Post Number: 2156
|Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 7:45 am: || |
First of all how come generally most (certanily not all) SDA's get uncomfortable talking about Jesus? This includes Jesus as a person as he lived and mingled among the common people as well as Jesus in His divineness, he healed the sick, raised the dead and preformed many miracles.Most SDA's i know when the discussion gets around to Jesus they either try to change the discussion back to non-Jesus Bibical topics such as pork or the state of the dead, etc. or they just feign boredom with Jesus and leave the room. Or the really astute SDA's will steer the conversation to Jesus being the perfect law keeper and as our example we must follow in His footsteps as He is our example. i generally counter that Jesus is not so much my example but rather He is my savior. Then I even loose the astute SDA's to boredom about discussing Jesus. Now, and this question is very important. How does one get someone to understand true Christianity when that person has no clue of it? My one son several days ago told me he's been to many different churches and he's been to many SDA churches throughout the world and by far the SDA church is the closest to teaching what the Bible teaches but io course he'll never be SDA because he thinks the concept of the Trinity is malarky and for his reasoning he got into Jewish mythology ang acient Roman and Greek mythology and so on and so forth but since the SDA church is the closest to teaching true Bible he sends his child to the SDA school.He is drawn to the Moslem religion because he has lived in numerous Moslem countries and has seen that the people practice disclipined and moral lives and don't eat pork. He's lived in many Christian countries and he sees crime and immorality and meyham and says God is a God of order and morals and laws. Then, of course, his biggie was the state of the dead. He even went on to tell me the official Adventist church has officially changed the doctrines about pork and jewlery and dancing and so on. You all know that little book those Adventists put out called something like SDA Handbook, or something like that? Well, my son said that in that book all those corny doctrines have a disclousure that they are suggestions to teach personal disapline and are not firm doctrines. He also said the SDA church does not teach anymore that the "Sunday-keepers" are less Christian than they are but rather that "Sunday-keepers" are simply wrong about going to church on Sunday but God will judge by the heart and the sincerity og the individual. Anyway, he attends several different southeran California SDA churches, not weekly but when he does go to church it's down here but he says he mostly goes so his child can play with her school friends. I've decided to give it up to God because it is just too weird and convoluted for me. Made less since to me than when the Hare Krishna's explaine the Krishna religion! BTW, I have four sons. This particular sons lack of understanding does not reflect the other threes understanding. Comments? Imput? Prayers?
Post Number: 211
|Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 9:28 am: || |
He also said the SDA church does not teach anymore that the "Sunday-keepers" are less Christian than they are but rather that "Sunday-keepers" are simply wrong about going to church on Sunday ...
They no longer teach that either. An entire article from the Adventist Review --
One question that occupies my students is whether they could keep the Sabbath from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday, yet still worship with their family in church on Sunday. I've read in Christianity Today that Michael Card, the noted performer of contemporary Christian music, does just that.
Post Number: 3582
|Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 11:17 am: || |
Gilbert, I remember seeing that article when it came out. Adventists are becoming increasingly knowledgable about what the Bible says about the gospel.The problem these statements, such as the article you linked above, create is increased confusion.
Since God is sovereign and uses everything for His eternal purposes, I know that the "moving target" of Adventism will undoubtedly create questions in some Adventists' minds. Yet the attempt at syncretism (embracing things they don't really believe inósuch as worship on Sunday while not giving up their own beliefs, such as Sabbath is sacred) is not bringing them any more freedom. It's more confusing than a strict standard.
The bottom line issueónever popular to say but nonetheless trueóis the spirit of deception that holds them in bondage. Even though they play with all kinds of ideas and see themselves as "liberal" or "inclusive", they still are bound by a spiritual power to the deceptive shadow of the law that sits in the place of Jesus in their hearts.
No matter how "free" or inclusive or liberal they are, if they still believe the Sabbath is sacred and a necessary observance for the sake of honoring God, they are embracing Galatianismóand that is "another gospel".
It is increasingly hard to argue directly because, as a dear friend of mineóa former Adventist who teaches at an SDA univeristyósaid to me, "Adventism is like a giant hydra. It has many completely different-looking heads waving about." People address one head and think they undersand the organism. They may even destroy one head, thinking they've bested the snake. But they've only done in one head. The organism remains unthreatened, and new heads keep growing. (I'm not sure the mythical hydra grew new heads, but Adventism does!)
And yes, I've also read that Michael Card honors the seventh day while taking his family to church on Sabbath. He wrote a song about Sabbath a few years ago called, I believe, "Seventh Sunrise".
By not understanding the New Covenant and the temporary nature of the law including the Decalogue, Christianity is so vulnerable to being engulfed by Galatianism. It is natural to want law--to invent law on one's own if none is available. Without a clear teaching of the sufficiency of Jesus and of the power of the Holy Spirit and the authority of the New Testament teachings, people are just plain sitting ducks for the Adventist argument.
People I know who have left Christian churches for Adventism say that they lose their joy in the Lord. It is squelched by a different spirit from the Holy Spirit.
Post Number: 2160
|Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 11:30 am: || |
Thanks Colleen for the reply. However you did not directly address any of the particulars I brought up. Pleeze I would like some imput on those concerns. Thank-you.
Post Number: 3587
|Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 12:42 pm: || |
Susan, I believe the discomfort with Jesus is because, first of all, Jesus is light, and darkness, as John said, hates the light. Behind all the human discomfort is spiritual darkness. The person him/herself might not know why he is uncomfortable, but the spirit of darkness knows.
Second, if they were to think about their reactions to "Jesus", I believe that His blood, His sacrifice, His grace are too overwhelming to deal with. To believe that Jesus shed blood for us is to put us in great debt to him. The only adequate response to this reality is to submit our entire selves to Him. People who do not want to admit their own deep sinfulness (all of us, quite frankly, are in this condition before the Holy Spirit awakens us) resist Jesus, because His sacrifice is too overwhelming. It requires that one either admit sin or carry a weight of debt that would be overwhelming. Instead, they try to explain it away or ignore it.
That's my observation, at any rate.
Susan, I pray for you and your sons.
Post Number: 2161
|Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 1:18 pm: || |
What about what my son told me about the SDA church now saying officially that such things like pork, dancing, alcohol, you know, all those sorts of things are not part of the official SDA doctrines anymore? This son insists the official view of those sorts of things is that they are suggestions to help a person achieve personal disapline. He insists in that Everything About The SDA Church book ibn their own writings the SDA church says these are not doctrines but suggestions to develope personal disapline. I say they are still included in the official 28 fundamentals and he's been misinformed. He just thinks Christians for the most part are undisplined loosers in need of a more structured religion of rules laid out plain and clear. (BTW, he is carreer military, already having been in the service for many years and is very disaplined and seems to love rules.) As such he sees the Moslems as very dedicated to their religion because of the rules that they really do abide by. It is very fruistrating to me. Have I stated it about as clear as mud? LOL
Post Number: 339
|Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 2:18 pm: || |
In my opinion, rules can be very comforting for people who do not like to take on resposability or risk. As an accountant I see clerks that become very good at their jobs as long as they have very strict step one two three, but when they are asked to develope business plans, project fiancial statements etc they freeze because if it did not turn out the way they wanted they would see it as a failure and that scares them to death. Others who see a planned path not go as they thought as just one of many options. It may not of worked out this time, but I certainly learned something from the process.
I do not know your son, but the description you are painting seems to be one who is safe in a structured environment and is adverse to risk. He may like being told what to do so that if something goes wrong it is not his fault. SDAs in a way are like that if Ellen didn't agree with it we cannot have it in our lives. Paul talks to us about drinking milk but that as Chrisitans we need to get past that stage and go onto fuller devlopment. Using love as your guide is that fuller development. You no longer have step one two three, but you must use your best judgement and take risks. The great thing about taking the risk is you are betting on a sure thing--Jesus.
Post Number: 141
|Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 2:27 pm: || |
Like any cult who respects itself, there is a mind control technique called information control, that is used by SDA church.
I'll point two of the ways information control is exercised,
1. Use of deception
a. Deliberately holding back information
b. Distorting information to make it acceptable
c. Outright lying
3. Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines
a. Information is not freely accessible
b. Information varies at different levels and missions within pyramid
c. Leadership decides who "needs to know" what
I believe the compartimentalization of information, which varies from place to place, is responsible for ideas like "the Sda church say that pork is not part of it's official doctrine"
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I guess that it can be true. If someone has a good explanation, I'll be happy to know it. It's frustrating to be disarmed by someone saying "oh, no, the sda is free from this teachings, it's only for personal discipline" when we know that it is mandatory.
Post Number: 120
|Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 3:40 pm: || |
It is in my opinion impossible for the adventist church to "officially" change any doctrine without undermining the teachings of Ellen G. White. She is the foundation for the church, and if you are a true adventist you will not eat pork because EGW said you wouldn't go to heaven if you do. The church can officially say "we are free from those teachings" but then it goes back to picking and choosing what EGW "commands" to adhere to and which are not necessary. Most strict adventists think everything she wrote or said is straight from heaven. That's my observation anyway. I know there are all different beliefs, but I love just believing in the gospel and God's word, not some human's interpretation.
I'm glad God allows me to be discerning when I read any Christian author. I have Jesus in my heart, and my heart (Spirit) tells me when something doesn't sound right. In adventism you were required to believe everything one person wrote. It just doesn't make sense!
I'm rambling. I am so happy today. I had a spot that I thought was cancerous and had to wait 3 weeks for the result. It was negative! Praise God. I am not going to get my health info on the internet anymore. I was convinced I was going to die based on researching my symptoms online! Anyway, God is good and wonderful, and hears my prayers.
Post Number: 2162
|Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 4:53 pm: || |
Dear Bb, That is wonderful news about the spot. One of my favorite websites is webmd. Anyway, I just think these SDA ministers here in Southeran California tend to make light of the real doctrines and teachings of the SDA denomination. I am the one who started the thread awhile back called, Has the SDA Church Gone New Age? The result is that many SDA's do not even have a clue what their denomination even requires. I guess they don't read the official 28 and if they do read them the ministers and more liberal SDA's tell them those rules are optional now and as long as they have the disapline of the Sabbath they're cool with the church. Having said all that I also fullly believe lots of folks thrive best when given strict boundries of right and wrong, peramaters of acceptable and unacceptable behavior.
Post Number: 3590
|Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 7:48 pm: || |
Jackob, I believe you are absolutely correct in your analysis.
Susan, Adventists will say that pork, dancing, jewelry, etc. are not "tests of fellowship". In other words, although they teach the members that things like pork are clearly against God's will (and by inference, eating pork is thus a sin), they "split hairs" for the sake of outsiders or new members and say these things aren't "tests of fellowship". People will not be disfellowshiped from the Adventist church over eating pork. They will just live with great guilt knowing they have broken God's teaching and the "health message" and thus probably be lost.
It's all a word game. Adventists have not changed their teaching. They just change how they talk about their teachings. Bottom lineóthese things hold the members in a tight grip that is under the surface.
Post Number: 632
|Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 5:08 am: || |
Thanks for the link on mind control, information control, behavior control, and emotional control. I wholeheartedly agree with the category of "deception" techniques employed in Adventism (i.e., liberately holding back information, distorting information to make it more acceptable, and outright lying).
Shamefully, I remember how arrogant I felt after attending an "important" meeting while I was in SDA departmental leadership. The meeting usually highlighted my need to control information to those under my leadership. Wow, after that "important" meeting I now had information that others could not imagine I had, etc. Being in a position of controlling information was very intoxicating.
Post Number: 770
|Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 8:02 am: || |
Personally...I lied when I got baptized. I knew I didn't agree with the fundamentals presented to me (I was rebaptized at about age 30 after some evangelistic meetings) but I also knew that salvation was through the SDA church, so I agreed. I went into the water knowing I was lying but I still came out feeling cleansed...I guess it works in spite of us!