| Author | Message | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2598 Registered: 3-2004  |
Today I called, in Northern VA, some friends who are SDA. It was because of these friends that I almost was rebaptized SDA. They know that I did not rejoin the SDA church and are still friends. In fact D and I are bosom buddies. When I call her and we start talking it is like we have never been apart. When her husband learned it was me on the phone he wanted to talk to me. What he was said was, "I saw your picture in the paper." My reply was, "OH, Proclamation. That was a Spirit filled weekend." He said he likes the articles in Proclamation. So, please remember R & D in your prayers, that they find that all they need is Jesus. When I attended church in No VA, after I met R & D, I went only to see them, not to get anything from the service. They were and are very accepting of me and the changes I have made in my life. They are Christians and I love them dearly and pray for them. God is so awesome in all He does. Diana | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 202 Registered: 12-2004 |
Diana, What a great tribute to your Adventist friends. Most of my friends are Adventist as well. My Adventist friends continue to accept me as a brother, and give hellos, handshakes, and hugs when we meet. Our bonds of friendship are based on more than denominational affiliation. We hold dear our love for Jesus and His saving grace, and a mutual respect for each other's journey. My Adventist friends know that I continue to accept, love, and value each one of them. I am fortunate indeed, when I can honestly say that I have not lost one friend during my transition out. I attribute this apparent anomaly to the fact that my friends are special people, and they recognize that I have not left God by leaving Adventism. Is my situation peculiar? It might be, but then again I guess my friends are a peculiar people, in the best sense of the word. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4143 Registered: 12-2003  |
Randy, what a blessing. I believe your situation is a bit of an anomaly and might be (although I certainly can't say this for sure!) related to the fact that your wife is still active in Adventism. It's possible, too, that your friends really are unusual Adventists. One of the reasons our friends dropped away was that when we left the church, weóas a coupleóstopped being active in the Adventist church and school. During the time we were "leaving" but were still involved in school and peripherally in the community, we didn't sense the pulling away. Only after we were "out of sight" did we feel the change. While initially there was a flurry of phone calls, those eventually dropped away also. Those I reached out to personally eventually quit responding. Interestingly, as you all know now, Richard continued to work with them albeit without hiding his "former" status. As long as he was with them every day, they could chat and have friendly talks and a sense of mutual respect. In this past half-week, he has heard from only two people he worked with over the past 15 years. It's mildly surprising, but at the same time, it's expected. People tend to be "afraid" to be associated with someone perceived as a problem. As long as he was interacting with them, they could sort-of ignore his "former" status. Once he's really gone, however, and people know it's because of his convictions, it's no longer "safe". I believe it's like a mirror in front of them; his absence underscores their own deep questions they don't know how to answer. Randy, I believe God has given you these continuing friendships as a gift of grace in your life and in theirs. He is keeping the door open between you and them for as long as He deems it should be open. Praise God for this blessing! Colleen | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 203 Registered: 12-2004 |
Colleen, There is alot of truth in what you say. Nobody seeks me out, but then they rarely did before. Most of my continued contact is family or school related. Some of the "friends" I am referring are not particularly close, but this is not much different than before. This I suspect is more my personality than anything else.Some of us are not that easy to get close to.Those of us on the introvert side of the spectrum tend to have fewer close people to start with. I think this is also a commom characteristic of the overly obligated middle-aged man. Maybe that is why I have not noted much of a difference. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1744 Registered: 3-2005 |
Randy, Thanks for sharing your experience. I believe that your ongoing friendship with SDAs is a result of your genuine grace centered approach, and your desire to want to be a positive influence for the gospel. Stan | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2599 Registered: 3-2004 |
My friends and I developed a friendship because we first of all really liked and respected each other. D and I are best friends. I was her best friend and I was not SDA, even though we met at church. We used to laugh about that and still do. Randy I am glad you still have SDA friends. They, like my friends R & D, will someday come to know that all they need is Jesus. Diana | ||
| Lynne Registered user Username: Lynne Post Number: 437 Registered: 10-2005 |
It just goes to show that many SDAs are Christian and many are very nice people. They are as deserving as we were when we were Adventist of respect and unconditional love. I'm just grateful that I no longer feel the bondage that I felt when I was Adventist. I will contine to pray for the many great people who are Adventist and feel bondage as we did. Lynne | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 207 Registered: 12-2004 |
Lynne, You make some great observations. Yes many Adventists are Christian, and great people. Most Adventists don't recognize that they are in, or have the potential to be in spiritual bondage, I know I never did. Thats just the way it was, and I thought it was normal. I think that is the experience of many. Your committment to God was determined by how good of an Adventist you were. How good of an Adventist you were was determined by how well you kept the rules, be it Sabbath, diet, tithing, sending your kids to the SDA school, academy, college, or university. Very little attention was given to your heartfelt relationship with God, as long as you fell into line in the above areas. This unfortunately is not the Gospel, and is really a form of spiritual bondage. Until you personally experience spiritual freedom unfettered by manmade traditions, it is very difficult to know the difference, or even perceive that there might be something better. | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1751 Registered: 3-2005 |
Thanks Diana, Randy, and Lynne for your important observations regarding many Adventists. They need our support and prayers, Many of them are in spiritual bondage. As Diana has suggested many times, we need to continue our prayers. Stan | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 539 Registered: 1-2003  |
Stan I agree with your comment to Randy: "I believe that your ongoing friendship with SDAs is a result of your genuine grace centered approach, and your desire to want to be a positive influence for the gospel." I'm sure that some of the separation that is felt is simply the fact that people are now attending different churchs and don't see each other as easily. I know that there are some who may avoid a person because they feel uncomfortable and don't know how to deal with the changes they see. Each person needs to quietly keep their friends in prayer and lift them up in love before God. Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 690 Registered: 7-2004 |
I have to confess...some of my loss of SDA friendships has been of my own making. Knowing what my thoughts and judgments were of those who left Adventism before me made me pull away in self-protection. Without a doubt, I know I was the topic of many Sabbath afternoon potlucks around here. I don't know if self-exile made the journey easier or not. I hear Randy's comments and begin to wonder what if... I have a great deal of respect for you, Randy, in keeping your SDA friendships in tact. Denise | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 210 Registered: 12-2004 |
Richard, When I come in contact with my Adventist friends, I have to remember that many of them have preconceived ideas as to what a "former" is. The assumption is that "formers" are bitter, alienated, on a spiritual downward spiral, and critical of anything Adventist. Sometimes, unfortunately this assumption can be substantiated without to much effort. This is a "stereotype" that must be broken if OUR new found sense of freedom in Christ is at all going to appear credible. If we as former Adventists cannot present a kinder, gentler, more grace filled vision of Christianity than is found in Adventism, what is the point. Why in the world would someone in God's own Remnant Church want to explore something new if all they see is bitterness and judgement from those that leave, even if they recognize that some of their fundamental beliefs are shaky at best. You are right in that some of the separation is largely due to the fact that we all lead busy lives, and without that weekly contact an unintentional, but understandable separation develops. This then becomes an opportunity, or even obligation to try and maintain some sort of comfortable contact so they know they are not forgotten or dismissed. This is the challenge, but I ask, if not us... who? Denise, its nice to see you back! Like yourself I am sure I have been the topic of a few discussions around the Postum pot. I honestly don't know who knows what any more, because nobody has said anything to me. The way words travel around here, I am sure more know than I think. Again, I think I have stymied the stereotype, and have confused a number of folks. Like, isn't an Apostate supposed to look different, appear rebellious, or be less interested in spiritual things than he was before. I think what they see, and what they are getting are mixed messages. Like why is he walking towards God, instead of away from Him? Why is he more willing to share what God has done for him now, than he did before? He still seems like a nice guy. Again, burning both ends of the candle, Randy | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1762 Registered: 3-2005 |
Randy, Thanks for that grace-filled insight. I wish when I was processing out of Adventism, that I would have had that kinder gentler spirit. Many more current SDAs would want what formers have found, if we show them that we have really discovered grace. Stan | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 540 Registered: 1-2003 |
Stan and Randy, thanks to both of you. When I've brought up the issue of attitude toward SDAs and how to talk to them it has not ment we should avoid truth or revealing the error many are living in. BUT if I can not live a life filled with grace and a love of my Savior Jesus then they, with some justification, can say why would I want what they have. They need to see that love manifest in my treatment and time with them. I know that many here already do this but I've had to look deep inside to make sure of my motivations and attitudes toward others. I ask myself constantly am I being self-righteous in any way or am I quietly revealing the simple life of being in His hands and sold out to Him at all times. My experience recently with those who know of my questioning and study has been interesting. The most prevalent attitude has been one of two, why are you abandoning the pillars of SDAs and why do you find it necessary to be divisive. I have a VERY SIMPLE answer. I say my goal is to do neither of those things. My goal is to study and understand the truth of God in the Bible. I have no other goal but to follow God and be sold out totally to my Savior. In His hands, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4158 Registered: 12-2003 |
I feel I must say something here. As I write this, Richard is on his way to Loma Linda to have his usual Wednesday lunch with a (now former) colleague at the university. This colleague is Adventistónot traditional, but somewhere between liberal and evangelical. They have been having lunch together every weekójoined often by other LLU faculty and sometimes even LLU Church pastoral staffófor over a year. They eat in the campus cafeteriaóand even now, Richard is going to keep his appointment there. Just before he left, Richard had a phone call with another faculty member who told him that the private design job Richard had been doing for a particular professional organization would be withdrawn from Richard. Word had reached this faculty from administration that Richard's ministry and website held positions that made it "politically inocrrect" for Richard to continue to design this particular newsletter. "I respect you, but you can't do the job," this person said. Of course, these two events juxtaposed within an hour of each other caused me to consider the observations on this thread. Is it really an accurate assessment to conclude that if people pull away after we leave the church, the reason is necessarily that we are not "grace-filled" and gentle? For seven years Richard has openly led this ministry and designed Proclamation, all the while working in the midst of Loma Linda University. For seven years he has entertained various faculty members' and LLU Church staff's private questions in his office. He's even been stopped on the street by a LLU Church pastor who told him how much he admired Richard for what he was doing and for the fact that he stayed within the community even after leaving the church. Yet Richard's position has been public and clear. He has never soft-pedalled his own beliefs about the church or its doctrines. Of course, he has shaped his personal conversations with individuals to fit their own questions, but he has never backed down. Richard has been treated with respect and and admiration, and he has served his school's faculty with kindness, personal attention and care, and ongoing warmth and openness. At the same time, there are many who have pulled away and others who have maintained superficial polite relationships. Some never really noticed Richard's public statements through Proclamation and this website. In fact, some are saying they are now coming to this website and picking up Proclamation just because they have learned about Richard's termination. I was talking to Richard about the implications of this thread this morning before he left. His response to me was this: of course one can maintain superficial relationships with people loyal to Adventism after one leaves. But "friendship" implies being able to speak openly about one's own convictions and experiences. A real friend is one who speaks the truth to another, even if it's unpleasant. (Of course, the implication is that its done in love, not anger.) The problem with most of our Adventist "relationships" is that when we leave the church and declare our loyalty to Jesus, clearly identifying the problems with the church, most Adventists don't want to discuss this fact. If we "show up" around them, they'll be overtly polite, but there will not usually be any meaningful conversation about what's important to us: Jesus and why we left. Maintaining superficial relationships is not hardóbut maintaining meaningful friendships is difficult when people have opposing world views. There is a difference between maintaining polite interactions and lovingly serving Adventists and maintaining "friendships". Jesus is a polarizing Reality. The deep deception of Adventism is also polarizing. The veil over their faces is, as our pastor said several months ago in a sermon, "a spiritual power". These facts create dynamics we cannot simply choose to overcome because we want to overcome them. Jesus said he came not to bring peace but a sword. This fact does not imply that we should be harsh, angry, or critical to our Adventist friends. But we must speak the truth. Jesus never soft-pedalled the truth about the Pharisees and the spiritually bankrupt Jewish nation. But He loved them and continued to reach out to themówhile clearly telling them things which I would cringe to say. Jesus told them they were children of their father the devil. He called them whited sepulchres, snakes, a brood of vipers. He was NOT politically correct. I watch my husband who has suffered a great deal internally during these past seven years as they have pressured him to quit. Over five years ago they threatened his job because of this ministry, but Richard would not back down. The threat evaporatedóbut it has hung over his head with increasing weight all these years. They took away his job title; they took him off salary and put him on time clock; they took away his office help and piled impossible work loads on him. Yet through it all, as he prayed and I prayed re: his job (make no mistake; he wanted to leave!), God's answer to Richard was clear: "Wait." Richard has said to me for years, "The minute God is done with me at LLU, I will be gone that day. Until then, they will not be able to remove me." He has been open and kind, steadfast and truthful; he has worked with a servant's heart, never complaining to people about what was happening "behind the scenes". And he has never backed down. Over the years I would occasionally ask him if he wanted me to "soft pedal" my comments on the forum in deference to his employment, and he always answered, "NO! We can't back down from the truth. We have to stand for what we know is reality!" Because God has finally released Richard (and we both know without a doubt that the timing is God's, and this termination was an act of God), I can speak a bit more openly about what I've witnessed. I can say this: when we stand for Jesus, that stand necessitates revealing what is hidden in darkness. A lot of people cringe when the light of truth is clearly aimed at the hidden evil. God calls us to a task that, without His Spirit, is impossible. He asks us to "call a spade a spade", to clearly identify what's wrong with the evil He reveals to us; (Ephesians 5:11). At the same time, we are to love our Adventist friends for God. Make no mistake: many people will be offended, as many are offended now by Richard's public stand regarding Adventism and his persistent ministry for those who are questioning and leaving. Those who have a desire to know truth, however, who are drawn toward light in spite of themselves, will be willing to "stick around"óat least until they don't want to deal with the challenge of truth any longer. Superficial relationships in which the significant issues in one's life cannot be discussed will likely die. They may exist for a time, but whenever one's commitment to Jesus is more profound than one's commitment to Adventism or to maintaining "comfortable" relationships, those "comfortable" relationships will likely vanish. When we follow Jesus, He asks us to speak the truth. Truth is divisive, but Jesus is better than all! He is our very great reward; He is constant; He is faithful. He comforts us in loss and nourishes in suffering. Our superficial friendships are not the mark of our success as Christ-followers. Our commitment to Jesus, our willingness to suffer for His sake, to minister for His sake, to lose for His sakeóthose are the hallmarks of our relationships with Jesus. He is enough! Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 535 Registered: 8-2004  |
Yes. Sometimes our human failings drive wedges, but sometimes it is not our failings but the gospel of Christ itself. Well said Colleen! (and continuing to pray for you and Richard in your ministry there) Mary | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 211 Registered: 12-2004 |
Colleen, Thank-you for sharing from your heart. I want you to know that I feel your pain and understand your frustrations. You have addressed a lot of issues that warrant further analysis and discussion. You especially have identified some major challenges regarding friendships and relationships. Superficial vs Meaningful relationships, are they mutually exclusive? Do they each serve a purpose or role? Does the depth of our relationships influence the ability of the Holy Spirit to do his job? Do we judge the effectiveness of our witness by the response(positive or negative) that we feel from those in our influence, or can we just say to God, use me today, and Thy will be done... and actually accept that. When sharing the Good News of the Gospel, do we have to share the Bad News about Adventism, or will that become apparent to those who are truly seeking and investigating? Is it our job to convict, or is that the role of the Holy Spirit? I am sorry for the in between patients randomness of this post. Hopefully I can help come up with something helpful later this evening. Thank-you again for sharing, and I hope you recognize how much I have appreciated this forum over the last couple of years. It is good to have a place to ask tough questions without the fear of consternation and judgement. Randy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4160 Registered: 12-2003 |
Randy, good questions. I would answer your questions as follows: The depth of our relationships does NOT influence the ability of the Holy Spirit to do his job. We cannot judge the effectiveness of our witness (at least in a lot of cases!) by the responses we feel from those we talk to. We must offer ourselves as living sacrifices and trust that God will do His will whether or not we see what that means from His perspective. It is not necessary to share the "bad news" about Adventism when sharing the "good news" of the gospelóunless the conversation warrants it. Sometimes it is absolutely necessary. Other times it is absolutely counter-indicated. It's a case-by-case situation. Of course, the Holy Spirit is the only One who can convict. We are only living sacrifices willing to speak as He leadsókeeping quiet when He directs, speaking out when He directs. There is no formula for how and when to speak. I believe that when we are born from above, we literally become God's mouths and hands and feet and heart, and we share as He moves. Behaving in obedience to the Spirit, however, presupposes that we are yielding our anger and guilt and shame to Him. If we feel it's our "right" to express whatever we feel, we're not deferring to Him. Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 541 Registered: 1-2003 |
Colleen your last post was well spoken. Richard (t)  rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 457 Registered: 7-2000 |
Colleen, your comments about superficial relationships not lasting are right on. Adventists are wrapped up in Adventism and if you aren't also wrapped up in it, the relationship really begins to die. Further, I've never found a way to discuss the problems of Adventism without going to the root of the problem---the refusal of Adventists to believe in verbal, plenary inspiration which in turn enables them to twist the Word into something unrecognizable. The individual responsible for this was E.G.White, and this doctrine brands her as surely a false prophet as Joseph Smith. Until an Adventist recognizes that there is a problem with SDA interpretation of the Bible, there is really no grounds for conversation. We just wind up talking past each other about a totally different book. L.V. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1339 Registered: 10-2004  |
I believe that in many cases no matter how well you present the Gospel to an Adventist, they may assume that what you are saying is not really any different than what they believe (especially when they use the same terminology with different definitions), unless you make it clear to them that it goes against the SDA teachings. So, no I don't believe that you can just be "grace-centered" and "positive" and not "negative" at all. The Gospel always has to include the negative--sin, death, eternal hell, judgement, and wrath. And for Adventists in particular, there is a certain level of being "negative" and "judgmental" with regard to SDA teaching that is usually necessary to effectively communicate the truth. Of course, we should always share in love. And it is also important to show the JOY, peace, and hope/confidence/assurance that we have found in Jesus. But if we present the real gospel of grace so that they understand what we're trying to communicate, most Adventists will not be happy about it. And this is very sad, because if they have never heard, understood, and believed the Gospel then this means that they are not saved--and yet they close their ears and refuse to listen to the truth. They believe that the Gospel is a deception from Satan.  But Jesus did say that the truth is supposed to divide. So I think we should be more surprised if we don't lose our friends! And regarding close friendships, Paul says:
Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4161 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremy, thank you for saying that so well. You're absolutely right about Adventists not understanding when we talk about the gospel unless we clarify that we don't mean the same thing their words mean! It is sad and frustrating but trueóand sometimes the Holy Spirit nudges us to insist they hear us articulate the REAL gospel, and sometimes He nudges us just to stay quiet. But He does nudge us to speak the hard truthósometimes even when it would be easier not to. His timing is everything. Colleen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4162 Registered: 12-2003 |
Loneviking, you're right about the bottom line. Because of the dichotomy between the Adventist view of Biblical inspiration and the orthodox Christian view, we do end up speaking right past each other. Colleen |
