Branch. In the same way that the body of death produced rot and decay for our spirit, the Olive branch produces nourishment and life. When Adventist use the Genesis 2:7 account to describe life (dust + breath = soul) they are talking about man in his prefall state. At that time, he did not have a sinful nature, therefore, his body and spirit were in harmony with God. Also, he would have lived forver--death only entered the picture because of sin. After the fall, he inherited the sinful nature and death. So, it is the sin nature that causes death. If our sinful nature is crucified, and we are grafted into the vine, wouldn't that of necessity also then remove the curse of death and provide us the same eternal life that Adam had before the fall? Even Romans 8:22,23 says: "We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as "we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies." WHat I don't know is whether this theory is inconsistent with soul sleep. Any thoughts from others? In His Grace |
