| Author | Message | ||
| Randyg Registered user Username: Randyg Post Number: 256 Registered: 12-2004 |
Last month I had the privilege of accompanying my wife to the NAD Adventist Teachers convention in Nashville. It was great to visit many friends from years past including some of my academy teachers from the mid 70's. While she attended meetings, I cruised the Opryland Hotel and the large onsite ABC store. Since I have become interested in Remnant theology, I purchased Clifford Goldstein's book The Remnant published in 1994 to find out his take on the subject. As Mr. Goldstein is probably Adventism's most vocal Apologist, and the most ardent mouthpiece for the GC, I was curious to see what he had to say. I have read some of his pieces in the Adventist Review, and thought it would show current Adventist thought on the subject. This is not meant to be a book review, however I was quite taken aback by much of what he said. The first half of the book gives a fairly good description of the Remnant peoples in the Old Testament. On numerous occasions the author noted how even though the people wondered away from God's ideal they remained His Remnant. The second half of the book I found to be somewhat more challenging. I have often thought of Clifford Goldstein as somewhat of an intellectual, and even scholarly. After reading this book I have had to reconsider. I am going to share a few of the passages that I had real trouble with. I understand that everything must be considered in context, however you can order the book if you feel I have misrepresented anything. page 77, "But how could the Seventh-day Adventist Church be the remnant? How could a movement troubled with so much turmoil, dissension, and bickering be the remnant? Can a cold, dead, asleep church be the remnant? Or one filled with legalism, worldliness, divorce, adultery, and sexual misconduct? ... Or one that argues over almost every doctrine?...OF COURSE IT CAN! Look at ancient Israel." Page 78 "The remnant, as a corporate entity, has never been defined exclusively by the holiness of its members, but rather by the advanced light it possessed."... "It is the same with Adventism. No matter how much hypocrisy, compromise, sin, and apostasy there may be in this movement, it has been blessed with a fuller revelation of Christ and of present truth than any other corporate faith. ....What's crucial is that the Seventh-day Adventist Church, like ancient Israel, has been given far more light than any other faith, and that light alone gives it corporate remnant status." Page 89 "Even if some Seventh-day Adventists become proud, have a holier than thou attitude, or become exclusive because of the church's remnant status or prophetic calling, these problems don't invalidate that status or prophetic calling" Page 92 "No doubt, the Lord has true followers in every religion. That's not the point. The point is that no other corporate body approaches the present truth that Adventism has." Page 98 "Indeed, however pathetic--even "wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked"--we are, the Adventist church remains the remnant church, if for no other reason than it possesses the remnant truth. No matter how many child molesters, libertines, hypocrites, fanatics, or other unconverted degenerates suck the power and spirit out of the body, we are still corporately the remnant because we alone have the remnant truth. And it is ultimately truth, not holiness, that distinguishes God's corporate remnant people today just as it did in the days of ancient Israel." Page 103 "But even watered down, the three angels' messages are closer to present truth than what many other churches are teaching. No matter how bad the church supposedly is, the Lord is still using it--and it alone--to bring this special message to the world." Page 109-10 "No question. a separation will occur within us. Too much sin, coldness, and evil exists for the Lord to take the corporate body through to the kingdom as it now stands. And who knows if the corporate, organized Seventh-day Adventist church body will even exist in the end. Ultimately the faithful will either be in jail, dead, or in hiding. It hardly sounds as if the organization is going to remain as it now is." Page 119 "There's no little hypocrisy in those who separate from the body because it isn't following counsels, when some of the clearest counsel tells us not to leave. By the grace of God, the only way I'd leave the Adventist church is if I was thrown out--and I would still send it my tithe! If the Adventist church sent my tithe money to Saddam Hussein, I'd continue to be a Seventh-day Adventist." Page 120 "No matter what anyone, anywhere, in the church does, no matter how much apostasy, corruption, scandal, and sin exists in the church--the truth remains the truth. No one in this church can do anything to nullify, or even alter, one aspect of the three angels' messages any more than a conference-committee decision could alter the sun in its course." Page 127 "Knowing and loving God is linked to keeping His commandments, and obedience to His commandments is one of the characteristics of His final remnant" So folks, there you have it. The Reader's Digest edition. I am sad ...for my friends and family who live in fear. I am sad that this is the Adventist Church's most vocal apologist take on what being part of God's remnant is. Thank-you for letting me share, I have been troubled ever since I read this book. Thank-you Jesus for allowing me a sinner, to be a part of your remnant without having to believe all the nonsense. Bless be the tie that binds, our hearts in Christian love, Randy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4645 Registered: 12-2003  |
My goodness, Randy, thank you for sharing this, and how horrifying it is. Goldstein is looking at remnant not from a Biblical, new Testament perspective but from a pretty Jewish-flavored view of who God's people are. Goldstein, who is a Jew, seems to have transferred his world view to Adventismónot a big leap, considering Adventism essentially claims to have replaced the Jews. As an example, I spoke a few years ago with a Jewish woman who was not an Orthodox Jew by any means, but leaned rather toward the mystical, Caballah side of Judaism. Yet she had a distinctly Jewish cosmic view. She told me one evening that all Jews HAVE the Holy Spirit BECAUSE they are Jews. They are God's own peopleónever mind the NT, never mind the secular unbeliefóthey are God's people, and as such they HAVE the Holy Spirit. Goldstein's comments evoke her beliefs in my mind. I am struck by perhaps the central glaring fallacy of Goldstein's argument. It is two-pronged. First, he ASSUMES without any Biblical support that Adventism's distinctives ARE the truth. The revelations of Ellen, therefore, he identifies as truthóend-time revelations about Christ and "advanced light". My goodness!! Second, he identifies the mark of God's people as the possession of TRUTH. He claims that TRUTH is what made Israel God's remnantóand now Adventism. On the contrary, God's sovereign choice is what made Israel God's remnant people. He chose and called Abraham, Isaace, and Jacobósee Romans 9óand He created Israel and called them His people. Their "truth" was not their qualifier for remnant status. God's choice and God's promises are what made them the remnant. Further, Goldstein is totally ignoring the New Testament. It clearly and repeatedly defines God's remnant people as those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thus are marked with the seal of His Holy Spirit. Period. Possession of objective "truths" do not qualify people as God's. Only knowing Jesus and being born from above qualifies them. Goldstein is rationalizing so badly that I'm surprised the editors at the Reveiw and Herald (or the Pacific Press, whichever publishes his stuff) allow his manuscripts to go into print without significant rewriting. He is unbiblical, he ignores the NT, he sets up false assumptions without questioning them (i.e. "present truth" and 'advanced light'), and he openly embraces doctrines which are not derived from the Bible and calls them special end-time revelations. I don't actually know Mr. Goldstein, but just reading his stuff, I'm tempted to think he doesn't even believe it himself. It's too disingenuous; he makes too many false assumptions and hangs his arguments on them. I find myself wondering if he finds Adventism bankrupt but can't admit it, especially after leaving Judaism for it and making such a name for himself. He is a bright manóbut his writing illustrates Paul's points in 1 Corinthians 1 and 2 about worldly wisdom being foolishness to God. What you have shared, Randy, is absolutely horrifying and leads to despair. It's the desperate clutching of a drowning man to a shipwreck, hoping to find shore. Colleen | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 144 Registered: 7-2005  |
Randy, thank you for sharing these quotes. I'm sure there are many in Adventism who feel the same as Goldstein does, that no matter how much corruption there is in the church, it's still the only one with the truth. Just before I read your post, I was in prayer, asking God to help me know what to think about my husband's fierce loyalty to Adventism. It's been almost a year since I quit Adventism for good, and I really want spiritual unity in my marriage. However, the thought of going back to church with my husband is so utterly repugnant to me. As I waited on the Lord to speak to my spirit, a scripture reference came into my mind. It was Romans 11:8. I looked up the verse in the Amplified Bible and read this about Israel: "As it is written, God gave them (an attitude) of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, [that has continued] down to this very day." The verses that follow talk about God's reason for doing this being to make Israel jealous and about Israel being cut off because of unbelief. Then I read on through to the end of Romans 12. The Lord especially highlighted to me Romans 12:16: "Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty (snobbish, high-minded, exclusive), but readily adjust yourself to [people, things] and give yourselves to humble tasks. Never overestimate yourself or be wise in your own conceits." I felt impressed that the Lord was telling me that the condition of many loyal SDAs is just like this stupor and that my strategy for living out my Christian life as the marriage partner of such a one is to practice Romans 12:16. I couldn't help noticing the stark contrast between Goldstein's words and the instruction to "be not wise in your own conceits." Honestwitness | ||
| Susan_2 Registered user Username: Susan_2 Post Number: 2392 Registered: 11-2002 |
"...corporate remnant status". He's got to be kidding! He is 100% correct that no other corporate body approaches 'truth' like the SDA does. What CG wrote is wat too far out. From my understanding of my own personal Bible studies I currently am under the belief that the remnant of the NT is the extremely close to God, prayful Christians. We are all saved as Christians by the sacrafice of Jesus. Yet, there are some who are so close to God that they move, live, breath their lives in His will. I know what I mean. I am having a hard time expressing it well. those are the ones I think of when I think of the remnant. Like, Mother Theresa. Folks who totally live for Jesus having given up their own lusts and desires completely. | ||
| Insearchof Registered user Username: Insearchof Post Number: 89 Registered: 8-2005 |
Mr. Goldstein sounds very Roman Catholic in how he views the 'church'. It amazes me that I never saw how similar the SDA church is to the RCC in so many things. ISO | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 174 Registered: 11-2005 |
Thanks, Randy for sharing these quotes. While still an Adventist, I asked my Pastor at the time, "What if the Adventist remnant ends up like the Israelites did?" This was back when I was convinced the Adventist church was the remnant, but also began to see so many social problems within the church (I hadn't really recognized the Biblical problems at this point). He said that at the end, the Church will become very divided in it's people, but the actual organization will remain faithful. He said Ellen White states that God will spare the Church by coming before they are able to destroy themselves (he actually shared the quote with me, but I don't remember where it was found). So he said, although it may seem as if we're heading the way of the Israelites in our increasing disobedience, and arrogance, etc, God will not allow His remnant church to get as bad as the Israelites. In talking with him about this more later (now from the point of view of not believing the Adventist church is the remnant), and talking with other people who have been my Biblical mentors in the past, they all share Goldstein's argument. I have heard it so many times. They feel, and have expressed, no matter how much corruption, sin, or whatever exists within the Church, the corporate denomination beliefs will remain pure. They will stand by those beliefs, and therefore the Church, until the end of time. Although I've heard these statements from others before, something struck me as I read in writing what he was saying. It is so apparent that the focus of his passion, his loyalty, his trust is in the wrong place. Nowhere (and granted these are just a few quotes from the book, but the general feeling is still the same) do I see him claiming allegiance to God. His loyalty is only to a "truth" of which is he unable to provide Biblical basis for. I would love to see a quote where he says, "I am willing to leave what I think I know for the sake of following God." His "by the grace of God, the only way I'd leave the Adventist church is if I was thrown out..." should read, "by the grace of God, if I find in my studies that God is showing me a different truth than what I believe now, even if it meant I had to leave the church, I would leave." How sad...At this point, I can't imagine putting my faith in a corporate entity. Can you imagine how scary that really is? Especially when you can see that corporate remnant falling apart around you? What does that mean for his belief system? No wonder he's so desperate to prove to himself that no matter what, the Church is good and faithful. I'm thankful for the fact that I can say, no matter what, GOD is good and faithful. | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 175 Registered: 11-2005 |
You know what? We REALLY need to be praying for Clifford Goldstein. Whether he realizes it himself or not, I think he's struggling. He's confused, and I think it's becoming more and more evident in his writings (maybe I'm just seeing it from a different perspective now). IF Clifford Goldstein would be able to commit his life fully over to Jesus alone, can you imagine? It would be powerful. The impact would be astounding. It would be like Paul! Grace | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2829 Registered: 3-2004  |
In the prayer circle we pray for all Adventists. Mention those specifically that we want, as each individual wants, and Goldstein can be among them. When I read things like what he wrote, my head just spins as it is so convoluted and mixed up and non Biblical. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4646 Registered: 12-2003 |
Grace, I've had the same conviction about Goldstein for quite a while. He is struggling, and I need to pray for him. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1504 Registered: 10-2004  |
I notice Goldstein didn't say: "No matter how many babies the Church murders, they are still the Remnant that keeps the commandments..." I've noticed that when they talk about how the "Remnant Church" has to keep "ALL the commandments" (meaning the Ten Words), they really just mean that they have to believe that the commandments should be kept--not that they have to actually keep them! Of course, they don't even believe in keeping the sixth commandment (talk about altering one of the "Ten Commandments"!) Jeremy | ||
| Jackob Registered user Username: Jackob Post Number: 332 Registered: 7-2005  |
For whom it yould be powerful? Paul expect the same impact on those who were witness of his former attitude of persecution, but,a s it tell us
I don't know how people will react in USA, but here he will be considered another proof of the fact the Ellen White was right, and a true prophet. After all does she not predict the fall of champions?
By other prophecies like this, Ellen White made people afraid of thinking. If someone like Goldstein will abandon the adventist theology, the people will be more afraid to even think about the subject. Goldstein will became an example of what can happen if someone is trying to engage in polemics with former adventists, to pay attention to what they said and try to respond them. It will mark a new era of obscurantism, or of fear, if it will have some impact. Actually Goldstein anticipated this situation in his book, the Remnant, saying that if he will abandon adventism, the people must remain faithfully. The entire book is written for the purpose of reducing the cognitive dissonance between the belief of being "the chosen people", someone special, and the widespread evidence that the church is no better than other churches. the same sins, the same problems, the same rate of divorce, the same ugly stories. it seems like their church is no better than the apostate churches, Babylon's daughers after adventism. For this reason Goldstein must change the definition of remnant, based on God's calling, made of elect people, and transform it in doctrinal holiness. He wants to restrict the options for adventists, to make them afraid of leaving the SDA church. He knows that many who are disspointed by the church are Sabbath keepers and dislike eternal hell. Avdentists are conditioned to have repulsion to a God who condemns sinners for all eternity, and Goldstein use this throwing in the face of doubters "Where are you going, to believers in eternal hell?" With other words, even if SDA church smells like a rat, it is still better than the rest of christianity. It has the right day for worship and dislike eternall hell, it still has a better view than the other churches. Goldstein's book was translated in the romanian language having an introduction written by my scholar friend. My scholar friend borrowed his approach and throw in my face a similar argument: "If you want to go to the protestant churches, they will carry you back to the Romacon Catholic church. If you are confortable with this thought, well, go ahead" I think that he pointed to me just exactly what it prevents many adventists to leave their church. The trend in the evangelical world is to have a belief and experience not so different than a roman catholic one. The confusion about the gospel is a serious obstacle in the way of adventists who are discovering the gospel and see the same confusion and compromise of the gospel in the evangelical world, as it is in their churches. For example, they see many self-proclaimed prophets, and think that they don't want to leave adventism just to exchange one false prophet with another. If they are to leave, they must found a place to arrive, and Goldstein uses the present condition of the evangelical world to keep people in adventism. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4648 Registered: 12-2003 |
Very interesting points, Jackob. There really is no sure way to avoid being decieved except by committing to Jesus alone, to being taught by Him through His word. I have a dear friend, an on-fire former Adventist Christ-follower, who, in her youth, went far from the Lord and immersed herself in just about every sort of indulgence she could. In her 20's she had her name removed from the church books because, she said, she couldn't live up to its expectations, so at least she would have the honesty to remove herself from it. In the early 80s she read Chuck Colson's book "Loving God" and accepted Jesus and was born again. She said she didn't know what she would do re: church, because she knew she couldn't re-embrace Adventism and live by its rules. She said she told God, "I'll do whatever YOU ask me to do, but it has to be YOU who tells me. I will not do something just because someone tells me I should." She said she'd completely "had it" with people telling her how to live as a Christian, and it had never worked before. The miracle was that God gave her a hunger for His Word. She began to read and study voraciously, and her hunger and commitment have not abated in over 20 years. I believe the only way anyoneóAdventist or notócan avoid being deceived is by desiring and committing to knowing Jesus ALONE as revealed in His Word alone. Other sources may be helpful, but not as primary or definitive sources. We must know what God says to us in His word, and we can totally trust His Spirit to teach us truth. Great points, Jackob. Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1506 Registered: 10-2004 |
I didn't realize how totally Goldstein contradicts himself. Look at what he's saying. He says that the remnant is identified by truth and not holiness. He says that the SDA church can still be the remnant no matter how sinful they are. But then he says: "Knowing and loving God is linked to keeping His commandments, and obedience to His commandments is one of the characteristics of His final remnant" So how is that not about holiness? How can they be "the remnant" no matter how sinful they are, if "the remnant" keeps, according to Adventism, the Decalogue?! It's a total contradiction! Also, has anyone else noticed how the SDAs change "remnant" into a singular rather than plural word? Revelation 12:17 talks about "the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus." (NASB.) Therefore, it would be incorrect to say the Remnant "keeps" rather than "keep." Jeremy (Message edited by jeremy on September 21, 2006) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4649 Registered: 12-2003 |
Ohh, Jeremyóthat grammatical point is so telling! I hadn't thought of that before! So true! Again, I'm also disturbed by the fact that Goldstein misses the entire new testament when describing the characteristics of the remnant. Having the faith of Abraham is, according to Romans, the charateristic of the remnant. And as you previously said, the REAL qualifier in their minds seems to be believing in the 10 Commnandments rather than keeping them. Indeed, how can one separate holiness from the remnant? Colleen | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 176 Registered: 11-2005 |
Good point, Jackob. I didn't think of it that way. I understand what you're saying. Adventism has made it's members scared to even "go there". I still feel though, and maybe I'm naively optimistic, that a true conversion by Goldstein would shake things up -- and many would at least approach "going there". There are the types of Adventists who stubbornly hang on to their beliefs, knowing all the arguments. They are actively choosing EGW's doctrine over Biblical doctrine. And then there are the Adventists that truly don't know better and have never really been exposed to "outside" doctrine. In other words, they have never really studied the Bible. They depend on their pastors, sabbath school teachers, and apologists like Goldstein. Of course there would be many that would see a Goldstein conversion as proof that Ellen White was right in her end time prophecies about "bright stars going out". But also, an event like that would cause many to question, maybe questioning for the first time. Who knows really? This is all just speculation when it comes down to it. I still feel that if Goldstein were to ever "cross over", it would impact many SDA members. Strangely, I don't really feel this way about Doug Batchelor or Samuele Bacchiochi so much. Regardless of the outcome (since it's impossible to know God's sovereign plan), I still feel strongly impressed to be praying for Goldstein. He needs to know that he needs to commit to Jesus alone. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 363 Registered: 10-2002  |
The "remnants" in Israel's history didn't seem to be as highly organized and organizationalized as Adventism. Rather, they were more like the food that wasn't eaten at dinner, which brings us back to the true flavor of the English word for "remnant" -- leftovers. They were the ones God didn't sweep away -- not because they were more righteous, but rather because God wanted to continue to show His mercy and someday from among them One would arise to show His complete mercy, and then after that some from among them would testify to Him and the mercy He has shown us all. "Remnant" as a principle would then mean something like, "the leftovers after God judges". Peter wrote that judgment is coming on the house of God first (before the world) and Paul said that God judges us so that we will not be condemned with the world (by "judging" it's best then to think of it as disciplining). We might say that God is doing and is going to do some major "pruning" in all of our lives, and in our corporate life together. Not everyone will accept the pruning, but for those that do, they'll be reduced to abiding in the Vine -- as Chip Brogden says, "reduced to Christ". Of all the identifiers of the "remnant", perhaps the one that should ring loudest in our ears is the one Jesus spoke, "By this all men will know you, if you love one another as I have loved you." Philip Yancey wrote that every religious group tries to "out-truth" one another, but you never see churches trying to "out-grace" one another. How often do any of us do that? But that is the real meaning of the "remnant" calling above all others. It's beautiful, insultingly simple, incredibly humbling, and it's something that leaves absolutely no room for boasting about who we are or what "truths" we know... rather it only leaves room for letting Christ be everything to each of us and loving each other with Christ's love. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2832 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thank You Agapetos, I really like the way you explained remnant. It sounds like what I believe. Diana | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 2051 Registered: 3-2005 |
I agree with Grace and Colleen that Clifford Goldstein should have our prayers. He is a convert from Judaism, and somehow, I believe he is a genuine Christian who is confused, but I think more than that he is conflicted. Here is a commentary from Clifford Goldstein on the Investigative Judgment from the Spectrum website: http://www.spectrummagazine.org/onlinecommunity/sabbathschool/060918goldstein.html When I read this, I sense someone who is in conflict, as the cognitive dissonance from what he knows to be true, and what he must say in his official position is interesting and painful to read. Stan | ||
| 91steps Registered user Username: 91steps Post Number: 101 Registered: 8-2005  |
Folks, as a former GC employee, I can tell you that the bulk of the "mouth pieces" for the GC are interested in their own benefit. If you were to look at the cars the "elected" officials drove you would fall over!!! Cliff Goldstein wants to sell books, that is all. I will not go into details with my run-ins with him, but lets say he thinks he can run on water!!! | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2834 Registered: 3-2004 |
He doesn't just walk on water, he runs!!! That is sad. Let us pray for him in our prayer circle. Diana | ||
| Mwh Registered user Username: Mwh Post Number: 168 Registered: 4-2006  |
Just read a good article on the remnant being Jesus in Proclamation. Everybody can be the remnant, if they are in Jesus. Thus the remnant is reduced to one person Jesus. I like to just answer Jesus to every question, Sabbath .. oh Jesus ... The keys to the kingdom of God ... oh Jesus ... The remnant ... oh Jesus .. life .. oh Jesus ... The truth ... oh Jesus etc etc. | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 141 Registered: 7-2004 |
It sounds as if Clifford is clinging to a sinking raft, totally disregarding that Jesus is the Saviour, not the raft! His statements are bizarre (doesn't care if money is going to Saddam, doesn't care if the church is full of corruption) He just sounds like he is tired of all the accusations against his church, he is going to go ahead and state all of the problems, and defend it as it is going down, no matter what. It isn't about the denomination!!! It is about a saving relationship with Jesus Christ who loves all of the adventists, and all of us enough to come save us. We cannot cling to this raft and feel safe! Jesus is there for us! | ||
| Freeofe Registered user Username: Freeofe Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2005 |
Randy, thank you for posting this! Goldstein is just parroting EGW, imo. Like you, I don't see him as scholarly. Adventists should save their money and just dig out their dusty EGW books. I think the following quote from EGW fits into this discussion: Testimonies for the Church, Volume 3, page 492: "I have been shown that no man's judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any one man. But when the judgment of the General Conference, which is the highest authority that God has upon the earth, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be maintained, but be surrendered." If one truly believes this, I can understand the fear of leaving "the remnant." I just find this quote so ironic, given the traditional Adventist views in regards to "the Papacy." I myself used to believe the church would "go through" and I needed to stick with it. I've since realized that Jesus alone is what I must cling to! Praise God! | ||
| 91steps Registered user Username: 91steps Post Number: 108 Registered: 8-2005 |
Folks, most of the elected officials at the GC ONLY care about their own personal gain, NOT about winning souls to Christ. |
