Post Number: 2
|Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 1:23 pm: || |
I am new to this forum and dont even know if I am posting this right (computer dummy). My question is are there any former SDA members who keep the seventh day sabbath, only leaving the church? My son became sda several years ago (I am not), and has given me some literature to read. I have been reading the Bible and it looks to me as if we should observe a sabbath but am much too new at this to be sure...I joined him and his family at sabbath services one day and was put off by the attention the speaker gave to Ellen White. It reminded me of Christian Scientists and their Mary Baker Eddy.
Post Number: 85
|Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 3:09 pm: || |
Welcome Peperpat! I guess there are former members of SDA that keep the 7th day Sabbath, some for example goes to 7Th day Baptist Churches to ease their transition to mainstream ortodox christianity.
As I read the word of God it clearly states that, in no way are Christians obligated to keep the 7th day Sabbath.
A good starting point to know more about the Sabbath is: http://www.sdaoutreach.org/Home/Sabbath/tabid/53/Default.aspx
Jesus is the fullfilment of the 7Th day Sabbath, he provides all the rest that we need and its not just one day a week, its now, today. Every moment of our lives.
Section II in this online book is also a good starter to grow in your knowledge of the Sabbath: http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/SCT/
The reading of the bible is realy key here, if you dwell to much in the old testament you will be blinded by the law. Only Jesus, with his teachings in the new testament can cast light on this subject.
I pray for you and your son right now, that you may find all the rest and comfort you need in Jesus and that the Holy Spirit of his may guide you into the Truth about the 7Th day Sabbath and SDA.
Feel free to ask any questions here. I'm not a former SDA myself, but I'm trying to be a friend to a SDA and just be there for her.
She is very attached to the Sabbath and I think she is speaking more about the Sabbath than Jesus Christ. The Sabbath can be dangerous and actually turn your focus away from God. (it sounds weird don't it, but I think its true).
Jesus is greater than Great!
Post Number: 4292
|Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 3:47 pm: || |
Welcome, Peperpat! It's great to have you here. We look forward to getting to know you!
Mwh is right about the Sabbath. In reality, Jesus fulfilled the law and ushered in the New Covenant foretold in Jeremiah 31.
I suggest you read, on this website on the "Stories" page, the story by Greg and Paula Taylor for a brief discussion of his study on the Sabbath. Greg was an Adventist pastor who loved the church and loved the Lord, but he couldn't understand why his church wasn't growing. He walks through a brief study of his digging into God's word to find answers. Two other books I recommend that will help you understand the New Covenant (which is, by the way, the underlying theme of the New Testament), are Greg Taylor's book, "Discovering the New Covenant" and Dale Ratzlaff's "Sabbath in Christ". Both are available here: www.LifeAssuranceMinistries.com.
Looking forward to talking to you more!
Post Number: 3
|Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 4:56 pm: || |
Thank you both for your welcome and sources of information. My son and his wife are deeply sincere about sda beliefs. There has been such a change in them over the past few years, and since they live in another state, every time I do see them, it is a surprise. I will continue studying the sabbath teachings along with my husband, as he too is looking to see if we have missed the mark all these years! Thanks again!
Post Number: 2657
|Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 5:30 pm: || |
You are in the right place to ask questions. All of us will pray for you as you study SDA beliefs. Pray a lot, that you do not get caught up in it and ask God to show you the truth in the Bible.
As always, God is so awesome.
Post Number: 9
|Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 7:36 pm: || |
Welcome Peperpat! Please study the websites shown above and the bible and come to your own conclusions. If you are convinced of the need for new covenant Christians to meet on Sat.,I would suggest a SDB church or another more mainstream evangelical church that has services on Sat or Sat night. Remember Romans 14:5. You are wise to stay far, far away from Ellen White! May God bless and the Holy Spirit guide your search for the truth! Rick
Post Number: 106
|Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 11:36 pm: || |
Peperpat, welcome to the forum. You have come to the right place with your questions. I'm glad the SDA church you attended held up EGW. Hopefully that will help scare you away from it. I am not SDA or former SDA either but I'm praying my daughter breaks up with her SDA boyfriend. I'll include you in our forum's Friday evening prayer chain. CW
Post Number: 4
|Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 4:55 am: || |
Thank you all for your prayers, I am fortunate to not be working right now so that I can devote time to study. One book my son gave me is "The 10 Commandments Twice Removed" (he also gave me "Pause for Peace") The question brought up is how could we observe only 9 commandments? This is tripping me up a bit. As for EGW I was told not to worry about her too much right now, her writings are much deeper. Are all SDA required to read her works?
Post Number: 335
|Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 7:46 am: || |
Peperpat, welcome and I pray that God will use your extra time for study for many wonderful purposes!
Along with the other good recommendations, here are a few articles that helped me out when I was studying the subject. I was also given "the 10 Commandments twice removed" by a family member and while the author follows the usual line of SDA prooftexting, I suggest that whenenver you find a passage referenced, you go back and read from the Bible several verses before and after what they quote. Many times you will find that the gist of the passage has a different meaning in context that what they are using it for. Also, a good slow reading of Romans and Galatians will benefit you incredibly during this time. My prayers are with you!
http://www.ratzlaf.com/lam_inc_.htm (there's several articles on different topics here...but I can't link them directly as my dial up doesn't seem to get the full access to the site anymore)
oh yeah, and here's a few Scripture passages to keep in mind as well:
Matthew 5 (actually, I think Dale Ratzlaff's book does the best on this text, but notice how the contrast is with Jesus standing at the top of the mountain and giving His "law" which in every way supersedes the requirements of the law of moses.) The adventist's in my family love these vs's: vs17 -19. Jesus however claims that nothing will pass from the law OR prophets until all is fulfilled. That means everything contained with in the law of Moses, from sacrificial stuff, to circumcision, to food laws, etc. Unless Christ fulfilled IT ALL, we're still bound by it all. Look up John 19:30 (here's a good overview http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/curryapp.htm)
Study Matt 12:1-14; Mark 2:23-3:6; Luke 6:1-11; Luke 13:10-17; Luke 14:1-6; John 5:8-18;John 7:19-24; John 9:14-16 These are all places where Jesus dealt with the Sabbath and more than often gave an "excuse" as to why He could break it. Notice especially John 5:8-18 where John writes that Jesus not only broke the Sabbath, but called Himself the Son of God.
2 Corinthians 3:4-17
Hebrews (all about how Jesus surpassed everything and is a better...law,high priest, sabbath, sacrifice, covenant...)
Sorry for the length...just wanted to give you some ideas of where to find some info to help balance the SDA perspective you're getting
Post Number: 503
|Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 8:08 am: || |
Welcome Peperpat! Your question of "how could we observe only 9 commandments" is exactly the question I used to have. It just didn't make sense to me that only 1 was done away with, or "fulfilled" for the other way of stating it.
What I've learned through studying the Bible in context (not the prooftext way), is that the 10 Commandments as part of the 613 Torah Laws, were all completely fulfilled in Jesus. SDA's will try to make a big deal about how the 10 C's were placed inside the ark, and the rest of the laws were placed outside the ark. For one thing, the Jews never divided up the laws between moral and ceremonial. The 10 C's were a summary of the entire 613. In fact if you read the other laws, you can see various of the 10 C's interspersed throughout with more detailed stipulations. Leviticus 23 is especially interesting, because it places the 7th day Sabbath right in there as a part of the many religious festivals and feasts. That means the 7th day Sabbath command (see verse 3) was also placed outside the ark along with all the other "ceremonial" laws.
Another thing to keep in mind is that most, if not all, of the time in the NT, when the word Law is used it is talking about the entire 613 Torah Laws. When the word Commandment is used, it is actually the Greek word "teaching" and is referring to the teachings of Jesus.
Matthew 5:18 says "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." SDA's like to insist the 10 C's can't pass away because heaven and earth are still here, but they ignore "until all is accomplished." All was accomplished by Jesus on the Cross. Has even one thing passed from the 613 Torah Laws? If even one thing has passed away (obviously we don't sacrifice lambs anymore), then all has been accomplished, all has been fulfilled. Another interesting, related question: If SDA's make such a big deal about the 10 C's stay because they were inside the ark, and the rest are fulfilled because they're outside, they why do they still insist on tithing?
2 Corinthians 3:4-17 is very interesting to read. It certainly was never mentioned or discussed in any SDA classes I was in. It calls "the letters engraved on stones" the "ministry of death." If further says this ministry of death fades away and is surpassed by the ministry of the Spirit. I like the part where it says "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
Back to your question of why Christians observe 9 of the 10 Commandments. It appears like Christians "observe" 9 of the 10 Commandments, and those 9 are restated here and there in the New Testament. But that is not our basis - we are not observing anything. Instead, we are under the ministry of the Spirit who writes the Law of Christ on our hearts and gradually transforms us to love others. Have you noticed how you can, at least briefly, "observe" any and all of the 10 C's without having any love? You can refrain from stealing or killing, but still hate others.
Contrary to what SDA's teach, the 10 C's never were the "perfect and eternal transcript of God's character." Instead, like many other teaching tools in the 613 Laws, they only reflected a hint of God's character. God is so much more, because he is perfect Love!
Galatians 3:15-29 is also a great section to read. Why would the 10 C's be our standard when they (as part of the Law) didn't come until 430 years after the promise to Abraham, and was only until the Seed came?
I know this is a little long, but it only covers some of the main highlights. Please spend most of your time studying the Bible instead of letting SDA propaganda tell you how to think. Read for yourself what the Bible says and ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand it.
Post Number: 504
|Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 8:22 am: || |
Another question. If the Sabbath is such an important law that our salvation depends on it, how come no one has a clue how to really "keep" it today? There sure is a lot of variation out there. Why isn't there any instruction in Paul's letters to the Galatians (or anyone else) how to "keep" the Sabbath? He certainly has plenty of instruction on loving others. Galatians 5:19-23 gives a pretty good list of various sins (deeds of the flesh) and virtues (fruit of the Spirit). The Gentiles would certainly need counsel and detailed instruction about the importance of the Sabbath, while everyone already knows it's wrong to hurt other people (even atheists know that!). And yet Paul is completely silent about observing Sabbath!
Post Number: 18
|Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 9:24 am: || |
I am a former SDA and it wasn't until I stopped believing the seventh-day Sabbath was supposed to be an actual day of rest every week that I said I was no longer SDA. I had long since disagreed with many other SDA beliefs.
As others have posted I do believe the Bible clearly states in Colosians 2 and Hebrews 3-4 that the Sabbath was a type and shadow of Jesus. We now enjoy a Sabbath rest everyday. In resting from our labors (in trying to be good enough for God) we enjoy our Sabbath rest.
If you read about the covenants in 2 Corinthians 3 and Hebrews 8 it talks about the New Covenant and how the old one is obsolete. We know the Old covenant and the 10 commandments are the same from these texts in Exodus and Deuteronomy:
27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenantóthe Ten Commandments.
The Radiant Face of Moses
29 When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the LORD.
12 Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words but saw no form; there was only a voice. 13 He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets. 14 And the LORD directed me at that time to teach you the decrees and laws you are to follow in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess.
Post Number: 444
|Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:12 am: || |
You did a good job. I never thought about the tithing.
Post Number: 4300
|Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 11:09 am: || |
Raven, really good post! And Esther, too.
Peperpat, there's an article, in addition to all those mentioned above, that I think would also be helpful. It's in a past edition of Proclamation, and it's entitled, "The Unity of the Law: What Was Nailed To the Cross?" It's by MacGregor Wright, a Bible scholar who has never been Adventist. It is a very clear explanation of the fact that the 10 Commandments are part of the entire law, and that entire law was fulfilled and nailed to the cross in the body of Jesus, the Living Torah. You can access it here: http://formeradvent.temp.powweb.com/Proclamation2005_JulAug.pdf
(Message edited by Colleentinker on July 11, 2006)
(Message edited by Colleentinker on July 11, 2006)
Post Number: 505
|Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 1:55 pm: || |
Peperpat, regarding your question
No, SDA's are not required to read her works. However, the General Conference (church headquarters) has increased the push for EGW even more in recent times. I think they have an effort underway to make sure EGW books can be in every SDA home - I'm not sure exactly what that entails.
As for EGW I was told not to worry about her too much right now, her writings are much deeper. Are all SDA required to read her works?
Regardless of whether or not SDA's ever look at an EGW book, they are still getting a heavy dose of her simply by immersing themselves in SDAism. I say this because the Sabbath School lessons are filled with EGW quotes. Almost every way an SDA thinks through or interprets anything in the Bible is filtered by the way they learned it through EGW's teachings (even if those teachings were only heard instead of read). Nearly every sermon or SDA-published book is also influenced in some way by the SDA EGW-influenced paradigm.
It doesn't surprise me you were told not to worry about EGW right now. That is typically said because no SDA wants to scare off someone over her. In past generations, a person had to publically accept EGW's writings to be a baptized SDA. Today, even though it's still in the official beliefs, it gets glossed over and many become SDA members thinking it's okay to completely ignore EGW. But she can't be completely ignored because she is in and through all of it, realized or not.
Post Number: 445
|Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 2:04 pm: || |
Raven, don't you think that they have to put White in the quarterly or they could not support their doctrine on the Bible alone?
By the time one is regularly going to the SDA orginization they have heard so much of her that it is very hard to desinguish what is Biblical and what is EllenWhitical.
Post Number: 506
|Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 2:11 pm: || |
Absolutely, Violet! It's even harder to distinguish between the Bible and EGW when it all comes from avenues outside of specifically reading EGW. If it came from the Sabbath School lesson, which only used the Bible and the lesson quarterly, then it's easy to assume everything you learned came straight from the Bible.
Post Number: 1393
|Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 6:08 pm: || |
I also recommend the http://www.sdaoutreach.org/ site, especially the audio messages on the Gospel and the Covenants, the Law, Sabbath, etc.
Also, http://www.ellenwhite.org/ and http://www.truthorfables.com/ have a wealth of information showing that Ellen G. White is a false prophet. I must warn you that it's very dangerous to get under her hold, as you are dealing with powerful demonic spirits (1 Timothy 4, 1 John 4). It's impossible for people to get out from under the hold except by the Holy Spirit's divine intervention.
(Message edited by Jeremy on July 11, 2006)
Post Number: 87
|Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 6:53 am: || |
Some more links:
Post Number: 35
|Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 7:13 pm: || |
Thank you for your post above, and especially the points you made:
"That means the 7th day Sabbath command (see verse 3) was also placed outside the ark along with all the other "ceremonial" laws" and that, correctly, the 10 are a summary of the 613.
Those are great points, very helpful!
I'm so thankful for the Lord and the peace and rest that has finally come to my heart. I praise God everyday for the Lord Jesus, the joy of salvation we can know right now, PRAISE GOD, and for the bright future we have in Jesus.
Post Number: 70
|Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 1:57 pm: || |
I recebntly submitted my letter of resignation, (waiting for the stall tactics to end) and I have been attending a super nice Messianic Jewish Congregation. As far as EGW, I NEVER, EVER got hooked on her like allot of SDA's do. If anyone has any questions about how the GC works please e-mail me. I am a former employee there, worked in there "security" dept for over 6 years. The stories I could tell!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post Number: 71
|Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 1:58 pm: || |
I recently submitted my letter of resignation, (waiting for the stall tactics to end) and I have been attending a super nice Messianic Jewish Congregation, so yes, I still observe the 7th day Sabbath. As far as EGW, I NEVER, EVER got hooked on her like allot of SDA's do. If anyone has any questions about how the GC works please e-mail me. I am a former employee there, worked in there "security" dept for over 6 years. The stories I could tell!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post Number: 1397
|Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 2:43 pm: || |
Mwh, thanks for listing this link: http://www.thinkabouteternity.org/SDA/SDAFrameset.htm
Peperpat, I think the audio presentations at the above link would be very helpful to you. Timothy Oliver (who also works for Watchman Fellowship), grew up SDA and is also a former Mormon. He does a great job showing what Adventism is like and explaining some of their major doctrines accurately and clearly, to a non-SDA audience.
(Message edited by Jeremy on July 13, 2006)