But how do you reach a person's heart... Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 5 » But how do you reach a person's heart??? « Previous Next »

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
  Start New Thread        

Author Message
Justdodie
Registered user
Username: Justdodie

Post Number: 43
Registered: 2-2006


Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As some of you may be realizing by now, I am a person who questions everything. I'm not big on taking anyone's word as anything more than just one more opinion. I hear a bad review for a movie and I say, "I'd like to watch that, and see what I think." I read a scathing book review and I think, "I guess I'll have to go out and buy it, and see what all the hype is about." (Can you tell I'm from Missouri--the 'Show-Me' state?!)

I've read on this forum several comments about SDA pastors' sermons on the Internet. What did I do?? I went and downloaded them and listened. I am amazed! I listened yesterday all afternoon. I am astounded! At myself for listening for that long, and at what I am hearing. These folks are good. These are messages that really speak to me. These could almost be a talk that I would hear in my own church! Perhaps I have just been out of touch too long, but I believe there really are changes afoot. I believe that at least some SDA pastors are realizing that change is needed. Change is needed in the way God is presented to people, and change is needed in the teachings of the church. And I think I detect a subtle sub-text that says, "If we as Seventh-Day Adventists are to survive as a church, as a denomination, we must seek out the truth, and we must speak up, regardless of where it takes us. It will be difficult, and it will be painful. But it needs to be done."

I can tell you, if I were in the vicinity where these pastors are teaching, I would go and listen to any one of them. I'm not saying that I would become an SDA again. That is not my desire or my intention. But I hear the passion in what they are saying, and the more I read and the more I hear, the more I am convinced that the Adventist church is an institution in transition. You may think I am crazy. You may think that I have no reason to voice such an opinion, given that I have not darkened the door of an Adventist church but perhaps a half-dozen times in as many years. But since I have become involved in this forum, and others, since I have started reading and listening and asking questions, I am beginning to think that there will be changes. Inevitably. And there is hope. Hope for the unhappy folks who are still struggling inside, for those who are not yet ready to upend their entire lives, and yet know in their hearts that something is wrong with their denomination. And hope for those who have left and are still struggling because of the conflicts caused by their leaving.

As I said, you may think I'm crazy, but if we could ever have, in the little SDA churches here in the midwest where I grew up, speakers like Randy Roberts and Smuts van Rooyen and Janeen Little---I think it would go a long way toward bringing the church into the 21st century, and the people to the love of the real God. Oh, and did I mention how pleased I am that I am finding FEMALE pastors in Adventist churches? Good thing I was sitting down at the time! Oh, I know, I can hear someone right now saying, "But.. but.. but... it's not about the presentation and it's not about the gender and it's not about being current and modern and speaking the vernacular....." I'm saying: YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET PEOPLE TO LISTEN IF YOU DON'T TOUCH THEIR HEARTS! It's just not going to happen. Not unless you were raised like we were in that bastion of fear and guilt---the SDA church! Give me a speaker who speaks to me in a way that touches my heart, and I guarantee, God will do the rest!

My opinion, for what it's worth... and I'm sure, as usual, this will cause more than a few raised eyebrows. Well, I just found out there is a thread on this forum entitled "Women in the Pulpit," so I am off to read it and become 'enlightened'.


Joyce
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1297
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joyce,

I find your statement very interesting (although I am not too surprised) that the SDA sermons you heard could almost be something you would hear in a Unity Church. Of course, that will probably do more to convince most of us on this forum that there is something wrong with those sermons, rather than that they are good.

I mean no offense by my comments, by the way. :-)

Jeremy
Justdodie
Registered user
Username: Justdodie

Post Number: 46
Registered: 2-2006


Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 6:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jeremy, no offense taken, as I had the same thought when I was writing it!

Anyway, it's all good because I am learning a lot from all of this, whether people agree with me or not. The only thing that really gets me upset is when people come right back at me with that 'in-your-face', you-are-wrong-and-I-am-right judgemental attitude.

Have a great evening!
Joyce
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1692
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 7:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joyce,
Did you listen to Smuts Van Rooyen? Was his sermons downloadable from the web? What did you think of his sermon? Because, he was second in importance to Desmond Ford in my processing out of Adventism, yet he is still in. Thanks for your post, and I am glad you are listening.

Stan
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1693
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just went to Smuts Van Rooyen's church website. And I listened to part of a sermon from 3/11/06 called "Jesus Is Our Peace". Wow, it was great to hear this great man of God again. Please, anyone who is skeptical. Take Joyce up on the challenge to listen to this man's sermon. Jeremy, I want you to take the Van Rooyen challenge and see if you find overt heresy in his sermons.

The link is www.graceunconditional.com/pages/worship/sermons.asp I even like the name of the website Grace Unconditional.. All the sermons can be listened to directly online. Listening to this brought back great memories to me, and I believe God has him there for a purpose.

Stan
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob

Post Number: 221
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess that even Jan Paulson, the General Conference president, will be pleased by Van Rooyen's sermons.
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1694
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would you care to elaborate Jackob? What did you hear to guess that Paulsen would be pleased.

I will admit that Van Rooyen's sermons are not what Marti and I heard yesterday at our Prebyterian Church in America service where the preacher spent 45 minutes on Romans 8:12-14, and is teaching all of Romans word by word. Van Rooyen's sermons are not always as in depth as I would like, but you can tell this is a sincere man with a great heart for God, and for his fellow man. Certainly, his preaching though is not heresy. I will have to listen to more sermons though to come to a conclusion. You have to hear a series of sermons sometimes before you can be sure. But, unless he has changed from his Riverside days, then I have to believe he is preaching the true gospel.

Stan
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob

Post Number: 222
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 2:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The SDA message and identity is basically defined by this text


quote:

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. Revelation 14:12




By commandments, adventists understand the Decalogue, especially the Sabbath. Of course, the former adventist disagree with this interpretation. And this disagreement is unpleasent to adventists.

But in their message adventists also have the faith in Jesus. They are pleased to hear about faith, justification by faith, grace etc.

My point is: even Jan Paulsen will be pleased hearing about grace, faith, justification by faith , because these things are part of the adventist message.
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking

Post Number: 451
Registered: 7-2000
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But, Jackob and Stan, things such as 'grace', 'faith' and 'justification by faith' mean different things to SDA's than they do to most Christians. And the reason they mean something different (and that the meaning must stay within certain parameters) is because of EGW.
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4012
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lonevikingóit's always good to read your comments. You're rightóEGW is the "shape" of all Adventism's beliefs. I had no idea during the first couple of years after leaving how much she had shaped every nuance of my understanding of Scripture and doctrine and reality in general.

When we begin to ask God to show us truth and to root us in reality, no matter the cost, what we discover is far different from what we expected. It is more free, more secure, more unconditionally loving, more consistent, more powerful than any philosophical or religious/spiritual insight we thought we had before. We get Jesus Himself when we ask Him for truthóour hearts are held in His love.

Colleen
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob

Post Number: 224
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 2:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Loneviking, I fully agree with your post.

Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz

Post Number: 1697
Registered: 3-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 11:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Loneviking and others,
The discussion previous was as to the preaching of Smuts Van Rooyen. I learned the doctrine of justification by faith alone through the ministry of Desmond Ford and Smuts Van Rooyen. So I very well know what Van Rooyen means when he speaks of justification by faith alone--it means what the Reformers said it did. I just wanted to state that for the record.

Stan
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob

Post Number: 226
Registered: 7-2005


Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I listened to his sermon "Jesus Is Our Peace" and indeed I found nothing objectionable. But neither have compaadventists who believe fully in the SDA false gospel will find something objectionable in his sermon.

This means that the true gospel can be preached without a flaw, and the adventist people will read their false gospel in the message. They will see nothing objectionable and will be pleased to hear the sermon, because the gospel message will not adress the particular problems of the audience.

In his sermon Smuts spoke about "the middle wall of partition" (Ephesians2:14) and the fact that Jesus destroyed it, and because Jesus destroyed this wall, He is our peace. Indeed a good gospel sermon. I have no problem with what he said, he is right in what he said.

My problem is with what he had not said. His sermon does not adress the basic problem of adventist's "middle wall of partition", the Sabbath. I'm not stupid, I know that nobody can present a sermon about Sabbath being a part of the "middle wall of partition", abolished by Jesus, and still remain a pastor. In no way I'm judging Smuts for not mentioning the Sabbath in his sermon.

But I must face the reality that even historic adventists will consider his sermon as beeing good. They will not see that the Sabbath is indeed a part of the middle wall of partition, simply because the sermon didn't mention it. Their specific problem remains intact. After hearing this sermon, they will continue with their false gospel unchallenged. The middle wall of partition remains intact, in spite of all Smuts's efforts to see the wall destroyed.

I remember that for a long time before arriving at the conclusion that the Sabbath is no longer mandatory for christians, I have the feeling that the sabbath is indeed a part of the middle wall. I felt that as an adventist I'm really separated, isolated from the fellowship of other christians.
As a historic adventist I was at this time, I longed for the day when all true believers will arrive at the conclusion that the Sabbath must be kept, and they will become adventists.

Of course I blamed the other christians for not keeping the sabbath. I believed that it was their fault for the separation. Only when my belief about sabbath was openly challenged, and I faced the reality that indeed, the wall that Jesus destroyed adventists errected again, I felt that nothing separates me from the full fellowship with my brothers in Christ.

But the wall remains intact in the adventist church. Today I'm feeling the separation and distance which exist now between me and my adventists friends.

I understand what Smuts seems to long for, for the middle wall to dissapear. He used a wonderful example, of Ronald Reagen giving his speech in Berlin. He said in front of the cameras, to Gorbachev, the president of Soviet Union: "Tear down this wall, mister Gorbachev" In the back was the Brandenburg gate and the Berliner's gate. Wonderful and clear message, and a great illustration for Van Rooyen's sermon. Unfortunately, as long as adventists don't hear the clear message "Tear down the Sabbath wall" all the efforts of those who long to see the wall destroyed will be in vain. The wall of the false gospel remains intact.


Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven

Post Number: 464
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 1:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And yet, eventually some people do see it, which is why there are former SDA's who are committed Christians. Of course it's the Holy Spirit Who takes away the veil. However, I believe this preaching of grace which the SDA church allows, is used by God. For many years I struggled with how to reconcile this same grace I often heard at the SDA church, with Adventist distinctive doctrines. Eventually I realized they couldn't be reconciled, and the rest is history. At least SDA's are hearing it somehow, somewhere!

What concerns me more are the SDA's who really don't have the historical background that many of us "older than 35 or 40" people have. When all they've ever heard is the mostly grace with next to no EGW, it's much harder to see anything that needs reconciling. And yet I'm sure God has His ways of reaching that group as well.
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4014
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob, I understand what you are saying. While I also thought Smuts' sermon "He Is Our Peace" was a good sermon as far as it went, I believe the confusion about how to destroy that middle wall of partition came in his identification of that wall.

Smuts stated that the "barrier of the dividing wall" (Ephesians 2:14) is in our hearts, and Jesus has destroyed that wall. We must allow it to remain un-inhibiting in our relationships. The problem is that Smuts did not include Ephesians 2:15 which identifies the wall. Here's verses 14 and 15 together: "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of comamndments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two one new man, thus establishing peace." (NASB)

That middle wall, or barrier of the diving wall was the product of the Law. Jesus destroyed in His flesh the law with its commandments and regulations (as the NIV puts it). The barrier comes down when the law is destroyed in Jesus' flesh on the cross. This is the part of the text that Smuts did not address, and this omission is why it seemed so difficult to explain HOW that barrier is to be overcome today.

The fact that you sensed the Sabbath was still functioning as a barrier, Jackob, is because it is. The Sabbath is part of that law that Jesus destroyed in His flesh. Without preaching verse 15, there's no way to understand how to live in the freedom of having the barrier destroyed.

Smuts' sermon was good as far as it went. It just didn't include the "how to", or the power of the Ephesians passage because he didn't show that the dividing wall was not just "in our hearts" but was actually the product of the law.

Smuts does, however, know the truth about justification by faith. I've heard him preach it. In Adventism, though, it's important also to address the issue of sanctification and the security of remaining saved. We can't assume that because they know the facts of justification they also know the reality of staying saved apart from the law. And in the case of this particular sermon, the role of the law in creating the barrier was missing.

Colleen
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4015
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 2:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven, you are so right. As Richard said, the deception of preaching justification by faith and juxtaposing it with Sabbath-keeping and the necessity of obedience (read that Sabbath-keeping and honoring the law) as a sign of being saved is producing young Adventists who are innoculated to the gospel. They truly hear the right words, and in some cases they are hearing the right meanings about justification.

But they are not being taught the security of salvation, and they are learning in effect that while they are saved with no help from themselves, they can be lost entirely by their own disobedience. This deception is far harder to correct than the completely flawed historic Adventism wasóand yet it leaves people equally despairing.

I agree, however, that God uses the talk of grace within Adventism to draw people to Him. He certainly used what I heard from Morris Venden and Des Ford to get me thinking. Their teaching was not enought to get me to understand the gospel as taught in the Bible, but it certainly freed me from the crazy-making compulsions I had of spending my waking moments calculating my sins and trying to remember what to confess.

I heard Ravi Zacharias say today, in one of his Q & A sessions, that God is drawing people to Himself from inside their Muslim and Buddhist milieus. He reveals Himself to people using whatever means necessary to awaken them to the truth. Further, he pointed out, God's divine nature and eternal power are visible from creation, so all people are without excuse. When God reveals Himself, we have to be willing to follow Himóbut He is not limited by our envionments in His ability to awaken us to Him.

We just have to be willing to know the truth and to follow Him as truth becomes clear.

Colleen
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy

Post Number: 1299
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jackob and Colleen, great points. I would also add that since Sabbath/Law is viewed as salvational in Adventism, that is why it is necessary to address it in order to actually communicate the true gospel to Adventists.

Jeremy
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 4018
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, Jeremy.

Colleen

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration