| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 233 Registered: 11-2005 |
The following question was was in the June 5, 2006 newsletter I received today from PTMUpdate@ptm.org:
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| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 524 Registered: 8-2004  |
Wow! Mary | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4107 Registered: 12-2003  |
Wow is right! What a great answer Greg Albrecht gave, and how well he understood the problem. I'm finding that the sword Jesus said He came to bring into our relationships ("I have not come to bring peace but a swordÖ" Matt 10:34) is Jesus Himself. It's not a new religion or set of doctrines or even a worldview. When we are in Jesus, the sword that divides so many of our relationships is Jesus. He is the stone of offense that becomes the "elephant in the room". Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2578 Registered: 3-2004  |
All I can add is WOW. How true that is. Diana | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 245 Registered: 7-2005  |
The image of salt mines, which implies slaves in chains is great. Slaves under the yoke of the law cannot live peacefully with those who are under the yoke of Jesus. The law is a yoke which crushes the people without mercy. Image what unsupportable is to be under the yoke of the law, this heavy yoke and see others under the yoke of Jesus, which is easy. A legalist is under a constant suffering carring the yoke of the law, and he cannot endure to see the peace, and the jow of the christians who are not under the same yoke. In this way he is motivated to put the same yoke upon these people, to make them feel miserable, like himself. The real problem, I suppose, is with the holiness of God. A legalist cannot endure the holiness of God. This holiness is reflected in the law, and the law is a yoke for the sinner, because it condemns and stirs sin in his life. He cannot please God, unconsciously he feels this, he feels the yoke, the condemnation of the law, and he understands, at least unconsciously that the only way he can be accepted by God is through grace. But he cannot accpet this grace because he hates God, he hates this so high holiness which condemns him. And his hate is directed towards the children of God. How sad! Words cannot describe the grief I feel when I see this happening again, and again, and again with adventists. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4113 Registered: 12-2003 |
Such an interesting post, Jackob. I had not thought of this issue the way you described it before, but it makes sense. The irreconcilable difference between those who are under the law and those who are free in Christ is God's holinessóperceived from different perspectives. To people under the law, God's holiness is demanding and condemning as long as they look to the law for direction. To people in Christ and living in grace, God's holiness is the inheritance which is theirs because of their new birth. To the one, God's holiness means destruction and fear; to the other, God's holiness means forgiveness and transformation. So interesting. Colleen | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 196 Registered: 12-2004 |
Thank-you Jorgfe, Now let me turn my printer on... push copy...there I have it. What a great answer this is as we all know some body like this. Thanks again, Randy | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 740 Registered: 4-2000  |
Jacob, An excellent perspective on law and grace! In other words, misery likes company. In his book, "Classic Christianity," Bob George says it well: "The Christian world is obsessed with sin. It's all we talk about. Most of our preaching and teaching is directed toward getting people to quit sinning. Are you ready for a really shocking statement? THE GOAL OF THE CHRISTIAN LIFE IS NOT TO STOP SINNING! To use the analogy of the starving man, most Christian teaching is like a person following a starving man around saying, 'You stay out of the garbage! Do you hear me? Dont' eat the garbage! You stay out of there!' Look, when you're truly hungry, you'll eat anything--even garbage. What should you do? I promise you: If you will get that man into the cafeteria line, he won't be nostalgically dreaming about the garbage out back. What is it that every human being needs? The life of Christ! And not just our initial receiving Him into our lives; we need to experience daily the reality of knowing Christ and walking with Him in a vibrant relationship. The Lord defined eternal life this way: 'Now this is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent' (John 17:3). THAT IS THE REAL GOAL OF THE CHRISTIAN LIFE! KNOWING CHRIST! It is only in comparison with the riches of knowing Christ that sin begins to lose its appeal. The longer that I am a Christian, the more I feel in my heart that sin is not just wrong, it it outright STUPID. I feel os dumb for settling for anything less than experiencing Jesus Christ Himself every minute. Why should I wallow in the garbage when the Lord has laid a banquet table for me? And yet, the 'stay-out-of-the-garbage' approach to Christian education predominates today. In other words, we continue to try tot use the law to produce the Christian life... When Christians are living under law, the results are the same as they have always been. And it doesn't matter whether you are trying to live up to God's laws, man-made laws, or even your own self-emposed standards. The result will be fear, guilt, frustration, and feelings of condemnation. You will experience a lack of ability to love God or men. How can you love a God that you are laboring to please but never can? And when you are feeling continual guilt and condemnation, how can you be kind and forgiving to other people? When they appear to be doing well, you envy them. When they fail, you judge them. After all, why should I let YOU off the hook if God is hammering ME every time I blow it? That's the way you think under law." (pp. 137, 138, 145) By the way, check out the PEOPLE TO PEOPLE MINISTRIES website at: www.realanswers.net . Their project manager is Richard Pfeifer, a former Seventh-day Adventist minister who interned under Dr. Walter Rea in southern California. Richard Pfeifer stated in an email to me, "As Providence would have it, I was sent to be an intern under Walter Rea during his research revealing the plagiarism of Ellen White." Dennis Fischer | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4118 Registered: 12-2003 |
Thank you for the Bob George quote, Dennis--"Classic Christianity" is a must-read, as far as I am concerned. I believe every person who has been in a law-based church needs to read it. And thanks for identifying Richard PfeiferóI have a manuscript by him, but I didn't realize who he was! Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 531 Registered: 1-2003  |
Colleen do you have any comment regarding the review of Bob George's book Classic Christianity? I'm considering buying the book and wonder about the comments at the following.  http://withchrist.org/mjs/bob_george.htm Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4121 Registered: 12-2003 |
Well, Richard, I confess that Miles Stanford's critiques left me a bit cold. Frankly, I found his arguments hard to follow and so theoretical that it would be hard for me to figure out how to find victory or joy or peace in my experience by applying them. In a nutshell, here's what I can say: I have heard Bob George say, in one of his broadcasts, that there is now no more need to ask God to "forgive" our sins because we are already forgiven. He did not say we ignore our sins, however. He advocated acknowledging them and surrendering them to Jesus. He just objected to the use of asking for forgiveness. I actually disagree with this fine point; the fact is, he does not say this in his book, nor does his personal aversion to the words "forgive my sins" suggest we don't sin or suggest that we ignore our sin. As far as "eradication theology" which Stanford objects to, I find Stanford's argument to be hair-splitting and dependent upon dispensational theology. Stanford clearly believes in a pre-tribualtion rapture and a clear distinction between the church and Israel. Frankly, while I see Biblical evidence that God is still dealing with Israel, holding them in a state of partial hardening for a time (Romans 11), I believe the Bible is clear that both Israel and the Gentiles comprise the church. There are not two separate salvations, nor do I see that israel will necessarily come to Jesus during the millenium. Stanford says that we do not now participate in the New Covenant; that, he says, is for Israel during the millenium. I patently disagree with him. Hebrews, Galatians, Romans, Ephesiansóall are clear that we are living now in the new covenant. The great mystery at work is that the Gentiles are alive in Christ and have been brought into this oneness with God. I have little disagreement with Bob Georgeósome minor things, but nothing significant. From what I could tell from Stanford's notations, however, I have some rather serious disagreements with him. The fact is that George's book explains how living by the Spirit "works" in a Christ-follower. I thought Stanford's notes had overtones of works in his words. George, on the other hand, explains so well how to begin to think like a person who is not under the law. The Bible, in fact, clearly says that in Christ we are a new creature. This is not a future reality; it is now. Bob George acknowledges that we still live in our flesh with sinful habits and weaknesses. He talks about how to become identified with Christ instead of with our old sinful selves. I found George's book to be extremely helpful. His focus on our identity in Christ is powerful, and he totally understands the pull of the law which is made obsolete in Christ. Based just on the reviews, I find Stanford's theology to be technical and difficult to make real. In fact, as George says, when we accept Jesus, we are connected to God through the Holy Spirit. What happens in eternity past and eternity future is a moot point to us at the moment we are born again. Functionally, we are inside time, and our new birth has to "work" inside time. Our position in Christ is not limited or changed if we do not understand the impact of God's eternal calling or our eventual glorification. God will teach us these profound truths as we grow in Him. But growth in Him is difficult if we don't understand our new relationship in Christ and OUT of the law! George explains this new reality extremely carefully and practically. Colleen | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 77 Registered: 10-2002  |
I'm startled by Albrecht's phrase, "while he knows a well worn path of proof texts that he has been taught, he will be lost if he gets off that path." How true, and how easy to live on that kind of path, no matter what denomination you live in. | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 105 Registered: 11-2005 |
Richard, I agree with Colleen, in that "Classic Christianity" is a must-read. I read the link you posted, and kind of had a tough time following the writer, so I can't directly comment about what he had to say. If I understood right, I think that he had an issue with the fact that being born of the Spirit isn't the key as much as what Jesus did on the cross. Again, that's a really simplified summary of what I thought he was saying because I couldn't quite follow his argument. I don't really have much to comment on what he said, because from what I understood him to say, I don't think that his criticisms were really warranted. But, I can comment on what I thought of the book. It was given to me as a gift for my baptism. Typically, when I read books like this, they are very "casual reads". I'm used to books like this being somewhat watered down and full of fluff. I was pleasantly surprised by the depth, yet simplicity of this book. By the second chapter, my "casual reading" turned into underlining and making notes in the margins of the book. I felt as if that book was written for me. He really seemed to have a good grasp of legalism, and the "Adventist" mindset. He does such a good job of systematically laying out his thoughts and Biblically supporting his statements. During this stage of discovery for me (as a really baby Christian), this book was perfect for helping me solidify all these new ideas of being made alive by the Spirit, and finding my new identity in Him. Not to mention affirming what it means to be truly free from the bondage of the Law. Mostly, this book clarified and solidified what it means to live a new life of being Spirit led. That was such a new concept for me. The whole book was awesome. Chapter 3 (Man Alive!) was especially meaningful to me. It was in reading this chapter, that I really realized I was spiritually alive because I had recieved the Holy Spirit in my life and thus "recieved the very life of God" (pg. 51). I realized that God came to live His life through me. "Salvation is not just something that Christ did for us, but it is Jesus Christ Himself living in us. It is the process of passing from death to life." (pg. 54) I can't begin to tell you how understanding that concept has changed my life and the way I view things. It took away my fear and lack of assurance of salvation. It helped me realize my identity in Christ, and it helped me understand how much of our Christian maturation isn't about how well we do this or that, or how good our obedience is. Rather, our Christian growth comes from completely submitting every aspect of our lives to the Spirit. I can go on and on about this book. Bottomline, a great read for former Adventists. It helps in explaining all those many concepts we have to relearn. One more quote that kind of sums up what I got out of the book, "You will never have a changed life until you experience the exchanged life. Christians are continually trying to change their lives; but God calls us to experience the exchanged life. Christianity is not a self-improvement program. It isn't a reformation project. It is a resurrection! It is a new life! And it is expressed in terms of a total exchange of identity." (pg. 109) Grace | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 106 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen, I just now read your post. I'm glad I wasn't the only one who found Miles Stanford's critiques hard to follow. I reread the article a few times, and still couldn't really get what he was trying to say. I really wanted to, but couldn't. I can't tell you how relieved it makes me feel. I want to be open to different thoughts so I don't get trapped in one way thinking again; I worry about that sometimes. So your post was affirming for me . Grace | ||
| Belvalew Registered user Username: Belvalew Post Number: 1038 Registered: 7-2004 |
Grace, I saw what you said about it being Jesus Christ Himself living in us, and I wholeheartedly agree, but I also know that Adventists will look at a statement like that and say that that means Jesus is "perfecting" us for the time of trouble. I've been posting at CARM for a while and am sensitized to those little opportunities that they will take to blow holes in the theory that we give that sin will never be triumphed over, save in the person of Jesus Christ Himself, prior to the coming of our Lord and Savior. I'm not adding to or trying to take away from what you have said, because I've not read the book you are talking about. I just might make a point of picking it up this weekend, though, because I've heard so many good things about it. Blessings to you all. Belva | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4123 Registered: 12-2003 |
The good thing about "Classic Christianity" is two-fold: it clearly shows that the law is not for Christians, and it explains how the Holy Spirit interacts with us. It is a completely new understanding from what we learned about the Holy Spirit's work in Adventism. I would say that Dale Ratzlaff's book "Sabbath in Christ" is the definitive book explaining what the new covenant is and showing that Christ fulfilled the old. Bob George's book, I would say, it the most helpful one I've read in teaching how we LIVE in the New Covenant without falling back into the words and hidden legalism we learned in the "grace words" of Adventism. Colleen | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 107 Registered: 11-2005 |
I agree with Colleen. "Sabbath in Christ" helped me with the Biblical facts about what the new covenant is, and how the old was fulfilled. "Classic Christianity" re-emphasized not being under the law, but also took it a step further into how to live according to this "new way". As a recovering former legalist, I had this compulsive drive to have to obey "something". When I discovered that the law was completely fulfilled, it left me somewhat feeling lost in that I didn't know how to live as a "good" Christian. Slowly, I began to realize what having a relationship with God really meant (as an Adventist, it was more of a cliche than a reality), and how to love this God-Being that always seemed so nebulous. And then, realizing that the Holy Spirit actually INDWELLED me literally, not just figuratively, changed my world. All of a sudden I knew how to live -- by the Spirit. And rather than checking to see whether my works were producing the fruits, I realized the "fruits" were just there naturally. I didn't have to worry about the checklist anymore. The freedom of it just happening when I actually do submit (there are many times I still fight for my own control, and the consequences are obvious when that happens) was amazing. And ironically, I am a lot more "convicted" about wrongs or choices than before. There are a lot of gray areas that the law didn't encompass, but I could still feel righteous in my own way for keeping those 10 perfectly. So that whole "freedom to sin" argument just doesn't stand. "Classic Christianity" didn't make this epiphany happen. I had already begun to "sense" all of these new things, but the book helped solidify and organize it all in my head. One of the biggest changes for me as a new former is realizing that God's Spirit is LITERALLY in me and making me spiritually alive. It's not just a metaphor. Because of this, we have a whole new identity in Him. I was talking to a close Adventist friend of mine about this reality and he just couldn't get it. He worried about me falling into "pantheistic beliefs". And until he really understands what it means to be guided by the Spirit rather than the law, he won't understand. As long as it's still about us, and what we can do, we won't ever feel the need, or grasp the rewards of putting our lives and salvation in God's hands. Hope this makes sense. My posts are always a little more disjointed during work hours, because I'm usually writing between work and interuptions . | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1330 Registered: 10-2004  |
Amen, Grace. How exciting to know that it is not just a metaphor! "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God," (Romans 8:16 NASB). The Spirit Himself actually indwells us, we are actually children of God because our spirits actually have been born again/regenerated/connected to God, and we actually have actual spirits that actually have eternal life and will never die or be separated from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord (John 11:26, Romans 8:38-39)! Praise God!! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on June 07, 2006) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 741 Registered: 4-2000 |
About two years ago, I heard Bob George interview Richard Pfeifer, a former SDA pastor, for about thirty minutes on a People to People radio program. The interview focused on the legalism in Adventism. Richard Pfeifer did an excellent job in describing SDA-brand legalism. Dennis Fischer | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 200 Registered: 12-2004 |
Grace, I will pick up the book Classic Christianity tommorrow. You have made it essential reading. I understand the challenges of trying to compose a cohesive and logical post during work as well. I on occasion hear from the front office, "Are Those Charts Done?", or "Did you forget room 2?", or "Lock up when you leave". Peace to all, Randy | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 109 Registered: 11-2005 |
Randy, I often hear those same type of comments from the front office too! That's so funny!! I heard them say today (loud enough for me to hear), "She's on that website again, and she's typing fast. It will be awhile." Grace | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1731 Registered: 3-2005 |
I have not read Bob George's book, but it seems Miles Standish criticisms may be a bit much. But I would like to put a plug in for what I consider to be the best volume out there on systematic theology and that is Wayne Grudem's "Systematic Theology". This book is well written, easy to read, and balanced. However, the best textbook ever is still the Bible. My favorite version is now the English Standard Version. Stan | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 535 Registered: 1-2003 |
Thanks to Grace and Colleen and the rest of you. I was a bit confused by the critique of the book and you have each helped. I'll be ordering the book today. It will be good to read more about being lead by the spirit instead of the law. That has been my motto for some time and I enjoy reading of ways to better explain and internalize it. again thanks all, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 536 Registered: 1-2003 |
Stan I already have Grudems in electronic form for my computer and i just ordered Bob Georges book of Classical Christianity and also one of his on Grace. I guess I know what I'll be reading in my off time while I teach summer school. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Gmatt Registered user Username: Gmatt Post Number: 25 Registered: 3-2005 |
Richard, You will love "Classic Christianity"! It just soothed my weary soul. | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 537 Registered: 1-2003 |
Thanks Gmatt, I'm sure I will enjoy it. I'm sure looking forward to it. richard |
